KangTsai
2nd Black Belt
Well if you had to choose between breaking your arm or your spine at the end of a fall, what would it be?
about breakfalks
- Thread starter Runs With Fire
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OP
Runs With Fire
Black Belt
- Thread Starter
- #42
I think my position is still: the back is strong enough to take the impact. The arm is far too fragile to endanger. That, and I would never spread my arms if I can help it. I teach five rules for combatives *see no.2
1 keep your balance
2 keep your hands between your opponent and your face at all times
3 stay on your feet
4 atack atack atack!
5 always advance
1 keep your balance
2 keep your hands between your opponent and your face at all times
3 stay on your feet
4 atack atack atack!
5 always advance
frank raud
Master of Arts
Unfortunately, none of them apply when you've being thrown. You've lost your balance(or it was taken from you), if you are thrown in a forward direction, your hands will be between the ground and you, when you are thrown, you are not on your feet, very difficult to attack when you've lost your balance and are being thrown. When your balance has been taken, the other person dictates whether you advance or retreat.
There are parts of your back that are more fragile than your arm, and injuries to them are more debilitating. Where would you rather take a punch: the arm, or the back? Oh, that's right, we block with our arms.
frank raud
Master of Arts
135 years of judo experience around the world, and millions of practitioners say you're wrong. But why go by cumulative experience when your background is stand up arts? Many of the common judo throws(any of the hip or shoulder throws) are designed to have the uke land on their side, with the other arm controlled by the tori. You rarely get to decide what kind of breakfall you will do. That is decided for you by the person throwing you.
OP
Runs With Fire
Black Belt
- Thread Starter
- #46
But you can't win a fight with your hands down. And the fight isn't over just because you hit the dirt. I don't do a ton of throws, but when I go down, I keep my hands and legs if possible, in a defensive position.
OP
Runs With Fire
Black Belt
- Thread Starter
- #47
It seems to me, you could have a point, if you were being thrown all day, but it also seems like a very small factor. Slapping the floor doesn't seem productive enough for what I do. Especially given the fact that it leaves you open. Even if just for a second or two. Perhaps we don't throw enough to make it conducive.
Danny T
Senior Master
Practice getting thrown more. Be a good partner and let your training partner/s practice their throwing repeatedly. You'll find after numerous times of hitting the ground what options will protect your body. As one already stated you will not always get to choose how you hit the ground.
As to always having your hand between you and your opponent...how do you accomplish that when you get thrown face down into the ground?
As to always having your hand between you and your opponent...how do you accomplish that when you get thrown face down into the ground?
frank raud
Master of Arts
So, what, exactly is stopping you from hitting the ground and immediately bringing your hands up into a defensive position? That is how I learned how to do breakfalls in jiu jitsu. My first club was on the second floor of an old firehouse. Concrete floor with sawdust poured on it with a pool tarp stretched on top. 12 years of breakfalls on that surface. I transferred to a sister club, they got booted out of where they were training, ended up in a community center. No mats. When outside, did all classes outside, throwing on the ground. That worked until winter came, we managed to use the clubhouse of a local golf course(not used during winter). Building was barely heated through the week, sensei would come in an hour before class, turn the heat up. We had proper mats by then, but they would be frozen when we started the class. We softened the mats up by throwing. I now do judo on 1" tatami on concrete floor. I have fallen off a 8' ladder and done a back breakfall on concrete. Got right back up and went back to work(not recommended, don't want to repeat the experience). Living in a harsh winter environment, have slipped and fallen on my side, my back and to the front. Each time using my arms as part of the breakfall.
Over thirty years of personal experience with breakfalls in less than cushy situations, both on and off the mats, tells me they work. Add to the millions of judokas, aikido, and jiu jitsu players who use the same breakfalls(or variations) says maybe, just maybe they work better than someone who doesn't do them understands.
OP
Runs With Fire
Black Belt
- Thread Starter
- #50
it's one more thing to do before you get your hands up, it is inevitably slower.
OP
Runs With Fire
Black Belt
- Thread Starter
- #51
you would obviously have to turn.
That's fine. Ignore the input from the folks who actually do a ton of throws. Take a hard fall on a hard surface flat on your back, and there will be no more defense.
Danny T
Senior Master
LOL...
