A rather simple question

[chrispillertkd]

Would it be bad if the kkw/wtf split? Maybe at first but the sport fighters are few. The rest would celebrate moo do. It would allow for a union with the itf and the, can't believe I'm saying it, the ata. Tkd would unite finally under one banner.

How do you see this happening as a result of a hypothetical WTF/KKW split? Just curious as I don't really see the KKW and ITF ever merging. (I'll leave it to ATA members to comment about that aspect.)

Pax,

Chris

 

[dancingalone]

I agree that no one should follow anyone blindly. But how come Korean GMs need a Korean connection?
I make no defense or comment on the WTF situation in the USA, as I am simply not informed enough. However I am perplexed by your comment, can you please explain.

Because they feel TKD is inherently a Korean martial art that promulgates Korean culture, values, and philosophy. Can we deny that TKD has been used expressively to export Korean nationalism and to cement South Korea's place in the world as a rising power?

That's not to say that we can't enjoy TKD without all these trappings. We obviously can and do, but I think it's fair to say that the older Koreans likely had a very different idea of the purpose of their national martial art than Joe Student in his studio on the corner.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

I don't really see the KKW and ITF ever merging.

Nor do I, but I can see the ITF & WTF merging or more likely for the WTF to absorb ITFers under WTF rules.
The more the ITF fractures the more than weaken a weaker hand from the start with an actual merging, ie combining of sports rules, Tuls/Poomsae.
However seperate competition categories would work with the patterns.
It appears that CISM, the military Olympics is now allowing ITFers in to fight under WTF rules AND is allowing ITF Tuls, with WTFers allowed to do them as well, plus the addition of another ITF sports competition category of self defence routine, which ITFers & WTFers can compete together as well.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Quote:Originally Posted by dancingalone
"Can we deny that TKD has been used expressively to export Korean nationalism and to cement South Korea's place in the world as a rising power?"
No we can't & not to side track the current discussion, but this is exactly another reason or example of how we have to know about Korean politics & history if we are to understand the context of the times that TKD was developed in.

Because they feel TKD is inherently a Korean martial art that promulgates Korean culture, values, and philosophy. Can we deny that TKD has been used expressively to export Korean nationalism and to cement South Korea's place in the world as a rising power?

No I agree & teach it that way.

That's not to say that we can't enjoy TKD without all these trappings. We obviously can and do, but I think it's fair to say that the older Koreans likely had a very different idea of the purpose of their national martial art than Joe Student in his studio on the corner.

No we should have all these trappings, even in sports competition, no doubt about that. But when it comes to a sport's national governing body what difference does it make about a person nationality or ethnicity? Shouldn't the USA's NGB be run by Americans & not Koreans?
Nothing wrong with Korean-American citizen leaders of 2nd, 3rd generation Koreans born in the USA being in charge or on the board.
In any event, Korean Grandmasters should in my view help guide & instructor others on the TKD ethos & other aspects of TKD.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Nor do I, but I can see the ITF & WTF merging or more likely for the WTF to absorb ITFers under WTF rules.

Since the WTF isn't anything except an international sports body that sanctions certain events and the ITF is a martial arts organization that issues rank, holds official training courses, sanctions tournaments, sets technical standards, etc. I think this is not only rather unlikely but impossible.

Even if the WTF opened their competitions to people who held ITF black belt certificates there wouldn't be an merging or "absorption" because there's nothing to merge with or do the absorbing. They are two different kinds of organizations (the ITF is closer to a combination of both the WTF and KKW) and the ITF will continue to hold its own tournaments so even in the sports side of things that won't happen.

The more the ITF fractures the more than weaken a weaker hand from the start with an actual merging, ie combining of sports rules, Tuls/Poomsae.
However seperate competition categories would work with the patterns.
It appears that CISM, the military Olympics is now allowing ITFers in to fight under WTF rules AND is allowing ITF Tuls, with WTFers allowed to do them as well, plus the addition of another ITF sports competition category of self defence routine, which ITFers & WTFers can compete together as well.

