about breakfalks

[Juany118]

And if someone would look, they would see the "arm slap" isn't something that necessarily leaves you "wide open", if proper mechanics are used. It just takes straight up practice on just "falling" which I know some people may find "boring" as opposed to training attack techniques.

Let me give you an example. An officer on my department has had in excess of 4-5 concussions in the last 2 years alone, all from arresting resisting subjects. I sat down with him one day and asked "hey man, you were a killer wrestler in high school and college and only stopped coaching that high school team when you got transferred to the narcotics unit right?" Answer "yes." "So man another question...you always 'get the guy' but when I read the reports it seems like you may have concussed yourself. Is it possible that you are doing takedowns that work great on the mat BUT your head doesn't like em on the street?" He sat there and thought for a moment and then said "damn, your right. I need to figure out a way to break that habit."

You need to look at your environment and then TRAIN for that environment, even if it seems tedious. .

 

[PiedmontChun]

it's one more thing to do before you get your hands up, it is inevitably slower.

Recovering from the wind being absolutely knocked out of you or from the percussive impact to your back is "one more thing to do before you get your hands up" also. In a fight situation, I know which I would choose, and that's trying to fall in the best way possible as a priority. As far as trying to "roll out of it", there are many Judo throws that simply don't allow you to roll upon impact - you are heading straight to the mat or the ground, with little to no sideways momentum to be able to roll at all.

 

[Juany118]

PS. I know the physics stuff may seem tedious for some but, while the complete math can be complicated, that is ultimately what the actual "technique" side of martial arts is, applied physics. Sometimes understanding the force involved to make you say "oh yeah, that may be a bad idea." As an example 120gs (the last throw) wouldn't be unheard of in a serious car wreck that lets you survive, relatively uninjured, if you are wearing a seat belt so you don't hit the steering wheel. Proper falling acts like the seat belt as it spreads the impact over a wider area.

 

[MI_martialist]

Because it isn't. You can't attack someone by falling on the ground.

Really? I disagree completely!!

 

[frank raud]

PS. I know the physics stuff may seem tedious for some but, while the complete amth can be complicated, that is ultimately what the actual "technique" side of martial arts is, applied physics. Sometimes understanding the force involved to make you say "oh yeah, that may be a bad idea." As an example 120gs (the last throw) wouldn't be unheard of in a server car wreck that lets you survive, relatively uninjured if you are wearing a seat belt so you don't hit the steering wheel. Proper falling acts like the seat belt as it spreads the impact over a wider area.

Of the 6-700 books I have on the subject, one of my current favourites is The Secrets of Judo by Watanabe and Avakian. It is pretty much a physics manual.

 

[frank raud]

Really? I disagree completely!!

The People's elbow?

 

[Juany118]

The People's elbow?

 

[WaterGal]

I think my position is still: the back is strong enough to take the impact. The arm is far too fragile to endanger. That, and I would never spread my arms if I can help it. I teach five rules for combatives *see no.2
1 keep your balance
2 keep your hands between your opponent and your face at all times
3 stay on your feet
4 atack atack atack!
5 always advance

If you break your spine or tailbone, you won't be able to do any of those things, except maybe #2. If you get nasty bruises on your arms, or even break one of them, you can. Better to hurt your arm.

If you fall forward, your have a choice of either: 1) use your arms to do a proper breakfall and get some bruises, or 2) go by human instinct and break your fall with your hands, potentially breaking your wrists. Or, I guess, 3) faceplant on the asphalt and break your face.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In the following situations the "arm slap on the ground" will not help you.

- Your body are rotating in the air and you don't know which part of your body will hit on the ground first.
- Your opponent is holding on both of your legs and smashing your head straight down to the ground.

 

[frank raud]

In the following situations the "arm slap on the ground" will not help you.

- Your body are rotating in the air and you don't know which part of your body will hit on the ground first.
- Your opponent is holding on both of your legs and smashing your head straight down to the ground.

Aint no breakfall gonna help if you're being piledriven into the ground. You also have a very slim chance of being able to roll out of the scenario you suggest, or of being able to land on your back and absorb the fall. As has been before, the appropriate breakfall to use is not your choice, it is decided for you.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Really? I disagree completely!!

