Republican Party Official Charged...More Evidence of Election Hijinks!

[Makalakumu]

1. Who said status quo? I said focus on the reform and fix the problem instead of 'burn him at the stake.'

Why shouldn't the people who benefit from these tactics be held accountable? What did you think about this...

1. Form an independent commission filled with people on all sides that is hell bent on rooting out abuses by all sides.
2. Create nonpartisen public entities that take care of all election details including voting machines. Publish ALL information regarding this stuff in print and on the net.
3. Hold everone accountable for their actions, including the people that benefit knowingly or unknowingly. This may mean that some new elections need to be held.
4. Publish all information regarding such cases so that the public has the opportunity to know everything about the ways that people have been abusing their rights to vote.

Solution?

2. Our it could be because of a serious difference in political philosophy and a lack of REAL understanding of the philosophy and goals on the other side of the fence....if I am to keep an open mind about yours, shouldn't you as well about the long term goals of others?

Is my understanding of the other side of the fence, not REAL enough because I disagree? Perhaps my understanding is so REAL THAT I disagree.

3. Look above. If he/his adminstration have gone so far into corruption, why haven't we heard about impeachment? Disagreement does not mean 'demonize.'

Who controls the machinery that would start the impeachment process? Homework assignment...Google Impeach Bush.

4. Agreed, but that doesn't mean that you know all the details of the cases being compiled based on complaints (those would be confidential), or the decisions being made (and the reasons for them) in meetings and such. The results, the processes and such are public access, no doubt, but there are things like the REASONS and the amount of police calls that you are guessing or generalizing in the last thread - and some of the details in reports related to those incidents are not public accessible...see my point?

Yes, I see your point.

5. Well, that was MY point when I made the media comment. WHen it serves your purpose, they are a wealth of substantiation for you, yet we can't believe everything we get from the media?

There is a difference between collecting information and regurgitation.

6. Nope, I am not.

"In fact, violence in general, will probably backfire...as it usually does." And that isn't even the best quote I could find, just the one that came up first to illustrate my point. Putting words in your mouth? I don't think so.

Yes, you are. This does not need to get personal and isn't part of the discussion though. PM me if you have further questions.

7. far more evidence.....hmmmmm..

As in the cases are so simple, cut and dry, that reams of paperwork aren't needed...

8. Violence as metaphor for what? I don't see what you are getting at.

He races like a gazelle. I'm so mad I could break out the torches and pitchforks...metaphor.

9. So saying that sometimes it takes pitchforks and torches (as a metaphor for a lynch mob, which is the embodiment of vigilante justice) isn't endorsing vigilatism?

Again, its a metaphor for doing something with zeal.

The first step of accountabilty is a system that actually works well NOT finger pointing. If there is corruption loop holes, practices that let skullduggery to occur so easily then it needs to be reformed.

Should we just ignore the people who did these things? Should the people who benefitted ever know that we disapprove of this dirty mess? Sure, fix the system, but lets not forget why we fixed the system. What if the tables were turned?

 

[Tgace]

There wont be reforms because the party screaming loudest now will want to use the same tactics (or something similar) later...with politicians its more about sticking it to the opposition than it ever is about "justice".

 

[Makalakumu]

There wont be reforms because the party screaming loudest now will want to use the same tactics (or something similar) later...with politicians its more about sticking it to the opposition than it ever is about "justice".

And my idealism dies a slow death... :flame:

:asian:

For keeping it real...

 

[Tgace]

Not saying there "shouldn't be"...just wont be holding my breath.

 

[Tgace]

There also wont be reform as long as we use it as an attack method on our politician/party of choice....thats part of the big problem of partisanship IMO. We are all guilty of pointing out the sliver in our enemies eye while ignoring the beam in our own.

 

[Makalakumu]

Good point.

I think my biggest problem with this kind of stuff from 2000 to 2004, is that extreme plans that have been on hold for six decades are slipping out of the woodwork. This plan for Social Security and PNAC for example. Our administration and government is pushing an extreme right wing agenda in an attempt to "reform" society. The people in power have shown that they will go to just about any lengths to push this agenda. Tactics like this and things described in other threads are only part of the list of greivences against the American People.

Our country is split 50/50. Our government should relfect that. The reason it does not is a direct result of election tampering and other dirty tricks.

upnorthkyosa

 

[loki09789]

1. Why shouldn't the people who benefit from these tactics be held accountable? What did you think about this...

Solution?


