I can make a statement. You and I are done talking.
Afghan Civilians Slaughtered By U.S. Troops
- Thread starter MA-Caver
- Start date
I can make a statement. You and I are done talking.
OP
OP
SIGH! Tez... I'd be just as upset if it were a British soldier that had done this.
So shaddup about my being anti-brit okay!
So if you don't like what I got to say then click IGNORE... the same thing just happened to you.
twit
WC_lun
Senior Master
Honestly, I'm kinda suprised that we haven't seen a bit more of this. We put these men and women into areas that cause severe stress. We train them to kill. They go home and many times encounter different stressers. Many we ship right back to the war zone. It is unsuprising that once in a while, one of these people will lose thier sanity. This is a tragedy all the way around. It is a trajedy for the victim and thier families, the killer and his family, and the people in the future that will be harmed because of zealots putting a motive behind it.
Fine. But keep in mind this hits a lot closer to home for me than it does you. I serve on JBLM. I go to school in Tacoma.
I deal with guys with PTSD and TBI. It's my job to point out problem cases, and yes, I will use race, ethnicity, religion, previous deployments, and a number of other factors when briefing the Chaplain or the commander.
And when it comes to the 3-2 Striker BCT. The overwhelming majority of them are white.
This might offend you. But, frankly, I know the culture of JBLM better than you do. I'm a part of it. And yes, race is an issue on JBLM. It's an issue in Tacoma. It's an issue in Federal Way and Seattle.
And If I hear that a guy went nuts and shot up a bunch of people, from WASHINGTON... well, do the math.
Calling me a twit and putting me on ignore is childish tbh. I think you have totally misread my post, I said nothing about you being anti British, didn't even think it,certainly didn't mention anything about anything British anyway, you accused me of being anti American and you are the one slagging your troops off not me. If you get around to reading this, please re read what I said.
That it happens as rare as it does is a testament to my brothers in arms.
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The military are an easy target for some, in peace time having an army is a bit of an embarassment, no one knows what to do with them, come a natural or man made disaster or war though oh they are the publics darlings until the public decides it's all costing too much or it's not going how they thought it should after all they didn't realise people could die in a war then they start blaming the soldiers again. Kipling had the right of it all.
[h=2]Tommy[/h][h=5]By Rudyard Kipling, 1892[/h]I went into a public- 'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up an sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls behind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
They gave a drunk civilian roo, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fighting', Lord! They'll shove me in the stalls!
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
Why single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
[h=2]Tommy[/h][h=5]By Rudyard Kipling, 1892[/h]I went into a public- 'ouse to get a pint o' beer,
The publican 'e up an sez, "We serve no red-coats here."
The girls behind the bar they laughed an' giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an' to myself sez I:
O it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy go away";
But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins," when the band begins to play-
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's "Thank you Mr Atkins," when the band begins to play.
I went into a theatre as sober as could be,But it's "Thank you, Mister Atkins," when the band begins to play-
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it's "Thank you Mr Atkins," when the band begins to play.
They gave a drunk civilian roo, but 'adn't none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-'alls,
But when it comes to fighting', Lord! They'll shove me in the stalls!
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy wait outside";
But it's "Special train for Atkins," when the trooper's on the tide-
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's "Special train for Atkins," when the trooper's on the tide.
Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleepBut it's "Special train for Atkins," when the trooper's on the tide-
The troopship's on the tide, my boys, the troopship's on the tide,
O it's "Special train for Atkins," when the trooper's on the tide.
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.
Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy 'ow's yer soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll-
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes," when the drums begin to roll.
We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll-
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's " Thin red line of 'eroes," when the drums begin to roll.
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints,
Why single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;
While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy fall be'ind,"
But it's "Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind-
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's "Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind.
You talk o' better food for us, an' schools, an' fires, an' all:But it's "Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind-
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's "Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind.
We'll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don't mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow's Uniform is not the soldier-man's disgrace.
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Chuck 'im out, the brute!"
But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees!
But it's "Saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot;
An' it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' anything you please;
An' Tommy ain't a bloomin' fool - you bet that Tommy sees!
Tez has been right throughout this thread. She knows the topic and the people. Too many civilians just don't understand the modern military of democratic nations. They too often lump them in with the bad guy countries and their militaries which are little more than trained thugs with guns. Those men and women on the ground from the U.S., Britain and our other allies, are not alien creatures created in the lab. They are the people who live next door to you, who you grew up with and went to school with. Then they join up. They don't change them into monsters. Occasionally bad guys join up, but they were bad guys to begin with. If they weren't in the military they would be the guys in civilian jails. For a second, think of your best freinds. Then think about how they would be if they enlisted in the military. They would be the same people, but they would be in the military.
