A Stolen Election in 2004?

[modarnis]

>>>11. My research into the topics discussed in this affidavit is continuing, and I reserve the right to modify my conclusions as new information becomes available.

TO THIS I SWEAR AND AFFIRM,
>>>


You can either swear to the truth of something or you can't. If you take an oath (which there is no evidence of on the link you posted with this affidavit) you are swearing to the truthfulness of what ever your affidavit purports to be. You can't swear to future truths. This guy is in effect subverting the purpose of the affidavit by qualifying it. So when being cross examined in any proceeding in the future he can say oops my research wasn't complete, so my sworn truth wasn't really a truth at all, but you can't punch holes in my credibility because it was a conditional affidavit

I call Bul*#&@T

 

[Makalakumu]

One did.

Then one is making a Herculean effort to ignore various accounts and facts...

Much of it is biased claptrap pumped up by an herbologist from New Hampshire who's into neuro-linguistic programming. (See quackwatch.org, and look up NLP...regrettably, a number of martial artists also seem to buy into this junk.)

One would like to see someone actually address claims being made rather then trying to shift attention away with this smokescreen.

Until something solid is put out there, we'll be going with the simple explanations--the dems got beat, the elephants played politics, the voting system in this country is badly-maintained.

This explanation is insufficiant in explaining the data as it has presented itself. There is an impossible set of circumstances that had to occur for the above to occur.

The conspiracies are quite out in the open. You want to see 'em? trace through the wacko Tom De Lay's gerrymandering, bullying, Bible-thumping, and out-and-out crookedness. Look at the nutty way we do campaign financing. Scope out Bush's family tree.

Perhaps this just another in a long line of very bad conspiracies that everyone knows about but works assiduously to ignore. One is suprised by the mental feats it takes to dodge the following...

OHIO RECOUNT

AFFIDAVIT
December 10, 2004
From: http://web.northnet.org/minstrel/supreme.htm
I, RICHARD HAYES PHILLIPS, do swear and affirm the following:

1. I hold a Ph.D. in geomorphology from the University of Oregon. I am a professional hydrologist and am well versed in standard techniques of statistical analysis, with special expertise in spotting anomalous data. A copy of my curriculum vita is attached to this Affidavit as Exhibit A.

2. I have analyzed unofficial precinct level results from the November 2, 2004 general election in nine Ohio counties, including Cuyahoga, Franklin, Warren, Butler, Clermont, Miami, Montgomery, Hamilton, and Lucas. In have compared these results with those from the November 7, 2000 general election where such data is available. I have examined the unofficial and official results for the November 2, 2004 election, county by county. I have examined, in Franklin County, data on the number of voting machines deployed in each precinct. I have also examined United States census data for 2000 and 2003.

3. There are numerous examples of incorrect presidential vote tallies in certain precincts in Cleveland, Cuyahoga County. These irregularities include at least 16 precincts where votes intended to be cast for Kerry were shifted to other candidates’ columns, and at least 30 precincts with inexplicably low voter turnout, including 7.10%, 13.05%, 19.60%, 21.01%, 21.80%, 24.72%, 28.83%, 28.97%, and 29.25%, and seven entire wards where voter turnout was reportedly below 50%, even as low as 39.35%. Kerry won Cleveland with 83.27% of the vote to 15.88% for Bush. If voter turnout was really 60% of registered voters, as seems likely based upon turnout in other major cities of Ohio, rather than 49.89% as reported, Kerry’s margin of victory in Cleveland has been wrongly reduced by 22,000 votes.

4. The systematic withholding of voting machines from predominantly Democratic wards in Columbus, many of them with high black populations, severely restricted voter turnout in these wards and cost John Kerry 17,000 votes. I have meticulously compared election results with the number of registered voters per voting machine for each precinct in Columbus, and for each ward in Franklin County. In Columbus, the median Bush precinct had a 60.56% turnout, while the median Kerry precinct had only a 50.78% turnout. County wide, the 73 wards with fewer than 300 registered voters per machine had a 62.33% turnout; 58 were in the suburbs, and 54 were won by Bush. The 73 wards with 300 or more registered voters per machine had a 51.99% turnout; 59 were in Columbus, and 58 were won by Kerry. In addition, there were 68 machines not provided to anyone, according to data provided by the Board of Elections.