Please show an example of you being thrown face down and hitting the ground face down but obviously having turned so you are not face down
Juany118
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Forgetting the different dynamics of different throws there is a BIG difference between any of them on a mat and on concrete. The amount of time you are vulnerable after falling properly is pretty minute. Remember, unless it was a bonafide takedown (meaning the opponent maintains physical control/contact with you) they still have to cover the distance, even if it just largely vertical to get to you, and they have to reorient. The proper fall can be the difference between you being able to defend yourself and not.
If you fall improperly the force is applied over a smaller area can result in serious injury (dislocations, fractures, even unconsciousness), or simply the wind knocked out of you. It can even result in concussion (which can seriously effect your ability to fight) or even death. At a minimum a simple uncontrolled landing where even with your hands up you are forced to reorient.
Also the idea of rolling while definitely viable, if done properly, on concrete is only really applicable for what I call "projection" or "launch" throws like you see in Aikido. It is harder to learn to do this properly (training to stay in a ball to roll while you are falling) but it is easier on the body one learned because your rolling mass naturally wants to slow down when no more force is being applied.
This does NOT work with the "lever" or "fulcrum" throws of Judo. You are basically being dropped straight into the ground and if you just take that on your shoulders and neck on concrete? Good luck to you. You aren't rolling out of it and you risk some serious injury... as the good meme says
If you fall improperly the force is applied over a smaller area can result in serious injury (dislocations, fractures, even unconsciousness), or simply the wind knocked out of you. It can even result in concussion (which can seriously effect your ability to fight) or even death. At a minimum a simple uncontrolled landing where even with your hands up you are forced to reorient.
Also the idea of rolling while definitely viable, if done properly, on concrete is only really applicable for what I call "projection" or "launch" throws like you see in Aikido. It is harder to learn to do this properly (training to stay in a ball to roll while you are falling) but it is easier on the body one learned because your rolling mass naturally wants to slow down when no more force is being applied.
This does NOT work with the "lever" or "fulcrum" throws of Judo. You are basically being dropped straight into the ground and if you just take that on your shoulders and neck on concrete? Good luck to you. You aren't rolling out of it and you risk some serious injury... as the good meme says
Most of the time when your opponent throws you, he has controlled one of your arms. You will only have one free arm left. You can use that free arm to
1. protect your head, put your arm behind your head as a soft pillow, or
2. slap on the mat to get a comfortable falling. The concern is the back of your head can still hit on the ground.
In the following picture, his right arm is not free. His left arm can only do one thing, protect his head, or slap on the mat.
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Juany118
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Most of the time when your opponent throws you, he has controlled one of your arms. You will only have one free arm left. You can use that free arm to
1. protect your head, put your arm behind your head as a soft pillow, or
2. slap on the mat to get a comfortable falling. The concern is the back of your head can still hit on the ground.
In the following picture, his right arm is not free. His left arm can only do one thing, protect his head, or slap on the mat.
obviously every fight is different but, to an extent though you can tuck your head in throws like that and slap/spread the arm to still have more surface area striking. The combination can actually, in certain circumstances of course can prevent more injury than just covering your head. I say this because your hand/arm will protect from abrasions and maybe a fracture to the skull etc. but especially on concrete it won't do much for a concussion, not enough force is absorbed by the limb to stop concussions caused by linear acceleration and they basically do nothing to ones caused by rotational acceleration. However, if applicable, tucking the head so the shoulders hit first, along with force being absorbed across the length of an arm via the "slap" would be a safer option.
I say this because, especially in adults, the onset of the symptoms of a concussion that can be very detrimental in adults (temporary loss of consciousness, confusion, dizziness, ringing in the ears, nausea and vomiting etc) can be almost instantaneous. I said especially in adults because the onset in youth can be delayed due to their different brain structure.
frank raud
Master of Arts
The only danger to his head in this is from the fall. There's not much an arm can do about that except help control the fall.Most of the time when your opponent throws you, he has controlled one of your arms. You will only have one free arm left. You can use that free arm to
1. protect your head, put your arm behind your head as a soft pillow, or
2. slap on the mat to get a comfortable falling. The concern is the back of your head can still hit on the ground.
In the following picture, his right arm is not free. His left arm can only do one thing, protect his head, or slap on the mat.
Juany118
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And its actually summed up quite well in this study that actually used Judo throws as the test bed...
Rotational Acceleration during Head Impact Resulting from Different Judo Throwing Techniques
It only takes about 50 g of translational force to cause a concussion, not sure about the rad/s of radial acceleration. The G's alone are enough to cause the concussion and for the Ouchi-gari, it quite literally blows not only that limit away but the 103 Gs a football player takes on the field and they are wearing helmets.
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