2. Is my understanding of the other side of the fence, not REAL enough because I disagree? Perhaps my understanding is so REAL THAT I disagree.

3. Who controls the machinery that would start the impeachment process? Homework assignment...Google Impeach Bush.

4. There is a difference between collecting information and regurgitation.

5. Yes, you are. This does not need to get personal and isn't part of the discussion though. PM me if you have further questions.

6. He races like a gazelle. I'm so mad I could break out the torches and pitchforks...metaphor.

7. Again, its a metaphor for doing something with zeal.

8. Should we just ignore the people who did these things? Should the people who benefitted ever know that we disapprove of this dirty mess? Sure, fix the system, but lets not forget why we fixed the system. What if the tables were turned?

1. Never said they shouldn't be held accountable. As far as solution, that is a valid response, but proportionate to the amount of 'finger pointing' comments, this is a spit in the ocean.

2. Ah...but does it color your view so much that you are not 'open to changing your view' when new data comes your way? Sometimes when you form a view, you don't see the other stuff that might change that view and only continue to see the stuff that confirms your opinion. That use of 'you' is people in general btw.

3. I believe that our voted representatives have a bit of say in that...and since we have public announcements of things like this Republican official being taken to task, why don't we see the same about impeachment?

4. Yes, there is.....I won't touch that one since it really doesn't address the dichotomous perceptions of the media.

5. 'am not , I am simply quoting your own words...as far as getting 'personal' I am really confused on the consistency and clarity of some of your stances, that's all. If questioning that is too 'personal' then imagine how someone like Bush or anyone else that you have deemed a 'morgoth,' I believe the term was, would feel ....... I think that would be a 'tables turned' observation in application.

6&7. As an English teacher, I would say that you are correct that 'doing something with zeal' is a basic interp of the pitchforks and torches metaphor...but that it is LADEN with vigilante/lynch mob connotation when used. I wouldn't go into the office and say "Let's break out the pitchforks and torches, Boys. We have a lot of work to do..."

8. Again, I NEVER said that these people should not be held accountable. Simply that focusing time, volumes of text and energy on 'justice' as you call it instead of how to avoid it happening in the future is fruitless.

And for clarity: What tables and how would they be turned?

 

[Makalakumu]

1. Never said they shouldn't be held accountable. As far as solution, that is a valid response, but proportionate to the amount of 'finger pointing' comments, this is a spit in the ocean.

Where one sees "finger pointing" another sees justifying the reason for a solution.

2. Ah...but does it color your view so much that you are not 'open to changing your view' when new data comes your way? Sometimes when you form a view, you don't see the other stuff that might change that view and only continue to see the stuff that confirms your opinion. That use of 'you' is people in general btw.

You may be right. I am biased as hell in this case. I can't stand our president's ideologic agenda. Yet, I "attempt" to keep an open mind like anyone else, and I haven't seen very much to justify certain actions. I don't disagree with everything the Administration has done, but that list pales in comparison to the other.

If one thing can be said about me, though, is that I do my research. Perhaps a little obsessively. :idunno: I take pride in being informed, that is all.

3. I believe that our voted representatives have a bit of say in that...and since we have public announcements of things like this Republican official being taken to task, why don't we see the same about impeachment?

Did you do the search yet?

4. Yes, there is.....I won't touch that one since it really doesn't address the dichotomous perceptions of the media.

It does indeed! Investigation and collection of information is what determines veracity. With investigation, you can analyze the means and you can understand exactly where and how that information was obtained. That is why I posted legal docs, academic studies, professional analysis, statistical analysis, etc...This is much more reliable then sitting behind a computer and reading press releases of replete with propagandic garbage.

5. 'am not , I am simply quoting your own words...as far as getting 'personal' I am really confused on the consistency and clarity of some of your stances, that's all. If questioning that is too 'personal' then imagine how someone like Bush or anyone else that you have deemed a 'morgoth,' I believe the term was, would feel ....... I think that would be a 'tables turned' observation in application..

Okay, you got me hooked. First off, I felt that this was a bit over the top...

I said...

I believe that the Right has good ideas to bring to the political table. I am a fan of accountability, individuality, fiscal responsability, families, etc.

You responded with...

This is like saying, "Really I am a huge fan of healthy eating" as you chow down on a big mac right in front of the people.

...and attempted to justify this with two misrepresentations of my positions. This is why I feel we have crossed a personal boundary. The above is an unsubstantiated attack on my beliefs and little unfair considering the limits of our conversive power.

Now to tackle these statements...