5. It has been widely reported that in Warren County, the administrative building was locked down on election night and no independent persons were allowed to observe the vote count. Based upon the official Board of Elections reports, there has been a 15.51% increase in voter registration in eight months time, and voter turnout was reportedly above 80% in 55 precincts. Since the 2000 election, voter registration was reportedly up by 79.0%, 38.3%, 32.4%, 31.0%, 29.7%, and 28.4% in six townships that provided 68.75% of Bush’s margin of victory in Warren County. While the county population has increased by 14.75% since the 2000 census, 87 of 157 precincts had shown declines in voter registration at other times since the 2000 election, and yet every single precinct, 157 of 157, showed increases in voter registration since March 2, 2004. In Butler County, there are nine precincts and two entire townships where Kerry received fewer votes than Gore despite a sharp increase in voter turnout; and there are precincts with reported increases in voter registration, since November 7, 2000, of 177.9%, 143.5%, 69.3%, 65.5%, 64.5%, 48.2%, 43.3%, 38.8%, 36.9%, 34.3%, 34.0%, and 33.8%, compared to an increase in population of only 3.12% county wide. In Clermont County, where the population has grown by 4.39% since the 2000 census, voter registration was reportedly up by 85.4% and 67.6% in two precincts, and down by 49.4% in another precinct, all in the same township; there were 23 precincts where turnout was up, but Kerry got fewer votes than Gore. All these data are indications that votes may have been shifted from Kerry to Bush. According to the official results certified by the Ohio Secretary of State, these three counties combined provided Bush with a plurality of 132,685 votes, which is 13,910 votes more than his statewide plurality of 118,775 votes. Given that George Bush carried these counties by 95,575 votes in 2000, the net loss for John Kerry could be as high as 37,000 votes.

6. It is my professional opinion that there is compelling evidence of fraud in Miami County. Early on election night, when 31,620 votes had been counted, and later, when 50,235 votes had been counted, John Kerry had exactly the same percentage, 33.92%, and the percentage for George Bush was almost exactly the same, dropping by 0.03%, from 65.80% to 65.77%. The second set of returns gave Bush a margin of exactly 16,000 votes, giving cause to question the integrity of the central counting device for the optical scanning machines. Compared to 2000, voter turnout increased by 20.86%, while the population increased by only 1.38%. Voter turnout was reported at 98.55% and 94.27% in two precincts in Concord, numbers nearly impossible to achieve. Voter turnout was reported to have increased by 194.58% and 152.78% in two precincts in Troy compared to the 2000 election, and by more than 30.0% in ten other precincts. There are no data for voter registration in 2000, so the ballots cast offer the only meaningful comparison. Comparing the results of the 2004 election to the results of the 2000 election, there is one precinct where the reduction in turnout exactly matched the reduction in votes counted for the Democratic presidential candidate. It is my professional opinion that these numbers are fraudulent, in that the true election results have been altered. Given that Bush officially carried Miami County in 2004 by 16,394 votes, and that Bush carried Miami County in 2000 by 10,453 votes, the net loss to John Kerry could be as high as 6,000 votes.

7. In Toledo, Lucas County, there were 50 precincts with less than 60% reported turnout. All of them were won overwhelmingly by John Kerry, by a margin of better than 5 to 1 in the aggregate. There were 45 precincts with more than 80% reported turnout; 12 were won by Bush, 33 were won by Kerry, and most were competitive. When the precinct numbers are combined into totals for each ward, data not provided by the Board of Elections, a clear and unmistakable pattern emerges. The 14 wards with the highest reported turnout were won by John Kerry by a margin of 11 to 7 in the aggregate. The 10 wards with the lowest reported turnout were won by John Kerry by a margin of 6 to 1 in the aggregate. It is my professional opinion that the election in Lucas County was rigged, most likely by altering the vote totals in each ward by a percentage chosen for that ward, plus or minus, based upon voting patterns in past elections. If turnout in Toledo had been as high as that reported elsewhere in the county, John Kerry’s plurality would have been 7,000 votes larger.