Care to elaborate?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Of the 6-700 books I have on the subject, one of my current favourites is The Secrets of Judo by Watanabe and Avakian. It is pretty much a physics manual.

I've seen that and read parts of it - I had forgotten entirely about it. I think I need a copy.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Aint no breakfall gonna help if you're being piledriven into the ground. You also have a very slim chance of being able to roll out of the scenario you suggest, or of being able to land on your back and absorb the fall. As has been before, the appropriate breakfall to use is not your choice, it is decided for you.

As long as your skull is not cracked, you may stiil live,

 

[Gerry Seymour]

In the following situations the "arm slap on the ground" will not help you.

- Your body are rotating in the air and you don't know which part of your body will hit on the ground first.
- Your opponent is holding on both of your legs and smashing your head straight down to the ground.

In the former, a familiarity with falling makes that a remote possibility. Even with a new fall (someone giving me a throw I don't know), I nearly always know where the ground is coming.

In the latter, unless they are doing some superhero move (swinging me by my feet) or in some WWE move, I'm not sure what would preclude using my arms. I've had people (in training) pull both feet out from under me without warning (from behind), and a breakfall was still available. And if they've managed to preclude the regular breakfall, then I'd use my hands/arms as best to protect. But that's pretty far out there.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

As long as your skull is not cracked, you may stiil live,

If they are going to that extent, your immediate inability to defend after that head-crash makes survival far less likely. And, in fact, Frank pointed out a good tidbit. If I can't breakfall, often I can use at least the principles of rolling (if not an actual roll) to take impact from my head.

 

[Juany118]

In the following situations the "arm slap on the ground" will not help you.

- Your body are rotating in the air and you don't know which part of your body will hit on the ground first.
- Your opponent is holding on both of your legs and smashing your head straight down to the ground.

Here is the problem with your scenarios.

We covered that the first one is addressed by a technique you use in dealing with a throw more common in Aikido, you train to turn into a ball and "roll" with it.

For your second no method whatsoever is going to save you, including the "use your arm as a pillow" method. I am assuming you mean that they have your arms bound up on this one. Otherwise, if your are conscious you can still spread both arms, increasing surface area, and tuck in your head because the back of the skull is stronger than the crown structurally. This also reduced the chance of cervical damage. Are you still hurting? Yes but in that scenario it's about mitigating damage and trying to avoid permenant injury.

 

[frank raud]

In the following situations the "arm slap on the ground" will not help you.

- Your body are rotating in the air and you don't know which part of your body will hit on the ground first.
- Your opponent is holding on both of your legs and smashing your head straight down to the ground.

In judo and jiu jitsu, I learned multiple breakfalls in multiple directions, to prepare me for landing on my side , my back, or to the front. Because, and this is HUGE, there is not one breakfall that works in every scenario. It's almost like people figured this out hundreds of years ago.

So, unless you are suggesting it is pointless to learn something because it isn't the answer to every situation, what are you trying to contribute here?

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

what are you trying to contribute here?

Protect your head.

My wife just fell down from the stair the other day. Because she protected her head, she was OK.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Protect your head.

My wife just fell down from the stair the other day. Because she protected her head, she was OK.

Had she rolled or done a breakfall, her head would also be okay.

 

[Juany118]

Had she rolled or done a breakfall, her head would also be okay.

It's also not a proper measure in regards to a judo throw. In such a fall you're only dealing with the force of gravity. In terms of a judo throw you are dealing with the force of gravity, the force that the other judoka places behind it and the momentum that you potentially had when you are moving towards the other judoka. All of these additional inputs of energy magnify the force so that a single Judo hip throw can actually cause more damage to a single point then they fall down a typical flight of stairs.

The above didn't even take into account what is possibly the most important factor. In a fall down stairs, your motion is chaotic. You are basically a pinball, impacting in a chaotic sequence of small individual impacts that potentially culminates with the head, but each previous impact bleeds energy. A proper throw is having you land with all the force on one general point, unless you land properly.