The 'freedom' our troops are dying for?

[Makalakumu]

You are making one assumption: that they want your different way of living.

Then so be it. Why do our soldiers have to be the guys with the guns telling others how to organize their lives? What would you do if some folks rampaged down your neighborhood killed some friends and family members and then told you that you couldn't live your sinful wasteful consumptive lifestyle because you were killing the Earth?

It's that simple. Plenty of people think American Pigs are wrecking the Earth for future generations. Plenty of people think that the way the Afghans want to organize their lives is terrible. I disagree with the sentiment that one group of people should be allowed to enforce their way of life on another group of people via the rifle.

If you value freedom at all, then you must be willing to accept that people are going to make choices that are different from yours. If you value freedom and you disagree with someones choices, then you have the freedom to choose NOT to have anything to do with that group of people. I do not believe that social change needs to birthed in a pool of blood.

 

[FieldDiscipline]

Hearts and minds, Tez?
While we all agree that it is great to be loved. If you cannot be loved, feared runs a close second. When you've got them by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow.

I'm sure the Israeli's would have an input on that.

WE HAVE NOT HAD ONE TERRORIST INCIDENT ON THE UNITED STATES SINCE WE WENT TO WAR WITH THE TERRORIST GLOBALY.

The rest of the world has had plenty. Of particular note Madrid (ISAF country) and London (ISAF Country).

 

[Tez3]

The point of hearts and minds isn't an airy fairy, lets all be friends thing, it's a hard nosed experience led policy to safeguard our future. After the first world war Germany was left bankrupt and demoralised, it didn't take long for people to capitalise on this and the Nazi party with Hitler at its helm took over and engulfed the world in war.
Hearts and minds is why the British were successful in Malaya with less troops than America had in Vietnam where the Americans were not successful. 35,000 British soldiers as opposed to half a million US soldiers as well as others.
The British empire is much derided these days probably quite rightly but one thing we have learned is to deal with insurgencies. The Malayan insurgency like the Northern Ireland conflict has never been treated as conventional wars. proganda, psychological warfare and the training of soldiers to deal with guerilla warfare was used rather than the conventional means of carpet bombing etc. Good intelligence being more valuable than overwhelming firepower.

Afghanistan is no different. Hearts and minds brings good intel which is invaluable, it has benefits for the locals of course but much more so for us. Far better to have them with us than against us.
Being feared will only work in the short term, ask yourself how scared Americans were of the British soldiers before the War of Independence, did having the redcoats there cow them or make them more determined to fight? resistance networks have always been active however much the people may be scared. During the Blitz in London and other cities the massive bombing only made the Brits more determined not less. The bombings by the IRA and now the Islamic extremists have the same effect.

I want us to be seen to be the ones who have the moral high ground but I'm also realist enough to know that with that we have to be strong and hard headed. Hearts and minds works, it has the effect that we don't have to behave as the terrorists do while destroying them. The benefits to the people is that less innocents get killed as well as less soldiers. That has to be a result.

 

[Andrew Green]

Yeah, you're right, we should have just ignored the opium farming, women abusing little bastards. How dare we decree that women have the same rights as men? If the Taliban decrees that women are property and not entitled to more consideration than livestock, well, shoot, that is just the way it is in Afghanistan and we have to respect that, the very idea of forcing them to treat all people as equal is just forcing our morals on them and therefore wrong.

How about if some other country had invaded the US because it didn't like slavary before the Civil war? Or didn't like the racism against blacks? Or didn't like that women didn't get a vote not too long ago?

I don't think it would have worked, probably pushed things farther back, rather then bringing them forward.

If you want to combat religious fundamentalism violence is not the way to do it, education is. Destroy the countries infrastructure and push everyone back into smaller and smaller communities and they will turn towards old beliefs more, not less.

Violence doesn't bend people to your will, whether you or right or wrong doesn't matter, all you will do is strengthen their own beliefs and get them to fear and hate yours.

 

[Sukerkin]

It amazes me that the same people who insist that the U.S. has no right to force it's culture on other nations, are the same people who insist that we must make Afganistan a democracy and instill " basic human rights" into the country.

{raises hand} I must be an oddity as I am 'affirmative' on the first and 'negative' on the second.

Our own countries are a mess, thanks in some part to the freedoms of 'Democracy' (Western style) and the aftermath of ideological/power-struggle wars combined in some caes with centuries old religious schisms.

So, as well as having no moral right to go in to other peoples home countries and tell them what forms of government they can have, I can well see why they would not want that anyhow.