8. There are still 92,672 uncounted votes in Ohio, exclusive of any uncounted provisional ballots. According to unofficial results provided by the Ohio Secretary of State, there were 5,574,476 ballots cast, and 5,481,804 votes counted, which leaves 92,672 regular ballots (1.66%) still uncounted. The official results, now certified, do not include these ballots, but differ from the unofficial results only in the addition of provisional ballots and some absentee ballots to the tally. In Montgomery and Hamilton counties, these uncounted votes come disproportionately from precincts that voted overwhelmingly for John Kerry. In Montgomery County there are 47 precincts, all of them in Dayton, where the percentage of uncounted ballots is 4% or more. Kerry won all 47 of these precincts, by a margin of 7 to 1 in the aggregate. County wide in Montgomery County, the percentage of uncounted ballots was 1.70%. In Hamilton County there are 26 precincts, 22 of them in Cincinnati, where the percentage of uncounted ballots is 8% or more. Kerry won all 26 of these precincts, by a margin of 10 to 1 in the aggregate. Altogether there are 86 precincts in Cincinnati where the percentage of uncounted ballots is 4% or more. Kerry won 85 of these precincts, by a margin of 5 to 1 in the aggregate. County wide in Hamilton County, the percentage of uncounted ballots was 2.34%. Although I have not yet had time to examine similar data for Cleveland, Columbus, Toledo, Akron, Youngstown, Canton, or elsewhere, it is possible that the same pattern will emerge in these cities as well. If these 92,672 uncounted votes were cast for Kerry by a 5 to 1 margin, this would reduce the statewide margin between the candidates by another 61,781 votes.

9. There are still provisional ballots uncounted in Ohio. On election night the Ohio Secretary of State reported that 5,481,804 ballots had been counted, and 155,428 provisional ballots had been issued. According to the official results, now certified, 5,625,621 votes have now been counted, an increase of 143,817, which represents the number of newly counted ballots. Some of these were absentee ballots. The reported count of provisional ballots was 79,482 for Kerry, and 61,505 for Bush. This would leave 14,441 provisional ballots uncounted.

10. In summary, it is my professional opinion that John Kerry’s margins of victory were wrongly reduced by 22,000 votes in Cleveland, by 17,000 votes in Columbus, and by as many as 7,000 votes in Toledo. It is my further professional opinion that John Kerry’s margins of defeat in Warren, Butler, and Clermont counties were inflated by as many as 37,000 votes in the aggregate, and in Miami County by as many as 6,000 votes. There are still 92,672 uncounted regular ballots that, based upon the analysis set forth above of the election results from Dayton and Cincinnati, may be expected to break for John Kerry by an overwhelming margin. And there are 14,441 uncounted provisional ballots.

11. My research into the topics discussed in this affidavit is continuing, and I reserve the right to modify my conclusions as new information becomes available.

TO THIS I SWEAR AND AFFIRM,

___________________________________

Richard Hayes Phillips, Ph.D.

Or

The fact that many of these claims have been statistically analyzed and independently confirmed by people at Caltech, Princeton and MIT.

Or

Conyers Alarmed at Efforts to Obstruct Ohio Recount Effort, Calls Witness to Monday Hearing to Detail Such Efforts

Yesterday, it came to the attention of the House Judiciary Committee Democratic Staff that efforts to audit poll records in Greene County, Ohio are being obstructed by County Election officials and/or Ohio Secretary of State Ken Blackwell. According to Joan Quinn and Eve Robertson, two election observers researching voting records, Greene County officials initially gave Quinn and Robertson access to poll records, and then abruptly withdrew such access. Greene County Director of Elections Carole Garman claimed that she had withdrawn access to the voting records at the direction of Secretary Blackwell. Regardless of who ordered the denial of this access, such an action appears to violate Ohio law. Later, at the same office, election observers found the office unlocked, and what appeared to be locked ballot boxes, unattended. Prior to the withdrawal of access to the books, observers had found discrepancies in election records, and possible evidence of minority vote suppression.

House Judiciary Committee Democrats wrote a letter to Blackwell on December 2 requesting answers to 34 questions about election irregularities and fraud in Ohio. This letter included questions about major discrepancies in Perry County poll books. Since that letter, additional documentation has been provided to the Democratic staff demonstrating similar problems in other counties.

Because of the urgency of the Greene County matter, Congressman John Conyers, Jr., Ranking member of the House Judiciary Committee, has requested that Ms. Quinn testify at a hearing scheduled Monday in Columbus, Ohio. Ms. Quinn has agreed to do so and will also present sworn statements from corroborating witnesses. Conyers issued the following statement:

"The Recount effort is simply a search for the truth of what happened during the 2004 Presidential election in Ohio. We have now repeatedly seen election officials obstruct and stonewall this search for the truth. I am beginning to wonder what it is they are trying to hide."