You said...

Again, you claim in a personal philosophy that 'violence is never right' and then comments like this?

I said...

Also, stop and think before you type some thing like "...for a person who thinks that 'violence is never right..." How could I, as a martial artist, think this? Do you think that you may be putting words in my mouth?

You said...

Nope, I am not. "In fact, violence in general, will probably backfire...as it usually does." And that isn't even the best quote I could find, just the one that came up first to illustrate my point. Putting words in your mouth? I don't think so.

I am a reluctant warrior. I fight when forced. I do everything in my power to avoid violence and I believe that others should do the same for the betterment of our world. I believe that Peace is the only Perfect Self Defense and that a peaceful solution should always be sought in favor of a violent one. Further, I believe that violence is a failure to adhere to the above principles. I believe that we should feel a little shame to have to resort to violence. We need to be introspective afterward in order to analyze our behavior and correct it so that we can meet the italicized ideal. Lastly, I believe that all violence is abhorrent, but in this imperfect world sometimes absolutely unavoidable.

I am a flawed pacifist, struggling to reach a goal that is unattainable, living in a balanced world of yin and yang. This is my interpretation of Budo (the Korean term is Mudo). The above is the Yin (um) in my Art and is idealistic. The Yang in my Art reflects realism. The world is what it is and in order to live in this world, one cannot avoid a balance the two.

Does that clarify things?

6&7. As an English teacher, I would say that you are correct that 'doing something with zeal' is a basic interp of the pitchforks and torches metaphor...but that it is LADEN with vigilante/lynch mob connotation when used. I wouldn't go into the office and say "Let's break out the pitchforks and torches, Boys. We have a lot of work to do..."

Sure it is, but there is a difference between thought and action. Also, I think I would use the phrase "Let's break out the pitchforks and torches, Boys. We have a lot of work to do..." There is an element of humor in that statement.

8. Again, I NEVER said that these people should not be held accountable. Simply that focusing time, volumes of text and energy on 'justice' as you call it instead of how to avoid it happening in the future is fruitless.

I think that if you make an assertion that "something is broken" then you should make every effort to justify why you think so. Otherwise you may just be offering solutions to "fix somethin that ain't broke..."

Do you see where I am coming from? You may agree that the problem needs to be fixed, but what about others?

 

[loki09789]

1. Did you do the search yet?

2. It does indeed! Investigation and collection of information is what determines veracity. With investigation, you can analyze the means and you can understand exactly where and how that information was obtained. That is why I posted legal docs, academic studies, professional analysis, statistical analysis, etc...This is much more reliable then sitting behind a computer and reading press releases of replete with propagandic garbage.

3. I am a flawed pacifist, struggling to reach a goal that is unattainable, living in a balanced world of yin and yang. This is my interpretation of Budo (the Korean term is Mudo). The above is the Yin (um) in my Art and is idealistic. The Yang in my Art reflects realism. The world is what it is and in order to live in this world, one cannot avoid a balance the two.

Does that clarify things?

4. Sure it is, but there is a difference between thought and action. Also, I think I would use the phrase "Let's break out the pitchforks and torches, Boys. We have a lot of work to do..." There is an element of humor in that statement.

5. I think that if you make an assertion that "something is broken" then you should make every effort to justify why you think so. Otherwise you may just be offering solutions to "fix somethin that ain't broke..."

Do you see where I am coming from? You may agree that the problem needs to be fixed, but what about others?

1. Honestly, no I did not. Why? Because you are the one making the point to a fellow discourser/debator. I am not a student to be sent off to do research. If you have a point to make and feel that there is supporting evidence....then do it. You have done this in the past, now is as good as then.

2. Yes, but with your admitted bias, what information are you looking for and what are you finding? What are you keeping? How are you setting up your search?...Even Neo Nazi's can find stuff that justifies and supports their views.

3. Your explanation clears things up some. Complaining about the 'impossible' though doesn't make it more possible though. Doing somethign about it and getting past the complaining is where the rubber meets the road. Within Budo there is still the Zenish idea of not fixating on something. Fixating on the doers instead of fixing the problem is not effective Budo. Just like in MA, if you are dwelling on what you did wrong 2 seconds ago, you are not 'in the moment' and therefore are more likely to do poorly.

4. Yes and thought preceeds actions, they also reveal 'truth' beyond proclamations that people will make when they are directly talking about themselves. ("I am an xyz person....")

In the context of these discussions, the pitchfork/torch comment is/was not meant in a humors way.