Yes, the CISM news was good to see. But it hardly qualifies as a "merger." It lets people compete in the same tournaments. There's a big difference.

Frankly, I don't really think merging the ITF and WTF/KKW is a good idea but that's just me.

Pax,

Chris

 

[dancingalone]

But when it comes to a sport's national governing body what difference does it make about a person nationality or ethnicity? Shouldn't the USA's NGB be run by Americans & not Koreans?

No. If TKD to a great extent is about espousing Korean values and culture, then there is a great deal of logic to thinking that this should be done by a Korean ultimately. This means people in key leadership positions should likewise be Koreans.

I'm not singling out a particular country on this either. In Shotokan karate, there's been a long history of the JKA (sort of like the Kukkiwon) holding back senior promotions from tenured, deserving foreign instructors. That's a huge part of the reason why there are so many Shotokan organizations today - they split off from the JKA due to perceived unfairness.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Since the WTF isn't anything except an international sports body that sanctions certain events and the ITF is a martial arts organization that issues rank, holds official training courses, sanctions tournaments, sets technical standards, etc. I think this is not only rather unlikely but impossible.
Even if the WTF opened their competitions to people who held ITF black belt certificates there wouldn't be an merging or "absorption" because there's nothing to merge with or do the absorbing. They are two different kinds of organizations (the ITF is closer to a combination of both the WTF and KKW) and the ITF will continue to hold its own tournaments so even in the sports side of things that won't happen.

Yes you are right. I was meaning more in the sports only aspect, a merging or combining or the rules vs just allowing ITFers to compete under WTF rules. Technically there is nothing to prevent that even now. Any ITFer can get a V Neck dobok, a corresponding KKW certificate & try & win the process, which will be the hard part with all those talented WTF players out there.

Yes, the CISM news was good to see. But it hardly qualifies as a "merger." It lets people compete in the same tournaments. There's a big difference.
Frankly, I don't really think merging the ITF and WTF/KKW is a good idea but that's just me.

I think I agree, but I would love to have more WTFers or Kukki TKDin exposed to our martial art & vice versa. Working with other martial artists has almost always been a pleasant experience & always has resulted in learning.
This is why I am so dismayed by the hard tones at times by martial artists on different sides of the TKD divide that should have never been divided.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

No. If TKD to a great extent is about espousing Korean values and culture, then there is a great deal of logic to thinking that this should be done by a Korean ultimately. This means people in key leadership positions should likewise be Koreans.

I'm not singling out a particular country on this either. In Shotokan karate, there's been a long history of the JKA (sort of like the Kukkiwon) holding back senior promotions from tenured, deserving foreign instructors. That's a huge part of the reason why there are so many Shotokan organizations today - they split off from the JKA due to perceived unfairness.

I see your valid points but offer this caution: if you follow through on this, then non-Koreans will never be equal to Koreans in the TKD world. Likewise, then American born subsequent generations will eventually over time also be prohibited from holding that equal status, by virtue of their Americanization process (or westernization for Koreans born in the west outside of Korea & the USA)

So how about this proposal:
If the process is fair to elect qualified leaders of a WTF NGB in the USA (or elsewhere) & it results in for whatever reason (remember by definition the process was fair) no Korean leaders, then the NGB leaders can appoint, have elected through another fair process, solicit volunteers, pay expert Korean grandmasters to serve on a committee(s) that will oversee, instruct & guide in these all important areas.
Would that work?

I am simply at my core against what can be seen as a racial quota, requirement, barrier etc. There are many people that devote a lifetime of study to an activity that may have come from a particular country or culture & become recognized leaders in that field, even if they do not come from that place or grew up in that culture. Nothing above should be construed in any way that I am charging any discrimination, as I am not. Because of Korean politics, the ITF lacked for years many Korean instructors, as the KCIA forced them out in 1 way or another. Through that, our adherence to needed Korean cultural & historical aspects was well preserved by many. Even many of the north Korean instructors were amazed by this.

