A rather simple question

[puunui]

Honestly, I think you've bought into the branding. There are legions of excellent martial artists both in and outside of TKD who manage without some mothership organization. All you really need is frequent access to a good teacher. The rest is just trappings.

Obviously he wants more. Also, you might wish to consider that you also might have bought into the branding, of Okinawan Karate, which does not value unification in the same way that the pioneers of Taekwondo did. Nothing wrong with that, different arts attract different types of practitioners.

 

[puunui]

I wish there was true unity in TKD, then it would be much easier for people like me, with independent schools, to help our students and ourselves along.

Are you interested at all in learning the taeguek poomsae?

 

[searcher]

20 years? Now that my instructor passed away, I doubt I will be anywhere outside of where I am currently at. Unless I find another instructor or an organisation that will take me in and help me learn more TKD, I may not make it any further with my TKD.

 

[dancingalone]

Obviously he wants more. Also, you might wish to consider that you also might have bought into the branding, of Okinawan Karate, which does not value unification in the same way that the pioneers of Taekwondo did. Nothing wrong with that, different arts attract different types of practitioners.

The branding ain't why I practice Okinawan karate. And you can definitely join various organizations in karate if you want. They do exist. As to the advantages of such a move, I'd hope it is about access to qualified instruction. Perhaps being in an org gives you that if you don't have roots already through a current teacher.

From an improvement perspective, it ultimately comes down to one on one time with someone who knows what they are doing and can make corrections for you. I don't see the requirement for an org in there.

If bluewaveschool values a sense of connection to some unified vision of TKD, then he should obviously hook up with one of the groups out there. I've always got the impression from reading his posts that he was more about improving himself and his students - which may or may not coincide with the desire(?) to affiliate with a large org.

All this talk of organizations seems like putting the cart before the horse to me. Say you sign up sight unseen with Organization X and say I want to join, teach me. Guess what? They'll hook you up with the nearest person to you in their group who can teach you and integrate you into their ways. Why bother with that route? It's so indirect. Why not just search for a teacher you know you want to learn from and build a long-term relationship with him/her? It's not the KKW itself that is valuable. It's the people who choose to band together inside the KKW that is.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

This is in contrast to General Choi's vision of Taekwon-Do, which basically is that it is something that he created, including but not limited to the name, and that he should be given credit for his vast and incomparable contributions, and that everyone should acknowledge his efforts, especially the Kukki Taekwondo world. Karatemom understands General Choi's vision, and she toils endlessly to see that vision through.

This is so far from the truth that it does show an underlying lack of knowledge about Chang Hon or Gen Choi's original TKD. It smacks of political motivation from long held animosity towards a man that many in south Korea grew to have such strong feelings against, even hatred & despising him. While I have no problem with people feeling that which they wish to feel, as it is their feelings. But regardless of how much someone likes, admires, dislikes or can't stand a person, feelings about a person can not take away from what they accomplished. One may not appreciate these contributions, but they can not deny that they happened.
As to Gen choi's vision, please allow me to offer some of it. He worked tirelessly to spread his TKD around the world, regardless of political ideology, national boundaries, race, religion or creed. He created his system of TKD to help build physically strong students with high moral character so they may be better able to stand on the side of justice. He used his TKD to further cement & insure that Korea's long & proud history would never ever be eradicated again by any invading or occupying forces, by spreading its history & culture through his TKD, including his Tuls named after great Korean patriots & significant events throughout Korea's history. Gen Choi assembled & codified principles that he incorporated into his teachings to build moral character & devised an oath the ended with students promising to "build a more peaceful world". This was the ultimate goal of his TKD.

Gen Choi took TKD out of Korea, introducing it throughout south east Asia in 1959, then 1962, eventually leading a goodwill tour around the world in 1965. He went on to introduce TKD to communist & socialist nations in the 1970s, only to be labeled a communist sympathizer by his homeland, which was strange as the south Korean govt sponsored these same countries to come to the WTF world championships as they soon figured out that they needed them to gain Olympic support. Of course once he went to north Korea, he was labeled an outright communist & traitor by that same govt that of course later tried to get the WTF into north Korea. TKD was #8 of 10 points of discussion between the 2 Koreas when they met in 2000 for the 1st ever summit between their 2 leaders. Gen Choi is also the only martial artist that I am aware of to be nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize & Canada's highest civilian award.

Now as to how Gen Choi spoke about the history of TKD, well I for one, even though I admire the man, do not agree with his version. He did not create TKD by himself. He had so much help in creating his system of martial art that he called TKD with so many talented & experienced martial artists adding so much & working so hard to spread it world-wide. I also do not agree with his outright dismissal of Kukki TKD as karate, just because they did not do his TKD. I object that totally. I am also very well aware of how he used his TKD & the ITF as a political tool to advance his agenda. While I agree that some of his agenda was worthy & even noble, it was very problematic. His political stances caused much harm to his TKD, its growth & his most loyal followers. It became the root of much of the dislike that many had for him.

