Obama Team Feared Coup If He Prosecuted War Crmes

[Bob Hubbard]

Hmmm...then for those who do not support the mild form of CIA waterboarding, I guess drone attacks, bombing cities with civillian populations, engaging in close combat in urban terrain, with civillians present and staging raids where the target (bin laden) is actually killed are also forbidden by your code of ethics and morality? So to would be giving the police firearms, and probably mace as well since chemical warfare was used in world war 1 and we wouldn't want to be seen using chemical weapons, of any kind, on civillians whose only crime is resisting arrest or protesting their government. I guess it would be a nicer world if the tactics you believe in were the only ones we used.

Bill, lets find a CIA op to waterboard you. You can then be an expert and let us know first hand how effective and harmless it was.

Torture of prisioners is not the same as warfare, which " drone attacks, bombing cities with civillian populations, engaging in close combat in urban terrain, with civillians present and staging raids where the target (bin laden) is actually killed" are.
However, blind targeting of civilian populations IS illegal and violation of treaty.

A can of mace is about as close to chemical warfare as a fart. There is a vast difference between a personal can and what Saddam used on the Kurds.

Again, all of these have nothing, nada, zippo, ziltch, not a bob damned thing, to do with torture as you very well know.

 

[billc]

So, giving your child a swat on the butt for running into the street is the same as killing 14000 people in a Khmer Rouge prison camp. You are

punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed

And since the public officials will not arrest you for it, are you not engaging in torture of the worst kind when you swat you kid?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Then killing bin laden was murder.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/vi...aden_is_ok_why_cant_you_do_waterboarding.html

Yes, it possibly was. If he was in fact unarmed, in the process of surrendering, or just outright executed.
You'd be quite surprised how often that happens.
Just recently a photographer was murdered by US troops.
But as in the case of this photographer, confusion of battle (which in both cases was ongoing) mitigates that.
A significant difference here between these 2 examples and say the Malmedy massacre.

You're purposefully muddying the discussion seeking to legitimize and vindicate a disgraced and debunked position.I doubt anyone here fails to see this.

 

[Sukerkin]

So Sukerkin, a police officer who shoots a man about to shoot another, innocent, unarmed man is no different?

Isn't the policeman following his legally defined duty if he does such a thing?

The whole point, so I thought, of this thread was to show that those performing their duties under adverse conditions in prison facilities such as Gitmo are not the second incarnation of the Waffen SS. Also, it should not be forgotten that those who illegally tortured prisoners {putting aside the very important issue of whether they were prisoners of war or not} were punished for it. Now whether all that were punished were all that should have been is a whole other matter.

It's a moral minefield we walk into when we touch on these matters, I know. I keep saying that the real world, that we cosy citizens usually don't see, is a very dark and dirty place. We should not ignore it and should not think that there's nothing we can do about it - that's what we have an electoral system for at the end of the day - but neither should we pretend that vile things are not done in our name out of our sight. All we can do is try to make sure that the old aphorism, about people getting the government they deserve, doesn't show us up to be poor examples of a citizenry.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

So, giving your child a swat on the butt for running into the street is the same as killing 14000 people in a Khmer Rouge prison camp. You are




And since the public officials will not arrest you for it, are you not engaging in torture of the worst kind when you swat you kid?

Show me where in US Federal law, any state law, or local law where "giving your child a swat on the butt" is listed as murder, torture or a violation of human rights.

You can't.

Because as always, your example is so far off course, it was charted by someone named Earhart.

 

[billc]

I once again submitt my proposal to do a demonstration. I will be waterboarded, using the CIA method, if another debater will allow their front two teeth knocked out with a chisel and hammer. According to the rules of our demo, we will wait 24 hours for pain medication to be applied in both of our cases. During the 24 hour period, certain tasks must be completed. A nice steak dinner must be eaten. A nice period of restful sleep must be completed. Other tasks will be thought about but that is the idea. Heck, I would be waterboarded for charity. Let's say, a certain amount of money will be donated to a charity of either mine or the trained CIA interrogator who would conduct the waterboarding according to the above mentioned criteria. A certain time period could be set for my resistance, if I passed that time, my charity would get the cash, if he got me to break in under that time, his charity would get the money. How about that?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

nope. Go be waterboarded, then tell us how it wasn't so bad.
I'd like to be there though. Lord Vader wants to know where the Rebel Base is and I'm sure you'll tell us before it's over.

 

[billc]

I used the legal definition of torture as supplied by Elder.

Any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person, information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity.

I believe that if you are not arrested for it that would be

acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity.

[/QUOTE]

and that Any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as... punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person

 

[billc]

I have no doubt I would break. Three hardened Jihadi Terrorist leaders, responsible for well over 3000 deaths around the world, and who know how much maiming and grief of other innocent victims, broke under waterboarding and gave information that saved lives. I'm sure that the death star would be on it's way to the rebel base in short order.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I'll disagree on a few points, but we can discuss that more over some BBQ Ewok.

 

[billc]

The native Ewok needs to be carefully prepared though, due to it's overly Saccharine flavor.

 

[billc]

Have nice weekends everyone. I'll argue again later.

 

[Twin Fist]

mmmmmm,,,,,,,,,ewok brisket

I'll disagree on a few points, but we can discuss that more over some BBQ Ewok.