Or

snip

Bev showed up bright and early the morning of Wednesday the 17th - well before the scheduled meeting - and discovered three of the elections officials in the Elections Warehouse standing over a table covered with what looked like poll tapes. When they saw Bev and her friends, Bev told me in a telephone interview less than an hour later, "They immediately shoved us out and slammed the door."

In a way, that was a blessing, because it led to the stinking evidence.

"On the porch was a garbage bag," Bev said, "and so I looked in it and, and lo and behold, there were public record tapes."

Thrown away. Discarded. Waiting to be hauled off.

"It was technically stinking, in fact," Bev added, "because what they had done was to have thrown some of their polling tapes, which are the official records of the election, into the garbage. These were the ones signed by the poll workers. These are something we had done an official public records request for."

snip

The outcome of that debate was that they all went from the Elections Warehouse back to the Elections Office, to compare the original, November 2 dated and signed poll tapes with the November 15 printouts the Elections Office had submitted to the Secretary of State. A camera crew from www.votergate.tv met them there, as well.

And then things got even odder.

"We were sitting there comparing the real [signed, original] tapes with the [later printout] ones that were given us," Bev said, "and finding things missing and finding things not matching, when one of the elections employees took a bin full of things that looked like garbage - that looked like polling tapes, actually - and passed by and disappeared out the back of the building."

This provoked investigator Ellen Brodsky to walk outside and check the garbage of the Elections Office itself. Sure enough - more original, signed poll tapes, freshly trashed.

"And I must tell you," Bev said, "that whatever they had taken out [the back door] just came right back in the front door and we said, 'What are these polling place tapes doing in your dumpster?'"

snip

But the Ollie North action in two locations on two days was only half of the surprise that awaited Bev and her associates. When they compared the discarded, signed, original tapes with the recent printouts submitted to the state and used to tabulate the Florida election winners, Harris says a disturbing pattern emerged.

"The difference was hundreds of votes in each of the different places we examined," said Bev, "and most of those were in minority areas."

When I asked Bev if the errors they were finding in precinct after precinct were random, as one would expect from technical, clerical, or computer errors, she became uncomfortable.

"You have to understand that we are non-partisan," she said. "We're not trying to change the outcome of an election, just to find out if there was any voting fraud."

That said, Bev added: "The pattern was very clear. The anomalies favored George W. Bush. Every single time."

snip

Nonetheless, Bev and her merry band are off to hit another county.

As she told me on her cell phone while driving toward their next destination, "We just put Volusia County and their lawyers on notice that they need to continue to keep a number of documents under seal, including all of the memory cards to the ballot boxes, and all of the signed poll tapes."

Why?

"Simple," she said. "Because we found anomalies indicative of fraud."

or

December 6, 2004—The manipulation of computer voting machines in the recent presidential election and the funding of programmers who were involved in the operation are tied to an intricate web of shady off-shore financial trusts and companies, shady espionage operatives, Republican Party politicians close to the Bush family, and National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) contract vehicles.

An exhaustive investigation has turned up a link between current Florida Republican Representative Tom Feeney, a customized Windows-based program to suppress Democratic votes on touch screen voting machines, a Florida computer services company with whom Feeney worked as a general counsel and registered lobbyist while he was Speaker of the Florida House of Representatives, and top level officials of the Bush administration.

According to a notarized affidavit signed by Clint Curtis, while he was employed by the NASA Kennedy Space Center contractor, Yang Enterprises, Inc., during 2000, Feeney solicited him to write a program to "control the vote." At the time, Curtis was of the opinion that the program was to be used for preventing fraud in the in the 2002 election in Palm Beach County, Florida. His mind was changed, however, when the true intentions of Feeney became clear: the computer program was going to be used to suppress the Democratic vote in counties with large Democratic registrations.

According to Curtis, Feeney and other top brass at Yang Enterprises, a company located in a three-story building in Oviedo, Florida, wanted the prototype written in Visual Basic 5 (VB.5) in Microsoft Windows and the end-product designed to be portable across different Unix-based vote tabulation systems and to be "undetectable" to voters and election supervisors.

If I tell you that I am going to shoot someone, I show you the gun, I show you the bullets and the guy ends up dead the next day...

upnorthkyosa

PS - At the very least, I would say that Conyers has a lot of information to offer to the Judiciary Committee on Thursday...

President John F. Kennedy once said, "We are not afraid to entrust the American people with unpleasant facts, foreign ideas, alien philosophies, and competitive values. For a nation that is afraid to let its people judge the truth and falsehood in an open market is a nation that is afraid of its people." It appears all to evident today that the government of this nation is afraid of its people, afraid of the truth.