If you were to use the pitchfork/torch metaphor for your 'zeal' to hold a student 'accountable' within the letter of an administrative 'justice code' about cheating or plagerism in your school while talking to his parents in a conference. I doubt that they would find it humoruos either. They would probably interpret that as you being 'out to get their child.'

5. As in the past, you have well asserted what you think is broken and requires fixing. You have presented what you have found as supporting evidence. Honestly, if that is all you are doing, whether people agree or not should not be a distraction if you are satisfied with the volume, objectivity and thoroughness of your research, Resolve away......

 

[lvwhitebir]

Our country is split 50/50. Our government should relfect that.

We also have about 50% women, and what about the proportion of blacks and hispanics? Should we require the government to completely reflect the population? Or do we let the voters decide on their candidate of choice and let it be. I voted for the candidate to do what he said he would do. I didn't vote for a candidate to get in office and say that he isn't going to do it now because he didn't get 100% of the votes.

The reason it does not is a direct result of election tampering and other dirty tricks.

That's your belief. I believe our government reflects the majority vote, plain and simple. Sometimes there's more Republicans, sometimes more Democrats. No election fraud has been proven as of yet. There are multiple sides to every story; one sees fraud while another sees simple, systemic problems. But we digress...

This story smacks of dirty politics because of the possible intent of the perpetrators. Illegal? I don't know, but I find it hard to believe. Voting fraud? I can't see how this would have influenced an election.

WhiteBirch

 

[rmcrobertson]

One of the fundamental differences between us bleeding-heart liberals and the current crop of right-wing ideologues running the country is, in point of fact, that we have a well-documented history of noticing, considering, and attempting to fix our mistakes. Bush, Rice, Cheney, Ashcroft, and their ilk do not.

Nonetheless, I don't find this, "election fraud," stuff convincing. I consider it rather more disturbing that the Republicans won fair and square--by whipping up xenophobia, by whipping up fear and hatred of gay people, by lying about our current fun little war, by lying about our economy, by whipping up fear and hatred and envy of one's fellow Americans, by claiming that shredding parts of the Constitution has become necessary.

You folks do know that the Bush admin is currently in court to defend their claim that American citizens can be arrested without a warrant, held without a lawyer, held without charge, and kept in jail without allowing either the defendant or their representation or even a Federal judge to see the evidence against them?

 

[Makalakumu]

1. Honestly, no I did not. Why? Because you are the one making the point to a fellow discourser/debator. I am not a student to be sent off to do research. If you have a point to make and feel that there is supporting evidence....then do it. You have done this in the past, now is as good as then...

No, you are not a student to be sent off. This is pretty common information though. On this forum alone there have been multiple threads dedicated to the impeachment of the president. A simple search will reveal the usual screaming schills, but it will also reveal some very legitimate and well researched efforts to have Mr. Bush removed from office.

2. Yes, but with your admitted bias, what information are you looking for and what are you finding? What are you keeping? How are you setting up your search?...Even Neo Nazi's can find stuff that justifies and supports their views.

All of those are good questions. All I can say is that I do my best to remain objective and look at multiple sides. For instance, concerning the legal issue around Ohio's Secratary of State James Blackwell, I read transcripts, official statements, and opinions written by himself and his supporters. Still, considering the pool of evidence, their story is not plausible.

3. Your explanation clears things up some. Complaining about the 'impossible' though doesn't make it more possible though. Doing somethign about it and getting past the complaining is where the rubber meets the road. Within Budo there is still the Zenish idea of not fixating on something. Fixating on the doers instead of fixing the problem is not effective Budo. Just like in MA, if you are dwelling on what you did wrong 2 seconds ago, you are not 'in the moment' and therefore are more likely to do poorly.

Your wisdom is welcome. I am a recovering perfectionist.

4. Yes and thought preceeds actions, they also reveal 'truth' beyond proclamations that people will make when they are directly talking about themselves. ("I am an xyz person....")

Thought police? Where are we free from judgement?

In the context of these discussions, the pitchfork/torch comment is/was not meant in a humors way.

No, it was not, but it still was a metaphor...

If you were to use the pitchfork/torch metaphor for your 'zeal' to hold a student 'accountable' within the letter of an administrative 'justice code' about cheating or plagerism in your school while talking to his parents in a conference. I doubt that they would find it humoruos either. They would probably interpret that as you being 'out to get their child.'

True. There are contexts where comments like this would be innappropriate. And there are some where it would be neutral. And there are some where it is more then warrented.