 

[dancingalone]

I see your valid points but offer this caution: if you follow through on this, then non-Koreans will never be equal to Koreans in the TKD world.

I think that's precisely the point. The presence of the KKW in Seoul means the majority of the top leadership in KKW TKD will always be Korean-born.

Likewise, then American born subsequent generations will eventually over time also be prohibited from holding that equal status, by virtue of their Americanization process (or westernization for Koreans born in the west outside of Korea & the USA)

See above about Kukki TKD. Dunno about all the other groups, but doesn't General Choi's son run one of the ITFs? Likewise, even in the smaller independent schools and federations, you see children of the founders in prominent positions in the businesses their fathers founded as is natural. Perhaps in these cases, it's more about blood than cultural heritage. Certainly the ATA (American Taekwondo Association) doesn't have an overly Korean feel to it outside of the Lee family leadership.

So how about this proposal:
If the process is fair to elect qualified leaders of a WTF NGB in the USA (or elsewhere) & it results in for whatever reason (remember by definition the process was fair) no Korean leaders, then the NGB leaders can appoint, have elected through another fair process, solicit volunteers, pay expert Korean grandmasters to serve on a committee(s) that will oversee, instruct & guide in these all important areas.
Would that work?

I am simply at my core against what can be seen as a racial quota, requirement, barrier etc. There are many people that devote a lifetime of study to an activity that may have come from a particular country or culture & become recognized leaders in that field, even if they do not come from that place or grew up in that culture. Nothing above should be construed in any way that I am charging any discrimination, as I am not. Because of Korean politics, the ITF lacked for years many Korean instructors, as the KCIA forced them out in 1 way or another. Through that, our adherence to needed Korean cultural & historical aspects was well preserved by many. Even many of the north Korean instructors were amazed by this.

I simply believe that those in charge will refuse to play by any other rules than their own. Nor should they. They are furthering THEIR vision of TKD, not some worldly, egalitarian one.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

I think that's precisely the point. The presence of the KKW in Seoul means the majority of the top leadership in KKW TKD will always be Korean-born.

Yes & we have seen how corruption resulted, including "branch trimming" which was cheating for the Korean players so Korea could win the gold. This is a reason why the WTF has been trying to included more Koreans in the leadership. But this is Korea, I was talking about national TKD groups or WTF NGBs.

See above about Kukki TKD. Dunno about all the other groups, but doesn't General Choi's son run one of the ITFs? Likewise, even in the smaller independent schools and federations, you see children of the founders in prominent positions in the businesses their fathers founded as is natural. Perhaps in these cases, it's more about blood than cultural heritage. Certainly the ATA (American Taekwondo Association) doesn't have an overly Korean feel to it outside of the Lee family leadership.

Yes Gen Choi's son broke away before his father died. He will even be moving his headquarters back to Seoul, but his leadership is overwhelming non-Korean, as truth be told, they don't have many Koreans.
The ITF under Prof Chang Ung, who is also Korean, a north Korean IOC Member, compared by some to Dr Kim Un Yong, another gifted politician that was not a TKD man. While that group is located in Austria it is plagued by charges of interference by the north Korean regime. This group does have a significant Korean membership, but they are mostly north Koreans who have been said to also be KGB agents of or for their state.[/quote]

 

[puunui]

I simply believe that those in charge will refuse to play by any other rules than their own. Nor should they. They are furthering THEIR vision of TKD, not some worldly, egalitarian one.

Actually the WTF plays by the rules as set forth by the IOC and the Olympic Charter. Or at least we used to under the leadership of Dr. Un Yong KIM. It's hard to tell what we are doing now.

 

[ETinCYQX]

With any luck it'll come back, since it all goes in cycles.

Sport schools will die off, and eventually rules will change to a more traditional style, sport schools will come back, the rules will get flashier and softer, etc.

Either that or I'll be doing full contact kickboxing. I don't have much interest in light contact and live sparring is what I look for in martial arts.