This is nothing new. Alexis De Toqueville observed long ago that, "The surface of American society is covered with a layer of democratic paint, but from time to time one can see the old aristocratic colors breaking through."

 

[Makalakumu]

>>>11. My research into the topics discussed in this affidavit is continuing, and I reserve the right to modify my conclusions as new information becomes available.

TO THIS I SWEAR AND AFFIRM,
>>>


You can either swear to the truth of something or you can't. If you take an oath (which there is no evidence of on the link you posted with this affidavit) you are swearing to the truthfulness of what ever your affidavit purports to be. You can't swear to future truths. This guy is in effect subverting the purpose of the affidavit by qualifying it. So when being cross examined in any proceeding in the future he can say oops my research wasn't complete, so my sworn truth wasn't really a truth at all, but you can't punch holes in my credibility because it was a conditional affidavit

I call Bul*#&@T

Unless the claims are independently confirmed by the same people who helped put lots of robots on Mars...

 

[Makalakumu]

Here is Final Report that will be presented on Jan. 6th by Rep Conyers...

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=331914

Read the executive summary of the 102 page report...

http://www.bluelemur.com/index.php?p=529

upnorthkyosa

 

[Tgace]

If this is a game of "keep posting till I win".......you win.

 

[Makalakumu]

If this is a game of "keep posting till I win".......you win.

If you would read this stuff, then I wouldn't have to play this game...

Winning isn't the objective. Getting the facts out, is.

 

[Makalakumu]

Check out this flash vid...

http://miamedia.com/news/2005-01-02.bush.liar.flash.html

Expert Witness Testimony in the Ohio Supreme Court

http://freepress.org/images/departments/Dep_Baiman.pdf

http://freepress.org/images/departments/Dep_Lange.pdf

http://freepress.org/images/departments/Dep_Phillips.pdf

 

[The Prof]

I live about two miles from where they counted the Florida votes. What a fiacso. I have a friend named Chad, he was not amused.

They did steal the vote. I am a Reagan (Registered) Republican and I believe that the sanctity of the vote was violated by the Republicans. I did not vote for Bush either time. The man is an idiot. I did vote for his brother, our Governor though.

I voted for his dad the first time he ran. The second time I did not, I could not stand another four years of Dan (I can't spell for crap) Quayle.

The Prof

 

[rmcrobertson]

"Could be?" "Should be?" "Might have been?" "Should have been?" "Would be expected to?"

The affadavit is by a self-described, "geomorphologist," who has no particular expertise in the statistics of elections and populations. This is not reassuring of one's ability to render, "a professional opinion," on elections.

Nor is the promulgation of quackery like NLP reassuring of someone's intellectual competence and honesty. That's the connection.

When a smoking gun appears, will of course reconsider. See no smoking gun. See speculation, naivete about how politics works, and wishful thinking, so far.

If this stuff is so clear, why aren't guys like Pat Caddell--liberal politics, lots of expertise in the field--screaming their heads off?

 

[Makalakumu]

Why?

Nobody knows what "the smoking gun" looks like.

Hell, everything in that congressional report could be "a smoking gun".

The FBI needs to get involved or we need to find some other sort of independent investigative team to check into this.

 

[Ray]

Wow, so there are websites that say the election was stolen?

There are also websites showing that big-foot exists and abductions of humans by aliens really happen.

The results of the election are fine. And I have no doubt that in some future election the democrats will win the white house again; probably in 2008. I will work against it, but it will happen. And afterwards I will have a democrat for a president and I will support him or her.

 

[Makalakumu]

Wow, so there are websites that say the election was stolen?

There are also websites showing that big-foot exists and abductions of humans by aliens really happen.

This is a false comparison and it does nothing to address the reality of what happened.

Here are a few things that are documented in the public record and DID occur...

1. Sabotage of primarily minority polling stations.
2. Destruction of votes in Democratic districts.
3. Intimidation of voters through threats of physical force.
4. ALL "REPORTED" VOTING MACHINE MISCALCULATIONS GAVE VOTES TO GWB!
5. Disqualification of provisional ballots violating election laws.
6. Republican officials requesting and buying computer programs that will hack into voting machines.
7. Official polling records thrown into trash and "doctored" records given into public record.
8. Public election officials claiming on the record that they will deliver the state to GWB.
9. CEO's of voting machine companies claiming the same thing.
10. Statistical studies that give a nearly impossible chance for the occurrence of the discrepancy between actual numbers and exit polls.

