Krav Maga training effectiveness

[frank raud]

Again, it's what is 'most likely'. Things outside of that category still do happen, and when training KM it's not like I'm gonna pass on the lesson that teaches how to disarm a guy with a gun because it 'isn't likely' for it to happen to me, I'll take what I can from the lesson on the off-chance I'm ever held at gunpoint for some reason.

Eventually you will realize that training for every possible scenario cuts into the time you train for realistic possibilities, making your overall training less effective.

 

[Nadav917]

Eventually you will realize that training for every possible scenario cuts into the time you train for realistic possibilities, making your overall training less effective.

Fair enough, but I don't make the lesson plans. I just do what my teacher shows, and so far he hasn't been doing any outrageous stuff involving assault rifles or anything, so I think I'm good.

 

[frank raud]

Fair enough, but I don't make the lesson plans. I just do what my teacher shows, and so far he hasn't been doing any outrageous stuff involving assault rifles or anything, so I think I'm good.

Oh, to be young again, and have someone else pay for my training.

 

[Nadav917]

Oh, to be young again, and have someone else pay for my training.

What does the lesson plan of the teacher have to do with who is paying the membership?

 

[frank raud]

What does the lesson plan of the teacher have to do with who is paying the membership?

It's the acceptance of throwing everything at a wall. People become a little more discerning when they figure out how many hours they had to work in exchange for what they are paying for their training. Nothing for you to worry about now.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I meant the points of the body that would be illegal to attack in most competition MA's. Just to clarify.

Yes, and every art I've visited with (even the ones that participate in competition) know about those. There are a lot of arts and schools that train for things other than competition, and they all train how to make use of those points. Krav is not unique in that aspect.

 

[drop bear]

I meant the points of the body that would be illegal to attack in most competition MA's. Just to clarify.

Yeah. What nobody here is telling you is you attack them in the same way. And defend them in the same way as competition. Pretty much.

Well you should anyway.

 

[drop bear]

Eventually you will realize that training for every possible scenario cuts into the time you train for realistic possibilities, making your overall training less effective.

It is a concept. Pulling something out of someone's hand is a meta idea. It can be trained with a gun. But used against a bottle.

Makes no real difference.

You can use the same hand fighting that works on weapons to stop punches in a clinch.

So you are not necessarily loosing out to specifics as much as you think.

 

[frank raud]

It is a concept. Pulling something out of someone's hand is a meta idea. It can be trained with a gun. But used against a bottle.

Makes no real difference.

You can use the same hand fighting that works on weapons to stop punches in a clinch.

So you are not necessarily loosing out to specifics as much as you think.

Doesn't translate well to a bottle or a knife

 

[drop bear]

Doesn't translate well to a bottle or a knife

OK. I don't have much phone credit so I might be guessing on those videos. But my one gun defense is basically half a wristlock throw and then stripping the gun out of their hand. If I had credit I could show you the aikido guy who pulled that off against a gunman.

And look it is simple and mostly points the bang end of the gun towards the bad guy.

I have used that same wrist lock and strip against thousands of guys with bottles. Sometimes I don't even spill the contents.

I have also disarmed two guys with knives.(only one serious one) heaps of phones. And a packet of cigarettes.

I also use the same move to separate guys who have grips on each other.

I have gun defended people more than I have hit people. Because it is such a good little low level response.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

OK. I don't have much phone credit so I might be guessing on those videos. But my one gun defense is basically half a wristlock throw and then stripping the gun out of their hand. If I had credit I could show you the aikido guy who pulled that off against a gunman.

And look it is simple and mostly points the bang end of the gun towards the bad guy.

I have used that same wrist lock and strip against thousands of guys with bottles. Sometimes I don't even spill the contents.

I have also disarmed two guys with knives.(only one serious one) heaps of phones. And a packet of cigarettes.

I also use the same move to separate guys who have grips on each other.

I have gun defended people more than I have hit people. Because it is such a good little low level response.

Most gun disarms I've seen (and trained in) are specialized to a gun. I prefer an approach like this - use what works elsewhere, if it applies - because it is just an adaptation of something you can use with other weapons, and even if there's no weapon.

Just FYI, the two videos show a fairly standard takeaway for a gun to/near the forehead from the front. One hand to the wrist for control, the other under the gun for an upward takeaway (getting the barrel off-target, too). One included a kick in the process, which seems both unnecessary and a bad idea - too much complication in a situation where failure would probably be disastrous. I've pasted a screen shot from the first one so you can see what they're showing.

 

[drop bear]

View attachment 20812
Most gun disarms I've seen (and trained in) are specialized to a gun. I prefer an approach like this - use what works elsewhere, if it applies - because it is just an adaptation of something you can use with other weapons, and even if there's no weapon.

Just FYI, the two videos show a fairly standard takeaway for a gun to/near the forehead from the front. One hand to the wrist for control, the other under the gun for an upward takeaway (getting the barrel off-target, too). One included a kick in the process, which seems both unnecessary and a bad idea - too much complication in a situation where failure would probably be disastrous. I've pasted a screen shot from the first one so you can see what they're showing.

On my computer had a look. I dont think you need thousands of gun disarms or somehow specialize in them. But a couple are usefull mechanics.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

On my computer had a look. I dont think you need thousands of gun disarms or somehow specialize in them. But a couple are usefull mechanics.