Of course, Afghanistan is a more complex situation than any of us are painting it.

The Taliban are not quite the Spawn of Satan that the media fronting for our governments would try to make them out to be. Neither are they the sort of people I would like having power over me - mass executions not being an acceptable way of making a point in my book.

The present 'installed' incumbent 'government' has some views that are just as bad, if not worse, than the Taliban but their methods (the publicised ones at least) are a lot less unpalatable.

From what I have seen, as far as the people in Afghanistan are concerned, they would rather not have the Taliban in control and welcome the presence of our armed forces ... for as long as those forces are in place near them. Whether they are equally enthusiastic for the Taliban when they are the ones at hand I don't know.

Then you have to add in the 'commercial' layer to this. One reason why the Taliban is now 'out' is that they would not play ball with American interests. That could be viewed in several ways, depending on how you see the Great Game.

The most marked 'problem' to my mind tho' is the opium trade that the country now has. Before they were ousted, a beneficial side-effect of the Taliban was the severe reduction in the drug trade {http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=CHO20060921&articleId=3294}. Now their draconian regime is not 'keeping the lid on', production has soared. Where is all the money from that illegal trade ending up? As important is what would happen if it was stopped (granting some deus ex machina that could achieve that)?

So it would seem that "What to do about Afghanistan?" is not an easy thing to take a decisive view on at all.

 

[Tez3]

{raises hand} I must be an oddity as I am 'affirmative' on the first and 'negative' on the second.

Our own countries are a mess, thanks in some part to the freedoms of 'Democracy' (Western style) and the aftermath of ideological/power-struggle wars combined in some caes with centuries old religious schisms.

So, as well as having no moral right to go in to other peoples home countries and tell them what forms of government they can have, I can well see why they would not want that anyhow.

Of course, Afghanistan is a more complex situation than any of us are painting it.

The Taliban are not quite the Spawn of Satan that the media fronting for our governments would try to make them out to be. Neither are they the sort of people I would like having power over me - mass executions not being an acceptable way of making a point in my book.

The present 'installed' incumbent 'government' has some views that are just as bad, if not worse, than the Taliban but their methods (the publicised ones at least) are a lot less unpalatable.

From what I have seen, as far as the people in Afghanistan are concerned, they would rather not have the Taliban in control and welcome the presence of our armed forces ... for as long as those forces are in place near them. Whether they are equally enthusiastic for the Taliban when they are the ones at hand I don't know.

Then you have to add in the 'commercial' layer to this. One reason why the Taliban is now 'out' is that they would not play ball with American interests. That could be viewed in several ways, depending on how you see the Great Game.

The most marked 'problem' to my mind tho' is the opium trade that the country now has. Before they were ousted, a beneficial side-effect of the Taliban was the severe reduction in the drug trade {http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=CHO20060921&articleId=3294}. Now their draconian regime is not 'keeping the lid on', production has soared. Where is all the money from that illegal trade ending up? As important is what would happen if it was stopped (granting some deus ex machina that could achieve that)?

So it would seem that "What to do about Afghanistan?" is not an easy thing to take a decisive view on at all.[/quote]

I think many are taking a simplistic view to how to sort the problem out thats reminiscent of a Hollywood film. We go in, blast all the baddies, sort the people out with Burger Kings, MacDs and all the latest gadgets for which the populace fall down on their knees in gratitude swearing the west is the best ever. Trouble is, it's not going to happen like that, not in a million years.
For one thing telling the goodies from the baddies is a harder job than you'd think, it's not a case of if your not for us you're against bang bang you're dead. Invading a country (for whatever reason) and holding it is a lot harder than people imagine. I think the British are doing the best they can and the best in the circumstances. I don't however want to see what gains they have made and the sacrifices they have made to be thrown away.

 

[KELLYG]

TEZ3

First I am sorry that one of your students died. This has to be a terrible shock. I also have know people that have lost love one's in the current battles as well. I can also understand your anger at them dying and it seems that the progress that had been made in that country seems to be reversing itself. Which is unfortunate.

The thing that bothers me the most in previous post's (not from you) is all the American/Britt bashing that is going on. American pig's comes to mind. If we have similar language and beliefs and we can not get along how is anyone else to get along with us.

Let me ask you all this. What on an individual level can we do. If you could, would you force the people of Afghanistan to change there core beliefs. Isn't the protection of core/religious beliefs what well all want anyway. I AM NOT FOR ASSAULT/ABUSE/RAPE/OR ANY OTHER TYPE OF SUBJECTION OF WOMEN.