This is what will be presented to congress today. One senator must vote "no" in order to start an official congressional debate/investigation on this issue. We'll see what happens.

upnorthkyosa

 

[Ray]

This is a false comparison and it does nothing to address the reality of what happened.

Here are a few things that are documented in the public record and DID occur...

upnorthkyosa

Sure, of course I am wrong and you are right. You have thoroughly researched it and you have a first-hand knowledge of it. Bah-humbug. It may have happened and it may not of happened. Regardless, Kerry conceded and Bush is the pres for another 4 years.

The election between Kennedy and Nixon was also close. Close enough for Nixon to contest it and demand recounts. There was also strong evidence that illegal things happened. Nixon decided, for the good of the nation, to concede without contesting it...in spite of the wrong Nixon may have done later, the concession was a good thing.

So, 40 years later, we still have problems with elections? They're as good as they've ever been---improvement would be a good and desireable thing. But, even if it were perfect there would still be sore-losers complaining.

 

[Makalakumu]

1. Sabotage of primarily minority polling stations.
2. Destruction of votes in Democratic districts.
3. Intimidation of voters through threats of physical force.
4. ALL "REPORTED" VOTING MACHINE MISCALCULATIONS GAVE VOTES TO GWB!
5. Disqualification of provisional ballots violating election laws.
6. Republican officials requesting and buying computer programs that will hack into voting machines.
7. Official polling records thrown into trash and "doctored" records given into public record.
8. Public election officials claiming on the record that they will deliver the state to GWB.
9. CEO's of voting machine companies claiming the same thing.
10. Statistical studies that give a nearly impossible chance for the occurrence of the discrepancy between actual numbers and exit polls.

Sure problems happen, but this is widespread and it goes way to far. The items on this list influenced the results of the election. One cannot, in good conscience, certify this election with the above examples muddying the results.

Secondly, many of the items on this list are infractions of Election Law. We are a nation that is suppose to follow the Rule of Law. Letting this slide (again) undermines election law further and only invites more and worse abuses in the future.

Thirdly, is it okay for partisan gangs to chase people with trucks and fire shots at them in order to influence an election?

 

[loki09789]

If you would read this stuff, then I wouldn't have to play this game...

Winning isn't the objective. Getting the facts out, is.

You have gotten your 'facts' out. Mission accomplished.

If the objective is only that, why all the other stuff?

As I have said in the past:

On one hand, the Bush administration/Republicans/Conservatives...who ever happens to be the 'Bad guy' in these games can't administer their way out of a wet paper bag, can't keep a secret or create a good 'evil plan' ....

BUT

Boy do they come together and work effectively to control the voting process!

It can't be both. Either they are inept, unorganized and uncaring or they are maniacal, evil and purposeful.

I have a REALLY hard time thinking that such an involved, decentralized procedure such as voting is being controlled for evil purposes by a puppet master without someone between the guy who witnessed my signature all the way up to the top saying "Hey! There is a conspiracy being played out here....TO THE BAT CAVE!"

I do believe that it is inefficient, imperfect and a mess for many reasons - not the least of which is the 'support the party first, nation second' mentallity of some politically active people.

I had hoped that the national unity after 9/11 would solidify a national sense, but it has actually exposed the rift because of the intensity of war time politics and our entire nation is suffering a form of 'social traumatic stress disorder' because of it. Even if we don't see it.

I am sure that things were no different during the American Rev, Civil War, WWI and II, Korea, Vietnam (obviously), Desert Storm....and all the little 'wars' that didn't hit big radar blips through our history.

Whether on the front line or back home, war brings out the extremes of reactions in individuals, groups and nations.

 

[Makalakumu]

You have gotten your 'facts' out. Mission accomplished.

If the objective is only that, why all the other stuff?

As I have said in the past:

On one hand, the Bush administration/Republicans/Conservatives...who ever happens to be the 'Bad guy' in these games can't administer their way out of a wet paper bag, can't keep a secret or create a good 'evil plan' ....

BUT

Boy do they come together and work effectively to control the voting process!

I think that you are vastly underestimating the ability of groups of people to organize and accomplish a task.

This conspiracy theory drivel is nothing but trash...the facts remain. You've got to lose this Dr. Evil fantasy and realize that people with this "win at all costs" mentality are going to organize and act...and in this case illegally.