Dammit, tez, you got me misty-eyed!
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Tez, if your point is that we should be treating our people in the military as well as possible, to keep from having tragedies like this from happening, I agree whole heartedly.
I never liked Kipling though
Well that's one point I suppose but the real point is that as Bili says these people are you and you are them.
Kipling was very gung ho up to the time he lost his son Jack in the first world war, read his poem Jack and you will see what bereavement did to him.
1914-18
Have you news of my boy Jack?"
Not this tide.
"When d'you think that he'll come back?"
Not with this wind blowing, and this tide.
"Has any one else had word of him?: "
Not this tide.
For what is sunk will hardly swim,
Not with this wind blowing, and this tide.
"Oh, dear, what comfort can I find?"
None this tide,
Nor any tide,
Except he did not shame his kind--
Not even with that wind blowing, and that tide.
Then hold your head up all the more,
This tide,
And every tide;
Because he was the son you bore,
And gave to that wind blowing and that tide
The general feeling among the military here is that the American tours are too long, which cause stresses within families and marriage break ups. Our government have said several times they'd like our troops to do longer tours but everyone is against that. The strains on a family are huge enough when the tours are six months long, to have a year to 18 months tours would break a lot of families. I've seen the stress the children I teach in the martial arts club go through with parents in Afghan, we are building towards it again as our brigade goes out there on deployment from September.
Eventually, all of these guys will come home. Even the ones who could potentially flip out like this. I live surrounded by men who have been on multiple long tours. How should I defend my family if one of my neighbors attacks me?
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Big Don
Sr. Grandmaster
As yet, there is no proof he's been on multiple tours. Remember, after Hasan went on his murder spree at Ft Hood the claim was made his multiple tours drove him to it...
You are dodging the question.
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Big Don
Sr. Grandmaster
1. I wasn't dodging, I was ignoring. Because the idea that veterans are apt to come home and flip out is insulting.
2.How? You are a martial artist, defend yourself as you have trained, but, be aware that an armed man will kill an unarmed one with monotonous regularity...
billcihak said:
This is only partially true-I've seen guys-"nice guys"-turned into *******s who enjoyed brutalizing people after becoming cops or prison guards. It may be that it was always in them to enjoy it, and they just hadn't found an outlet for it, but that wasn't the only change, and they were no longer the "same people." Same with the military, in fact, though quite a few of those are the same guys, more than 30 years later.
We now know, though, that the alleged perpetrator of this incident was Robert Bales, a family man-a presumably, white, Christian, American family man, who has been in the service for 11 years, and who had completed three tours in Iraq before being deployed to Afghanistan.
Now, I don't care-out country's been "at war" for eleven years, not just longer than any war we've ever been in, but longer than any two of them combined, as long as one of them isn't Viet Nam, and, even in that one, no one got deployed more than once who didn't volunteer for another tour.This guys been deployed three times over the course of a decade-he's basically been at war for his entire married life, over the life of his oldest child, and for most of his thirties.
I've never been to war. I've never had the privilege of serving our country in the armed services. I'm not the smartest guy in the world, or even always the smartest guy in the room. I'm not even a psychiatrist, but I know that's gotta change some people, so that they're "not the same people."
Not the same Robert Bales at all, I'd venture.
People 'flip out', they can be service people or they can be civilians, they can be police officers or medics. Anyone can suffer from PTSD who's been through a trauma. Anyone can get mad at the world and try to destroy it. Police officers, firemen and medics deal with as many disturbing scenes and circumstances as service people do. We can't say all service people will flip, we can't say they won't. What we need to do is look at things in a calmer manner and stop looking for eay answers. Blaming service people is an easy option and absolves everyone else from any potential blame. The thing about service people however is that on the whole they are more disciplined than most civilians. Shootings like this don't happen often whatever some may think, perhaps less than in civilian life. I think I would worry about muggings, rapes and other violent crimes committed by civilians long before I worried about a service person going on the rampage. We've have several thousand here on the garrison since before the First World War and not once has a soldier go on the rampage, not even after that war which truly was a horror. At the moment we have have about 12000 soldiers here at it's height during the wars we've had 750,000 and some. We had a military psychiatric hospital here for a few years and even then we had no rampages, a few suicides yes. I think service people are more likely to destroy themselves than actually destroy others.
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