 

[Makalakumu]

American pig's comes to mind.

You have to look at the context of that comment. It was not meant to bash anyone.

Let me ask you all this. What on an individual level can we do. If you could, would you force the people of Afghanistan to change there core beliefs. Isn't the protection of core/religious beliefs what well all want anyway. I AM NOT FOR ASSAULT/ABUSE/RAPE/OR ANY OTHER TYPE OF SUBJECTION OF WOMEN.

This is the core of the point I was trying to make before. I am not for any of those things, but neither am I for trying to force a group of people to change their culture via rifle point. I don't think that one group of people should be able to do that to another group of people and I won't support it. In my mind, I can see that coming back through some karmatic wheel and I know that my kith and kin would not appreciate it.

 

[Tez3]

TEZ3

First I am sorry that one of your students died. This has to be a terrible shock. I also have know people that have lost love one's in the current battles as well. I can also understand your anger at them dying and it seems that the progress that had been made in that country seems to be reversing itself. Which is unfortunate.

The thing that bothers me the most in previous post's (not from you) is all the American/Britt bashing that is going on. American pig's comes to mind. If we have similar language and beliefs and we can not get along how is anyone else to get along with us.

Let me ask you all this. What on an individual level can we do. If you could, would you force the people of Afghanistan to change there core beliefs. Isn't the protection of core/religious beliefs what well all want anyway. I AM NOT FOR ASSAULT/ABUSE/RAPE/OR ANY OTHER TYPE OF SUBJECTION OF WOMEN.

Kelly, neither I nor any other British poster said anything about American pigs. No British poster has bashed America here at all, I think you need to reread the posts if you think we have. The British bashing was done by one poster who chose to bring up the second world war.
No I wouldn't force anyone to change their core beliefs, i have already said what I think should be done and it's in fact what our troops are doing out there as is British policy.
I am disturbed that you think any British person here are calling the Americans names.

 

[Gordon Nore]

We went to Afghanistan to get Bin Laden, stop Al-Qaeda, and destroy their training bases. The Taliban was the religious government that was harboring them....

...To think our GIs died for nothing is a mistake. WE HAVE NOT HAD ONE TERRORIST INCIDENT ON THE UNITED STATES SINCE WE WENT TO WAR WITH THE TERRORIST GLOBALY.

deaf,

Respectfully heard and duly noted. Now, consider for a moment that the Afghanistan mission is a multi-country affair with the backing of the UN. Other countries are serving there for many reasons, including the capture/killing of Bin Laden, the dismantling of Al-Qaeda and the Taliban, and the opportunity to bring peace and stability to region that has suffered greatly.

This isn't just about 'your GIs.' Other countries have lost people in Afghanistan too. My own country has continued to recommit to this effort, along with others. Lots of people around the world are in Afghanistan on principle -- and it is very discouraging to see the government of that country take a deliberate, calculated step backwards in human rights.

This is one time, I think, given the sacrifices being made in Afghanistan, that the allies should speak up and place some expectations on the region.

 

[5-0 Kenpo]

TEZ3


The thing that bothers me the most in previous post's (not from you) is all the American/Britt bashing that is going on. American pig's comes to mind. If we have similar language and beliefs and we can not get along how is anyone else to get along with us.

I don't see any of the things said here as bashing anyone's country or people. Questions have been raised, which were answered, to other people's ire.

It is quite easy for people to get upset when people refuse to look at context. My post, and the "American Pig" post are but some examples. At least here, we are "fighting" with words and concepts, and not bullets and bombs.

 

[KELLYG]

TEZ3
maunakumu stated

'It's that simple. Plenty of people think American Pigs are wrecking the Earth for future generations. Plenty of people think that the way the Afghans want to organize their lives is terrible. I disagree with the sentiment that one group of people should be allowed to enforce their way of life on another group of people via the rifle.'

Highlighted in red is pretty heavy yes?

I stated
TEZ3
'the thing that bothers me the most in previous post's (not from you) is all the American/Britt bashing that is going on. American pig's comes to mind. If we have similar language and beliefs and we can not get along how is anyone else to get along with us. '

 

[Grenadier]

Folks,

This thread is starting to drift away from the original topic. We have our differences, but arguing about name calling or accusations of name calling isn't being too helpful here.

That being said....

Please, return to the original topic.