Even in small groups, this effort can be quite influential. This is grassroots dirty politics at its best and it is something that the Right has been perfecting since Jim Crowe.

Consequently...

Voter suppression of minorities has been happening for years and, in this politically charged atmosphere, it is not inconceivable that multiple groups would "up the ante" so to speak.

It is also entirely feasible that a Republican public servant would abuse a position of power in order to influence an election...as is the case in Ohio. Where multiple laws were broken.

It is also possible that the leaders in question have direct ties to the "winners."

This matter warrents further investigation at the very least.

upnorthkyosa

 

[michaeledward]

As I have said in the past:

On one hand, the Bush administration/Republicans/Conservatives... can't administer their way out of a wet paper bag, can't keep a secret or create a good 'evil plan' .... BUT ....Boy do they come together and work effectively to control the voting process!

It can't be both.

I think the assertion that they 'can't administer their way ... ' is where your statment falls down.

The Bush Administration is very adept at administering the policies into place that they deem important; huge tax breaks, relaxing pollution controls for industry, funding the military industrial complex, transferring America's wealth from the many to the few, etc, etc.

What is adept is how 'they' are able to undertake these policy changes with the permission of the American people (they won the election). By controlling the media via the right-wing echo chamber, they convince the American people to take actions against their own best interest.

See 'What's the matter with Kansas?' - by Thomas Frank.

See - http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6791950/

WASHINGTON - The success of President Bush’s push to remake Social Security depends on convincing the public that the system is “heading for an iceberg,” according to a White House strategy note that makes the case for cutting benefits promised for the future.

Calling the effort “one of the most important conservative undertakings of modern times,” Peter Wehner, the deputy to White House political director Karl Rove, says in the e-mail message that a battle over Social Security is winnable for the first time in six decades and could transform the political landscape.

 

[Ray]

I think the assertion that they 'can't administer their way ... ' is where your statment falls down.

The Bush Administration is very adept at administering the policies into place that they deem important; huge tax breaks, relaxing pollution controls for industry, funding the military industrial complex, transferring America's wealth from the many to the few, etc, etc.

Hey, regarding the part about "HUGE TAX BREAKS" If you are so inclined to pay more in taxes then feel free; I am sure it is absolutely acceptable and legal to voluntarily pay additional taxes. And the Kerry family, who also complained about the tax breaks - they can too!

You sound like my 31 year old son. He's absolutely against the "HUGE TAX BREAKS" but very happy to get his refund. In fact, it's his opinion that people like Bill Gates don't need all the money they've earned: it should be taken by the government and given to people like my son who don't earn much. What a punch of hooey.

Take some economics classes.

 

[PeachMonkey]

Take some economics classes.

This has been discussed ad nauseum before, but from those of us that actually have taken some economics classes, I recommend you refer to those earlier threads that point out how poorly the trickle-down economics practiced by GW Bush and his cronies have worked in the past, how poorly they're thought of by economists, and the effects they're likely to have on our country, our people, and our world.

Bush's own father referred to the concept of reducing the taxes on the rich to boost the economy as "voodoo economics".

For a list of articles about the failure of trickle-down economics, start with this article (and thread):

http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=273637&postcount=38

In the end, however, people appear to be happily duped into allowing the wealthy continue to wage class warfare while the rest of us get hosed, and the American Dream exists less and less here and more and more only in other industrialized nations.

 

[PeachMonkey]

What is adept is how 'they' are able to undertake these policy changes with the permission of the American people (they won the election). By controlling the media via the right-wing echo chamber, they convince the American people to take actions against their own best interest.

It's the story we see time and again -- control the terms of the argument, and the message, convince people there's a crisis if there isn't, then control the means of solving the crisis. The Germans were great at it in the 1930's, and marketers have learned those lessons, including our right-wing buddies today.

We saw it with the welfare "reforms" of the Clinton era, which really just pushed people out into jobs that didn't pay the bills and helped to destroy families, eliminate their access to heatlhcare, and increase the rolls of the homeless; we saw it with the war on Iraq, where the lives of over a thousand American servicemen and women and countless Iraqis were wasted on the lies of an amoral administration; now we're seeing it with Social Security.

When you combine a populace that both lacks a truly aggressive media that digs for the truth and when that populace itself is not properly informed and educated to seek the truth themselves, this sort of manipulation is not unexpected.