The ones I learned all came down to the same basic mechanics in either vertical or horizontal planes. If I had to put them in "technique" buckets, I'd say there were 3 techniques I learned, and the rest were just variations of those, or were variations of existing techniques (like the wrist throw you mentioned).

 

[Paul_D]

The point I am trying to get across is you want to learn SD, but don’t actually seem to know who or what it is you are defending yourself from (An all too common problem). Rather than learning to deal with the crimes/criminals you are most likely to be a victim of, so that your SD defence training is relevant to you, you seem to be training KM as some sort of swiss army knife MA to deal with any and all possible scenarios.

If your 80 year old Gran came to you and asked you to teach her SD, because her friend had had her handbag stolen, you wouldn’t tell her to go to the local boxing club in case she ever gets into a bar fight. Instead you would teach her about how muggers go about selecting their victims, so that she knows what behaviour to avoid doing, and therefore greatly lessen her chances of being selected as a victim.

Of course, if she also wants to go to her local boxing gym for fun, that’s fine but that doesn’t make it a SD class for 80 year old grans.

If you are worried about bar fights, avoid bars with bad repuations, learn verbal de-escalation and pre-emptive striking. If you are worried about being mugged learn how muggers select their victims so you can lessen your chances of beign slected as victim. If you are worried about being a victim of domestic abuse learn to recognise the warning signs of a potentially abusive relaitonship so you can get out early. If you are worried about being sexually assaulted whilst you go for a run, then avoid joggiong down alleyways were you can be ambushed, don't wear a hooded as it restricts your vision,and don't run with headphones in.

The list goes on, but basically none of the things I have listed you will learn in a KM class. So if you enjoy KM keep doing it, that's great, but don't think you're learning SD that's relevant to you. The vast majority of SD skills for people who live in rich countries with low crimes rates, and non physical.

 

[Juany118]

View attachment 20812
Most gun disarms I've seen (and trained in) are specialized to a gun. I prefer an approach like this - use what works elsewhere, if it applies - because it is just an adaptation of something you can use with other weapons, and even if there's no weapon.

Just FYI, the two videos show a fairly standard takeaway for a gun to/near the forehead from the front. One hand to the wrist for control, the other under the gun for an upward takeaway (getting the barrel off-target, too). One included a kick in the process, which seems both unnecessary and a bad idea - too much complication in a situation where failure would probably be disastrous. I've pasted a screen shot from the first one so you can see what they're showing.

You can use disarms that will work against a knife but they are very much frowned upon and, imo, good reason. The problem is this, let's say one uses a wrist lock > throw/takedown > strip sequence like you might do for a blunt object or knife. Even if you control the wrist well enough that you can't get shot, a shot can still go off and who knows who/what will be hit. The safest bet, for everyone in the area, are variations of what the videos showed. In this way you get control of the weapon faster and you can then even turn it on the attacker to prone him out until the authorities arrive.

I also agree with the kick being problematic. You are going to have your hands full (literally and figuratively) getting the gun, adding a kick to the mix is, again just my opinion, over complicating one of the most dangerous, if not the most dangerous, self defense scenario you will face.

 

[drop bear]

You can use disarms that will work against a knife but they are very much frowned upon and, imo, good reason. The problem is this, let's say one uses a wrist lock > throw/takedown > strip sequence like you might do for a blunt object or knife. Even if you control the wrist well enough that you can't get shot, a shot can still go off and who knows who/what will be hit. The safest bet, for everyone in the area, are variations of what the videos showed. In this way you get control of the weapon faster and you can then even turn it on the attacker to prone him out until the authorities arrive.

I also agree with the kick being problematic. You are going to have your hands full (literally and figuratively) getting the gun, adding a kick to the mix is, again just my opinion, over complicating one of the most dangerous, if not the most dangerous, self defense scenario you will face.

The gun is mostly pointed towards the bad guy.

Control of the weapon is a more nuanced concept. You don't want to sacrifice loosing complete control for speed.

Thinking slap disarms here.

 

[Juany118]

The gun is mostly pointed towards the bad guy.

Control of the weapon is a more nuanced concept. You don't want to sacrifice loosing complete control for speed.

Thinking slap disarms here.

The gun in that scenario certainly CAN be pointed at the bad guy but I am just not willing to bank on that, and again just my opinion, I think it dangerous for anyone to do that is all. In the other methods you still have control and due to the manner in which you execute the control you don't simply strip the weapon, you retain it.

 

[drop bear]

The gun in that scenario certainly CAN be pointed at the bad guy but I am just not willing to bank on that, and again just my opinion, I think it dangerous for anyone to do that is all. In the other methods you still have control and due to the manner in which you execute the control you don't simply strip the weapon, you retain it.

You think it is dangerous to do a gun disarm?

I am lost as to which method you prefer.

 

[Juany118]

You think it is dangerous to do a gun disarm?

I am lost as to which method you prefer.

When you have to disarm you have to disarm.

As for preferred method a variation of this...

depending on the size of the weapon I may have both hands on the weapon but this sums up the general principle I think is safer for all involved.

 

[drop bear]

When you have to disarm you have to disarm.

As for preferred method a variation of this...

depending on the size of the weapon I may have both hands on the weapon but this sums up the general principle I think is safer for all involved.

We are basically discussing the same move.