A Stolen Election in 2004?

[Makalakumu]

Third world,...why yes! I do remember numerous reports of car bombs and strong arm tactics (guns, killings of family members, ....) happening before the election. I do remember all the cases of businesses turning away customers that they knew were Democrats....

Not all third world countries are unstable. If this is the best we can do...

Come on. "Skulldugery" as in conspiracy or just hick/numbscull tactics and inefficiency that needs to be regulated.

There are two things that you are doing that do not compute with the evidence.

1. Creating some pancy pants fantasy conspiracy in order to charicature this argument.
2. Reducing this from an obviously coordinated effort to stupid hickdom.

My post above is a reality check.

I do find it interesting that any mention of more centralized/regulated/consistent standards would take us into a discussion about bleeding the soveriegnity of state/local power though.

Fixing the system so the irregularities and fraud are addressed is an entirely new topic. It would be a good thread.

Don't you think that the whole "Right wing" stuff that you are saying
'they' are getting away with could be because, traditionally, Democrats have pushed and pulled for less centralized power and therefore contributed to the creation of a very awkward, uncoordinated system with enough 'cracks' for stuff like this to fall through...and if so, who do you think was doing this stuff already....Democrats....

I don't know if the current system's failure can be wholly placed on the dems lap. Again, this would be a good discussion for a new thread about reforming elections.

 

[Tgace]

So where is there any evidence of a "smoking man" driving around minority polling places calling the police with parking complaints? Convient unproveable theory for why the racist police were oppressing voters on election day.

Who calls in parking complaints? Typically some irate resident or business owner with a hair up their ***.

 

[Makalakumu]

So where is there any evidence of a "smoking man" driving around minority polling places calling the police with parking complaints?

Two words...phone records.

Convient unproveable theory for why the racist police were oppressing voters on election day.

There you go with the racist thing. Don't try and distract the issue by inserting this kind of red herring. NOBODY IS SAYING THAT COPS ARE RACIST.

And, actually, this "theory" is very "proveable" if one attempts to investigate.

Attempts to investigate is the key...rather then just blowing it off.

Who calls in parking complaints? Typically some irate resident or business owner with a hair up their ***.

Well, in this case, since there were parking problems everywhere and the cops showed up only at certain specific polling places, I would say that the callers in this case were indeed part of a small group of people who cooked up a plan to scare people away from poor/minority polling places.

 

[loki09789]

Not all third world countries are unstable. If this is the best we can do...



There are two things that you are doing that do not compute with the evidence.

1. Creating some pancy pants fantasy conspiracy in order to charicature this argument.
2. Reducing this from an obviously coordinated effort to stupid hickdom.

My post above is a reality check.



Fixing the system so the irregularities and fraud are addressed is an entirely new topic. It would be a good thread.



I don't know if the current system's failure can be wholly placed on the dems lap. Again, this would be a good discussion for a new thread about reforming elections.

Your correct, not all 3rd world nations are unstable - some have organized corruption and plotted intimidation tactics on how they control elections along with other areas of politics.

I don't think that I am the one postulating 'conspiracy' here. I am one of many that is actually using the term outright instead of hedging around it.

And using a term like 'hickdom' to describe bullying tactics is bad, but piling disconnected examples of poor management and bad practices indicates a planned, coordinated disruption of Democratic party voting. Just because there are no reports of Rep complaints in the volume that seem to be coming in from Dem sources doesn't mean they ran better, just means that they aren't complaining in the same ways - maybe they were focusing on voting?

Again, piling 'evidence' isn't reality check. Connect the dots clearly to state your case, if this was a verbal discussion or a written article, it would be very poorly presented. I know your trying to lead us with bread crumbs so that we say what you want us to, but it would be better if you just stated what you want to say and start from there.

It is sort of like talking......."to someone who baits others into finishing their sentences?"

Exactly. Because they really wants to prove their point by getting others to...."say it out loud as if that will prove anything?"

YUP!

As far as other thread topics, I am a firm believer that if you feel rightously indignant about something, then you should take the time to offer alternatives and solutions instead of just venting and complaining about it. So, any suggestions to change/reform would probably pretty appropriate here as well IMO - as opposed to just complaining about the dark when your holding the flashlight....

 

[loki09789]

Well, in this case, since there were parking problems everywhere and the cops showed up only at certain specific polling places, I would say that the callers in this case were indeed part of a small group of people who cooked up a plan to scare people away from poor/minority polling places.

