about breakfalks

[Gerry Seymour]

Finally! Gotcha! Or, can get you back for the nitpicking about my inability to properly perform division. Staris are not "bumpy." Stairs have corners. Normal stairs do not have bumps, they have "corners."

Yeah! Go Team!

As you can tell, this sort of drivel entertains me to no end.



My class starts in about90 minutes, c'mon over. I'll stick you with this brown belt girl I have who I think could be Nina from the Tekken games made flesh. She's working on kotegaeshi right now, too. She's sort of... cruel, though.

Sounds like fun. Seriously, I'd love to drop in sometime if I find myself back in the Houston area. I've done some training out that way for a couple of clients of one of my clients (I deliver the training they sell), and might do so again.

 

[Spinedoc]

My class starts in about90 minutes, c'mon over. I'll stick you with this brown belt girl I have who I think could be Nina from the Tekken games made flesh. She's working on kotegaeshi right now, too. She's sort of... cruel, though.

It always makes me laugh when we have a new student say.."Hey, I thought in Aikido you weren't trying to harm your opponent."......I always respond.."Well, you have to understand the context of that statement. By not 'harming your opponent' we mean that we are trying (emphasis on trying) not to permanently damage, disfigure, maim, or kill our opponents, that does not mean that there will not be pain and/or possible injury involved". Usually they get it when they experience sankyo for the first time. LOL.

 

[JP3]

Usually they get it when they experience sankyo for the first time. LOL.

you got that right. Love sankyo, though in our place we call it kotemuwashi. As Evlis would say, "Like kotegaeshi, 'cept different..."

Neat thing about sankyo/kotemuwashi... it doesn't have to hurt to be effective, though making it hurt is.... ahh.... hmm... fulfilling, let's say. Especially when you stick to a boxer and do it to them as they're snapping their hands back... or trying to. Odd how they never think that's even a "thing." Kotegaeshi works that way too, except it's likely to send them across the dojo, depending on how much retraction force they put in.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

In the following clip, the "arm slap mat break fall" can work on the 2nd throw. It won't work on the 1st throw.

 

[Tez3]

It always makes me laugh when we have a new student say.."Hey, I thought in Aikido you weren't trying to harm your opponent."......I always respond.."Well, you have to understand the context of that statement. By not 'harming your opponent' we mean that we are trying (emphasis on trying) not to permanently damage, disfigure, maim, or kill our opponents, that does not mean that there will not be pain and/or possible injury involved". Usually they get it when they experience sankyo for the first time. LOL.

I had Aikido described to me as 'I hold your hand while you hurt yourself'.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

In the following clip, the "arm slap mat break fall" can work on the 2nd throw. It won't work on the 1st throw.

I can't be certain, but it looks like there's room to maintain a rotation to get in a side fall on the first throw. I've never been thrown off that one, so I can't be sure.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I had Aikido described to me as 'I hold your hand while you hurt yourself'.

Some of the techniques really do feel that way when they fall perfectly into place.

 

[JP3]

Going back and reviewing the thread, I'm still a bit on the concerned side that the O/P thinks he's learning judo, but hasn't ever done breakfall/ukemi training.

 

[frank raud]

Going back and reviewing the thread, I'm still a bit on the concerned side that the O/P thinks he's learning judo, but hasn't ever done breakfall/ukemi training.

I don't believe he thinks he is learning judo, he says he does judo throws in a self defense course and in krav.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I think my arms are quite fragile compared to my back, so why would I want them involved?

You don't need to use your arm to slab on the mat. You can use your arms to protect your head instead. Your arm is stronger than your skull, and your head is more important than your arm.

Here are 2 examples.

[/QUOTE]

 

[JP3]

Can someone describe to me a few good reasons why I might want to introduce breakfalks into my Judo work? I do alot of basic judo throws in a self defense program and in Krav Maga. I've never taught it. Didn't learn it in my training. My instructors viewed it as unnecessary, useless, and dangerous on anything other than crash mats.
Personally,I think my arms are quite fragile compared to my back, so why would I want them involved? especially sprawled out in an immediately useless position?

I don't believe he thinks he is learning judo, he says he does judo throws in a self defense course and in krav.