-Ronald Shin
-MT Supermoderator

 

[Tez3]

TEZ3
maunakumu stated

'It's that simple. Plenty of people think American Pigs are wrecking the Earth for future generations. Plenty of people think that the way the Afghans want to organize their lives is terrible. I disagree with the sentiment that one group of people should be allowed to enforce their way of life on another group of people via the rifle.'

Highlighted in red is pretty heavy yes?

I stated
TEZ3
'the thing that bothers me the most in previous post's (not from you) is all the American/Britt bashing that is going on. American pig's comes to mind. If we have similar language and beliefs and we can not get along how is anyone else to get along with us. '

But you do know that Maunakamu is American don't you? And he explained his post in terms of context, he didn't call Americans pigs at all, he was simply saying thats how others ie the Afghans think of Americans ( and probably Brits) that way because they invaded their country.

 

[KELLYG]

It really does not matter where maunakumu comes from the term AMERICAN PIG, what ever the context is, said by whom ever sets my teeth on edge.

I am sorry if I overreacted.
​

How can we influence a people that has been invaded and occupied repeal over the course of history, to give up the ideals that they have held on to throughout.? How can we offer them the same freedoms when their own religious and cultural beliefs state otherwise? ​

​

 

[Tez3]

Kelly, I don't think you've over reacted I think you have misread the post.
the truth is that many people do think of us, that is Americans, British and Europeans as pigs and probably even worse than that. We are actively hated in some parts of the world. Thats a fact, a sad one but it's a fact. No one here was calling us, any of us, names, Maunakamu was pointing out the fact as I have. In fact I agree with his views completely. You made it seem as if he was British and calling Americans names, you said if we couldn't get on among ourselves how could we make peace anywhere else.
"The thing that bothers me the most in previous post's (not from you) is all the American/Britt bashing that is going on. American pig's comes to mind. If we have similar language and beliefs and we can not get along how is anyone else to get along with us."


Now what we do about the fact we are hated is a different matter. It would be much better to get back to the subject in hand.

 

[Tez3]

It really does not matter where maunakumu comes from the term AMERICAN PIG, what ever the context is, said by whom ever sets my teeth on edge.

I am sorry if I overreacted. ​

How can we influence a people that has been invaded and occupied repeal over the course of history, to give up the ideals that they have held on to throughout.? How can we offer them the same freedoms when their own religious and cultural beliefs state otherwise? ​

As I said before the British Empire is treated with derision these days but it has left us with a long history and experience in dealing with other cultures and beliefs and of working with them to the benefit of the majority. Probably more to the benefit of the British at the time but a side product of that was that trade and governing a country was easier all round if there was peace so great efforts were made to win hearts and minds of the local inhabitants. The motives at the times were obviously dubious but the means worked and still can.

 

[KELLYG]

out

 

[FieldDiscipline]

I am not trying to be a smart a@@. But can you give me and example of someting done to win hearts and minds of the local inhabitants.?

http://www.mod.uk/defenceinternet/defencenews/militaryoperations/kajakidamtroopsreturntobase.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kajaki_Dam

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/D...SoldiersHelpImproveEducationForAfghanKids.htm

http://www.salem-news.com/articles/december292006/tim_122906.php

(KABUL, Afghanistan) - It may be deceiving at first glance, but the health of Afghan nationals will advance significantly today.

A joint U.S./British medical assistance operation will treat nearly 400 people. For Oregon Guard Specialist Angel Morrow, it's better than treating people who were exploded by an IED.

 

[Tez3]

I am not trying to be a smart a@@. But can you give me and example of someting done to win hearts and minds of the local inhabitants.?

Kelly, I already have done on this thread! But here again

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/D...SoldiersHelpImproveEducationForAfghanKids.htm

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/D...mbatMedicsTreatTroopsAndCiviliansInSangin.htm

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/DefenceNews/MilitaryOperations/SappersBridgeOpensInGarmsir.htm

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/D.../BritishAndDanishSoldiersHelpReconstructGeres
http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/D...AfghanPoliceOfficersCompleteVitalTraining.htm
http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/D.../HelmandHospitalsBenefitFromRefurbishment.htm

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/D...sHelmandBecomeTheBreadbasketOfAfghanistan.htm

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/D...iness/AddressingWomensRightsInAfghanistan.htm
http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/D...ndBusiness/ImprovingHealthAccessInHelmand.htm

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/D...tions/RiflesHelpBringSeedToHelmandFarmers.htm


thats just this years work.