Where all those locations within the same police district? If not, then it really doesn't say much.

And this comment does not take into account man power and prioritizing call responses where parking lot complaints are a lower priority than controlling an accident or responding to another more urgent call.

 

[Tgace]

Is there a report somewhere detailing where there were "parking problems" and the number of citations issued? Where is the evidence that there were problems "everywhere" but the (non racist) cops decided to only enforce in specific areas, and no police official noticed that fact.

So weve gone from the police being involved in "Jim Crow" style voter oppression to non-racist cops just doing their jobs. Thats good at least.....

 

[loki09789]

Is there a report somewhere detailing where there were "parking problems" and the number of citations issued? Where is the evidence that there were problems "everywhere" but the (non racist) cops decided to only enforce in specific areas, and no police official noticed that fact.

So weve gone from the police being involved in "Jim Crow" style voter oppression to non-racist cops just doing their jobs. Thats good at least.....

Come on now, TOM. It is absolutely unfair to expect someone to make a point about something with second/third/fourth hand data that has been set up like a library reading list AND THEN expect them to clearly articulate the theoretical link/theme that makes these data chunks related and evidencially significant to that point.

 

[Tgace]

I heard there was road construction, suspiciously enough, near several minority polling places. I think the dept. of transportation was in on it too......

 

[modarnis]

>>And I think that you are forgetting that the perps are human beings. They have connections to family and friends and many of these people have never done anything wrong in their lives. Yet, I'm sure they get a constant earfull of how "day bein hassled by da po-lice...">>

I think you are are making serious assumptions about what I believe or don't believe. My work as a prosecutor leads me to deal with lots of people from all walks of life. I treat everyone I meet like I would want my mother or grandmother treated until they give me a reason otherwise. Often times, the ones who give me a reason to treat them badly make similar assumptions about what I may think. What I think doesn't always matter, what I can prove does. Bottom line where I work, there is a big difference between evidence and peoples excuses.

Back to the topic at hand, in your experiences maybe police don't present themselves in polling places. In the states I've lived and voted (Connecticut, Louisiana, and Massachussets) THere were always officers in uniform at the polling places, regardless of the demographic of the city/town/district. I remember this in Connecticut 30 years ago when I would tag along with my parents to vote. When I lived in New Orleans and now here in Connecticut, there are uniformed police in the grocery stores. The store we shop in is one of the most racially diverse places you could find. Mere police presence there doesn't seem to dissuade anyone from shopping, regardless of their race or economic status.

Good bad or otherwise, the constitution puts control of the voting places with the states. Each state administers the vote their own way. In all of the materials you have presented, I have yet to see anything but a collection of hearsay statements from people, a few questionable affidavits if in my legal opinion I could even call them that, and lots of dots that when misconnected paint a silly picture that probably isn't reality. When toddlers and preschoolers do this, we venture to teach them how to connect the dots in a logical order to get the right picture. So far in the info presented here I see lots of scribble.

Link me to some real documents from legitimate sources (police dispatch logs, citation records in the instant issue; voter registration lists/compared to actual functioning machines in a district, or documented machine malfunctions that are noted on an official exception form that polling places often have) that could be gained from FOI requests to show discrepancies, and my mind could be changed. If there were any real evidence that isn't easily impeached, it would have been readily available by now. Hearsay and double hearsay statements don't cut it

 

[Makalakumu]

There have been links to expert witness testimony, congressional reports, state supreme court cases, scientific statistical analysis from Princeton and MIT among other universities, FBI investigations, and eye witness reports. Barring the opinion articles, ALL of the direct evidence I have posted was presented to Congress. In my opinion, for any reasonable person, there is evidence of fraud, intimidation, and illegal abuse of power.

Whodunnit will require further investigation in some cases.

 

[Makalakumu]

Your correct, not all 3rd world nations are unstable - some have organized corruption and plotted intimidation tactics on how they control elections along with other areas of politics.

hmmmmm

I don't think that I am the one postulating 'conspiracy' here. I am one of many that is actually using the term outright instead of hedging around it.

"Conspiracy" is a term that draws many connections. The connections that you have made in regards to this case do not describe what actually happened.

And using a term like 'hickdom' to describe bullying tactics is bad, but piling disconnected examples of poor management and bad practices indicates a planned, coordinated disruption of Democratic party voting. Just because there are no reports of Rep complaints in the volume that seem to be coming in from Dem sources doesn't mean they ran better, just means that they aren't complaining in the same ways - maybe they were focusing on voting?