I had to go back and re-read the actual O/P since I could have sworn he talked about taking judo, but you're absolutely correct. The O/P said he did some judo throws but didn't actually take any judo, etc.:

Can someone describe to me a few good reasons why I might want to introduce breakfalks into my Judo work? I do alot of basic judo throws in a self defense program and in Krav Maga. I've never taught it. Didn't learn it in my training. My instructors viewed it as unnecessary, useless, and dangerous on anything other than crash mats.
Personally,I think my arms are quite fragile compared to my back, so why would I want them involved? especially sprawled out in an immediately useless position?

Hmmm. I get it now. it's an SD course, with throws which he thinks are from judo, which is probably what he was taught. The "judo" throws themselves aren't judo, the throws originate in various forms of jujutsu. Principally, the throwing techniques (nagewaza) are from the keto-ryu jujutsu of Jigoro Kano's instructor IikuboTsunetoshi, which Jigoro kano paired with the non-destructive portions of the tenjin shin'yo-ryu jujutsu of his earlier instructor Fukuda hachinosuke . Big generalizations these, so keep this in mind.

Regardless, half of the learning of the throwing techniques, to get them right and most properly executed, is to learn to both deliver AND receive them (i.e. the ukemi/breakfalls).

So, when Runs With Fire said, "My instructors viewed it as unnecessary, useless, and dangerous on anything other than crash mats." I just have to shake my head. Some ~6,000 people die each year of a slip and fall accident in their own homes, for which knowing the breakfalls taught in the first week's judo classes could be a direct lifesaver.

As to needing a crash mat to take a fall, you don't have them when you are throwing people around in the SD class, are you? I am assuming that you have some sort of surface, i.e. a floor, on which folks are being tossed. If you put any emphasis on that at all, I can tell you that you are training people, even if you do't know it or if the instructors don't want to believe it, how to breakfall. I can prove it by merely asking, "Have you ever tossed someone with one of those hip or shoulder throws while in class? Ok, that's a yes. Did they get back up? Ok, breakfall." Learning to do it better is a good thing. I've used my ukemi to take falls on a hardwood surface (to see if I could) out in the grass (during a demonstration) across the top of a car (at a bar with my wife and a little guy who grabbed her but, whom I gently disciplined (truth), went and got his 6'8" friend to teach me a lesson and ended up getting taught one... albeit I rolled across some dude's new Porshe Boxter. I felt bad about the car.) and on concrete (just plain old tripped over a parking block and did a splay out front breakfall. Got a little abrasion on one hand and that's it.

Next thing said, "Personally,I think my arms are quite fragile compared to my back, so why would I want them involved?"

Because arms heal much quicker, and with fewer complications, than the spine and the complex ligament and muscular structure which keeps everyting in place.... to say nothing of the spinal cord. If I need to tell you that protecting that is important... maybe I'm wasting my time.

 

[Runs With Fire]

Hah! I've not heard the term shock absorbers used in a martial arts context before, so I can understand why she might be confused, haha.

But were they looking for you to catch yourself on your forearms, or on your hands in a push-up position? I ask because, at as far as I've ever learned, catching yourself on your hands means you're using your wrists and metacarpals to absorb the shock.

more the biceps and triceps. The thing was to start with your arms extended ,back kept straight, and bend the elbows as you continue down to slow the decent, rather than rigid arms and a sudden stop.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

more the biceps and triceps. The thing was to start with your arms extended ,back kept straight, and bend the elbows as you continue down to slow the decent, rather than rigid arms and a sudden stop.

I've seen this taught at schools that don't practice throws (and, so, don't have breakfalls). It's reasonable for a controlled fall. Practiced enough, it might become habitual and help avoid putting a stiff arm out on an uncontrolled fall. It does expose the wrists more, and wont' have the structure to stop an uncontrolled fall, but it will still help.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

the thing was to start with your arms extended ,back kept straight, and bend the elbows as you continue down to slow the decent, ...

All wrestling teachers will tell you that when you use "shoulder throw" to throw your opponent, if your opponent extends his arm toward the ground, you should pull his arm toward you and force him to land with his "triangle muscle behind his shoulder" (the strongest muscle on human body). I have seen so many students who hurt their "wrist joint" this way. It's not a good landing method.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

As others have pointed out, proper breakfalling technique is very important, possibly the most useful thing you'll ever learn in the martial arts.

As far as the "slapping the mat" portion of certain breakfalls, I'm more ambivalent. If I'm taking a fall on concrete, I certainly don't slap the ground as hard as judoka typically do on mats.