5. As in the past, you have well asserted what you think is broken and requires fixing. You have presented what you have found as supporting evidence. Honestly, if that is all you are doing, whether people agree or not should not be a distraction if you are satisfied with the volume, objectivity and thoroughness of your research, Resolve away......

I just don't think we have reached the resolution stage as a greater society, yet.

 

[Makalakumu]

We also have about 50% women, and what about the proportion of blacks and hispanics? Should we require the government to completely reflect the population? Or do we let the voters decide on their candidate of choice and let it be.

There are many oppressive factors that have kept the numbers of the above groups unnaturally low in regards to governmental representation.

I voted for the candidate to do what he said he would do. I didn't vote for a candidate to get in office and say that he isn't going to do it now because he didn't get 100% of the votes.

A candidate needs to get 50.1 % of the vote in a race comprised of two people. If this is legitimately done, then I have no problems. That is democracy. If I were the candidate that one, I would keep in mind that 49.9 % of the population is a large amount of people to piss off...

That's your belief. I believe our government reflects the majority vote, plain and simple. Sometimes there's more Republicans, sometimes more Democrats. No election fraud has been proven as of yet. There are multiple sides to every story; one sees fraud while another sees simple, systemic problems. But we digress....

The key word here is proven. I'm not sure what your standard of proof is, but I presented the same case to other conservatives and we could agree that there was at least enough to suspect election fraud.

Personally, I believe that there is plenty of evidence to prove election fraud occured. Eye witness accounts (that were video taped!!!) of tampering, court depositions, leaked memos, etc...I have posted this evidence ad exhaustum. I do not believe there is enough evidence to do much more then speculate at its extent yet. In my opinion, there are clear indicators that this phenomenon may be nationwide.

This story smacks of dirty politics because of the possible intent of the perpetrators. Illegal? I don't know, but I find it hard to believe. Voting fraud? I can't see how this would have influenced an election.

The article states that criminal charges were filed.

As far as influence on elections is concerned, the purpose behind the phone calls was not to sway opinion. It was to get out the vote. In fact, the most important thing party workers do on election day (and the week running up to the election) is attempt to get out the vote. This is where the ideas hit the pavement and start moving. Phone calls are being made to urge people to vote and both parties are doing it. Doing anything to hinder this effort could have a serious impact on the results for the party under attack.

These tactics appear to be widespread. There are similar reports coming from all of the battleground states. Incidentally, I have yet to find a single instance of Republicans making claims that the same happened to them.

 

[Makalakumu]

Nonetheless, I don't find this, "election fraud," stuff convincing.

What about "this stuff" isn't convincing? Beverly Harris, of blackboxvoting.org, caught election officials in Florida on video committing fraud. She filed an FIOA and attempted to get the public documentation of the vote. She showed up early and found the (original) records in trash bags. After she ordered her people to grab the bags, she confronted the election officials on camera. There she recorded election officials trashing more records and ALTERING ones that were to be given to her! A scuffle ensued. The cops were called. She now has both copies of the records and can DIRECTLY CONFIRM that they were altered in order to cover up the discrepancy between the actual amount of paper votes for Bush and the amount electronically reported.

What isn't convincing about this?

And then stories like the above keep popping up? How high is your bar, Robert?

 

[loki09789]

I just don't think we have reached the resolution stage as a greater society, yet.

Well, I don't think that your posts here are going to have a huge impact on convincing the 'greater society' but you have clearly stated your position, which is all any of us can really do. Now that we know where you stand and why you have chosen to be there.....so what? How do we 'make it fly' so to speak according to you?

 

[rmcrobertson]

I'm certainly not arguing that there were no abuses of the system.

I simply find that many (not all, but many) of these claims boil down to:

a) shock in the face of political machines behaving like political machines;
b) people unhappy with the election outcome (as well they should be!) screaming about poll workers doing the paperwork and rejecting their candidates' votes for perfectly sound technical reasons;
c) shock about the way persistent racism appears in elections if you but look;
d) a very skewed understanding of the country's political mood;
e) leftist and liberal annoyance at the fact that they got just plain out-politiciked on a number of different levels by people who did the shitwork of politics better during this last election;
f) persistent left-wing petulance (often, on the part of some very privileged people) at the refusal of working-class people to do what they're told to do by the "intelligentsia."

And oh yes--I think a lot of this stuff comes out of the fact that Americans tend to be a weird combo of cynical and naive about what democracy is, and about how politics have actually worked in our history.