Disconnected? I don't think so. Ohio Secratary of State James Blackwell spearheaded a lot of what we saw. He is currently doing his best to dodge the law.

Perhaps republicans aren't complaining because democrats don't do stuff like this.

Again, piling 'evidence' isn't reality check. Connect the dots clearly to state your case, if this was a verbal discussion or a written article, it would be very poorly presented. I know your trying to lead us with bread crumbs so that we say what you want us to, but it would be better if you just stated what you want to say and start from there.

Poorly presented? Perhaps there is a fair bit of bias in that assessment...

As far as other thread topics, I am a firm believer that if you feel rightously indignant about something, then you should take the time to offer alternatives and solutions instead of just venting and complaining about it. So, any suggestions to change/reform would probably pretty appropriate here as well IMO - as opposed to just complaining about the dark when your holding the flashlight....

Recognition of the problem needs to occur before one can suggest solutions.

 

[Makalakumu]

Is there a report somewhere detailing where there were "parking problems" and the number of citations issued? Where is the evidence that there were problems "everywhere" but the (non racist) cops decided to only enforce in specific areas, and no police official noticed that fact.

There is a report, but I have yet to come across it. The report was cited in the congressional report, two state supreme court cases, and multiple articles.

So weve gone from the police being involved in "Jim Crow" style voter oppression to non-racist cops just doing their jobs. Thats good at least.....

There was a lot more to Jim Crowe style voter suppression then racist cops. There are other parellels that are more indicative.

 

[modarnis]

>>ALL of the direct evidence I have posted was presented to Congress. In my opinion, for any reasonable person, there is evidence of fraud, intimidation, and illegal abuse of power>>

Yet none of it appears in the easily searchable transcripts of Congress.

None of the links to abny of the statistical analysis show the raw data or cite where the raw data was collected. For a study to be scientifically acceptable, it needs to be reproducable. I should be able to apply the same methodology and analysis to the raw data and get the same result within an acceptable margin of error

 

[Makalakumu]

I think you are are making serious assumptions about what I believe or don't believe. My work as a prosecutor leads me to deal with lots of people from all walks of life. I treat everyone I meet like I would want my mother or grandmother treated until they give me a reason otherwise. Often times, the ones who give me a reason to treat them badly make similar assumptions about what I may think. What I think doesn't always matter, what I can prove does. Bottom line where I work, there is a big difference between evidence and peoples excuses.

I'm with you here. In my line of work, I deal with the same things.

Back to the topic at hand, in your experiences maybe police don't present themselves in polling places. In the states I've lived and voted (Connecticut, Louisiana, and Massachussets) THere were always officers in uniform at the polling places, regardless of the demographic of the city/town/district. I remember this in Connecticut 30 years ago when I would tag along with my parents to vote. When I lived in New Orleans and now here in Connecticut, there are uniformed police in the grocery stores. The store we shop in is one of the most racially diverse places you could find. Mere police presence there doesn't seem to dissuade anyone from shopping, regardless of their race or economic status.

I think that people who are illegally parked because of eight hour voting lines will be dissuaded when they start to see tickets handed out and cars towed. They may even feel singled out when they find out that other parking problems in other districts were not handled in the same way.

Good bad or otherwise, the constitution puts control of the voting places with the states. Each state administers the vote their own way. In all of the materials you have presented, I have yet to see anything but a collection of hearsay statements from people, a few questionable affidavits if in my legal opinion I could even call them that, and lots of dots that when misconnected paint a silly picture that probably isn't reality. When toddlers and preschoolers do this, we venture to teach them how to connect the dots in a logical order to get the right picture. So far in the info presented here I see lots of scribble.

I don't know if you have been in this conversation from the beginning, but I have gone back and reread this thread multiple times. I can find a clear and logical interplay back and forth between the participants. There are no misconnected points. Things have been addressed logically and rationally with some very credible citations.

Link me to some real documents from legitimate sources (police dispatch logs, citation records in the instant issue; voter registration lists/compared to actual functioning machines in a district, or documented machine malfunctions that are noted on an official exception form that polling places often have) that could be gained from FOI requests to show discrepancies, and my mind could be changed. If there were any real evidence that isn't easily impeached, it would have been readily available by now. Hearsay and double hearsay statements don't cut it

Not only has this already been done, but links have been made to other groups that are doing the same thing. See...

www.blackboxvoting.org

Beverly Harris's work on this stuff represents one of the biggest FOI in the history of our nation.