Possible arguments for training with slapping the mat:

• To reprogram the instinctive reaction of reaching out to post with the hand, which can cause a broken wrist. I honestly suspect this is the most important reason.
• To create a broader surface area to distribute the impact. Note, this does not require you to slap really hard as is often practiced. You really need just enough force to connect the arm and body as a unit.
• For really big rotational throws, the extension of the arm may give the throwee some degree of control over the amount of rotation so as to land in the best position for absorbing impact. (Arm extended slows rotation, arm tight to the body speeds rotation - think of a figure skater doing spins.)

If you watch high-level judoka taking breakfalls you will notice two things:

For demonstrations and when training reps, they will almost always slap the mat cleanly and forcefully.

When being thrown in competition, they will typically either not slap the mat at all or else will do so in a minimal fashion.

I'm not a high-level judoka, but this matches my personal experience as well. Overall, I've come to the conclusion that slapping the mat has its uses as a developmental tool in training, but is not one of the more important elements in actual application of the breakfall.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

As others have pointed out, proper breakfalling technique is very important, possibly the most useful thing you'll ever learn in the martial arts.

As far as the "slapping the mat" portion of certain breakfalls, I'm more ambivalent. If I'm taking a fall on concrete, I certainly don't slap the ground as hard as judoka typically do on mats.

True that. One of the rooms I use for teaching has puzzle mats. Their surface is very firm, and slapping hurts (as it does on concrete, etc.), so in there I work on a different falling technique that replaces the slap with a more gradual, slightly earlier arrival of the arm - which links up with your bullet point:

• To create a broader surface area to distribute the impact. Note, this does not require you to slap really hard as is often practiced. You really need just enough force to connect the arm and body as a unit.

• For really big rotational throws, the extension of the arm may give the throwee some degree of control over the amount of rotation so as to land in the best position for absorbing impact. (Arm extended slows rotation, arm tight to the body speeds rotation - think of a figure skater doing spins.)

It also helps when it actually lands (with slap, or with the more gradual version). Bringing a leg over as a brake is also useful in these falls. I learned that lesson when I got a throw I wasn't familiar with about 25 years ago and over-rotated the fall. That dislocated toe has been my most nagging MA injury.

If you watch high-level judoka taking breakfalls you will notice two things:

For demonstrations and when training reps, they will almost always slap the mat cleanly and forcefully.

When being thrown in competition, they will typically either not slap the mat at all or else will do so in a minimal fashion.

I'm not a high-level judoka, but this matches my personal experience as well. Overall, I've come to the conclusion that slapping the mat has its uses as a developmental tool in training, but is not one of the more important elements in actual application of the breakfall.

When I was training in Judo, my instructor taught us to never slap in competition. He said a half-point throw, if we slapped, would become a full-point throw. I don't know if that's still true in current rules, or if it was ever an actual rule (or maybe just something that affected the judges' estimation of effectiveness).

 

[Tony Dismukes]

When I was training in Judo, my instructor taught us to never slap in competition. He said a half-point throw, if we slapped, would become a full-point throw. I don't know if that's still true in current rules, or if it was ever an actual rule (or maybe just something that affected the judges' estimation of effectiveness).

It's not an official rule, but I could see it affecting the judges perceptions. Sort of like point karate where the person delivering a punch lets out a big kiai to bring the judges attention to the strike.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I think my arms are quite fragile compared to my back, so why would I want them involved?

Here is another example that you can use your arms to protect your head instead of to "slap on the mat". Without "slap on the mat" may help you to get back up faster.

IMO, to be able to get back up fast without even have to use your arm can be a useful skill in "fighting".

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

When I was training in Judo, my instructor taught us to never slap in competition. He said a half-point throw, if we slapped, would become a full-point throw.

This is the problem for "sport". If you slap on the mat, it's very clear that you have admitted that your opponent have just thrown you. If you don't and use that slapping arm to drag your opponent down to the ground, it may sound like both of you lose balance together.

This is why it's very difficult to see a "clean throw" in tournament. No matter how perfect your throw may be, your opponent will try to drag you down.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Here is another example that you can use your arms to protect your head instead of to "slap on the mat". Without "slap on the mat" may help you to get back up faster.

IMO, to be able to get back up fast without even have to use your arm can be a useful skill in "fighting".

Using your hands to protect the fall has nothing to do with how you get up.