 

[Makalakumu]

>>ALL of the direct evidence I have posted was presented to Congress. In my opinion, for any reasonable person, there is evidence of fraud, intimidation, and illegal abuse of power>>

Yet none of it appears in the easily searchable transcripts of Congress.

None of the links to abny of the statistical analysis show the raw data or cite where the raw data was collected. For a study to be scientifically acceptable, it needs to be reproducable. I should be able to apply the same methodology and analysis to the raw data and get the same result within an acceptable margin of error

The evidence was presented to congress on Thursday, January 6th, 2005.

Statistical results have been posted and repeated independently by reputable organizations like Princeton and MIT.

The raw data has also been posted and I have repeated the results with my own statistical training.

 

[Makalakumu]

This post is worth repeating.

One thing that people have got to realize is that the fraudulent activities that occured in 2004 were local. They were constructed by people who knew the battlefield intimately and had the power to influence things on a local level.

This isn't some kind of vast network created and managed by the White House. That is absolutely absurd. These people are part of small independent groups engaged in the type of dirty trick grassroots politics that Right Wingers have been employing for ages. This is nothing new and it still is unacceptable.

Here is what makes this year different though. In some states, there is evidence that state officials involved in the election process abused their power and broke the law in order to influence the election. Ohio Secratary of State James Blackwell was cited in the congressional report.

Here is a sample of some of the laws he broke...

1. He made new rules for the handing out of provisional ballots on election day. These new rules were in violation of Ohio election law. The result was that this vastly increased the amount of people who would be handed these ballots. As reported by eyewitness account and by Ohio public record, most of these ballots were handed out in minority/poor districts.
2. He made new rules for the counting of these ballots. These new rules were in violation of Ohio election law. The result was that 4/5's of the ballots were thrown away. Of the 1/5th that were left, John Kerry recieved 37,000 more votes. George Bush recieved 1,500.
3. He ordered the holding back of voting machines to certain districts on election day. This was a violation of Ohio's equal access laws. The result was absurdly long lines in poor/minority voting districts.
4. He ordered the abolishment of curbside voting. This was a violation of Ohio's equal access laws. The result was the disenfranchisement of thousands of elderly and disabled citizens.
5. Read the rest of the congressional report if you want more information...

Mr. Blackwell sealed all state records until after the vote was legally certified. The Democratic party took the case to the Supreme Court and the Republican nominated court upheld the decision on a technicality. This decision is being appealed to federal court. Mr. Blackwell has been issued supeonas to release the records, but continues to stonewall in apparent contempt of court. What will the records show when they finally are released?

John Kerry won Ohio.

 

[Tgace]

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000731070

 

[modarnis]

Obviously your opinions are too strong to scrutinize the data and footnotes in all of the research you link us too. Many of the links are dead links(including the most recent one you left). Its not worth the effort spinning my wheels with you. You are unwilling to be critical of the sources you cite. Maybe in the end I will get proven wrong :asian: . At least when all of these court cases come to fruition, I will be able to easily access the published court opinions/decisions from verifiable sources that aren't websites dedicated to any particular agenda.

As to my previous connect the dots analogy, I was not refering to the discussion here as much as the leaps of faith, questionable, if not outright made up data in some of the cited studies, all painting a picture that is supposed to be a smoking gun of how the election was stolen. My good friend from Mississipi would say That Dog Don't Hunt.

 

[Tgace]

Ohio dropped the case.

 

[Makalakumu]

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000731070

The article is old and doesn't address the new information...especially after the recount. Specifically, it does not address the allegations against Mr. Blackwell's handling of his civic duty.

Here are a few tidbits that I found interesting...

"We are finding that there were some legitimate counting errors and glitches in the computer system..."

As to date, the list on this has been greatly expanded, according to the congressional report.

He cited the state's biggest election problem being too few voting machines."

Voting machines that were designated for liberal districts were found in a warehouse. In some cases voting machines in liberal districts were removed on election day.

Widespread concerns about why some voters waited up to 11 hours to vote and others were reportedly given wrong information by poll workers about where to cast ballots drew attention from the press but few papers gave some of the fraud theories much credibility.

This, again, is old information. The story unfolding around Mr. Blackwell's handling of the election is still unfolding.

When the election is certified, Bush is expected to maintain his roughly 136,000-vote margin. Then a recount, sought by Ralph Nader and the Libertarian and Green party candidates, will take place.

After these events take place, this is where the real controversy starts to heat up.

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