I am very much able & willing to acknowledge the contributions of many, regardless of their affiliation, as credit is deserving by many who have been written out of history for a myriad of reasons. All of Korea owes a debt to many of its nationals would did tremendous work in introducing not only TKD to the world, but Korea as well. They will eventually be recognized as heroes, real goodwill ambassadors! Of course Gen Choi will be among them & a prominent one indeed. I hold no ill will towards no man, especially just because someone say or many said bad things about him & ignore his contributions.

I do toil & will continue to work to see that proper credit is bestowed upon the many who deserve it. I hope that the time is short for that to happen, as the time for some of these wonderful Koreans in this life will of course end at some point. I think it is better to eulogize someone when they can actually hear the words & applause themselves. What pray tell is wrong with that?

 

[KarateMomUSA]

It means for example, to stop creating or encouraging dichotomies (WTF vs. ITF, sport vs. non-sport, etc.). It is understanding and living the concept that there is only one Taekwondo, and we are all a part of it, even though we may focus on different aspects.

This is a wonderful & most tolerant point of view & one that I agree wholeheartedly with.
Doesn't everyone?

 

[bluewaveschool]

If bluewaveschool values a sense of connection to some unified vision of TKD, then he should obviously hook up with one of the groups out there. I've always got the impression from reading his posts that he was more about improving himself and his students - which may or may not coincide with the desire(?) to affiliate with a large org.

Exactly. I want to improve myself and my students, but ADVANCING my students, which is what one of them asked me about, is not something I can do without advancing myself. With no instructor... the local guy I've worked out with a few times, great martial artist, but he's like me, he's now indy (he's in granfire's boat), so I'm still with 'plantation dollars' as someone put it to move beyond the 3rd I could get there. He does some of the Chang Hon patterns with other patterns mixed in. Thats the ONLY reason I'm looking at any groups, to be able to keep advancing to advance my students. If it was just a matter of wanting to work out with someone to see my flaws and help improve, there are a few people around that I might talk to, but they are ATA or ex-ATA that do the current ATA forms.

Am I interested in the KKW forms? Let's just say that the last time I suggested going with a group that didn't do Chang Hon patterns, the reaction wasn't positive. At all. But neither was the reaction to adopt the sine wave and join ITF. Something has to give, some where. It's getting to the point it's making my head hurt thinking about it.

 

[dancingalone]

Am I interested in the KKW forms? Let's just say that the last time I suggested going with a group that didn't do Chang Hon patterns, the reaction wasn't positive. At all. But neither was the reaction to adopt the sine wave and join ITF. Something has to give, some where. It's getting to the point it's making my head hurt thinking about it.

Did you contact Terry to get the scoop on the AAU like he suggested? That sounded like the most cost effective option out there while letting you keep your current form set.

 

[bluewaveschool]

I did, I believe he needed to gather up some info and such for me.

 

[puunui]

Am I interested in the KKW forms? Let's just say that the last time I suggested going with a group that didn't do Chang Hon patterns, the reaction wasn't positive. At all. But neither was the reaction to adopt the sine wave and join ITF. Something has to give, some where. It's getting to the point it's making my head hurt thinking about it.

So your own personal martial arts journey is determined by majority vote?

 

[andyjeffries]

With all the threads about what is TKD and who was truely TKD and the General, I have a simple but complex question for all of us. Where do you see your brand of TKD in twenty years? I mean the founding father had there vision, so where is yours?

I see there being a bigger split between the Sport and Inclusive Kukkiwon style of Taekwondo. With the building of Taekwondo Park and the founding of the new World Taekwondo Academy there, the introduction of the WTF Athlete Licence and the Talent 2012 programme for British Taekwondo - I think the WTF will split further from the Kukkiwon.

At the moment the application form for the WTF Athlete Licence requires Kukkiwon dan number, but for how long...? If they drop that then you can truly get to the point where Olympic-style Taekwondo can be a standalone discipline. They could introduce a WTF Coach Course/Licence that trains people in how to teach sport sparring and then drop the requirement for Kukkiwon completely (the Athlete Licence needs to be signed by a WTF Licensed Coach).

This will convert WTF Taekwondo in to a pure sport, and leave the Kukkiwon as the all-encompassing martial art (including WTF Sport Taekwondo as one of it's components).

I don't think this will affect most existing dojang as they will continue to practice all aspects, but there may be new clubs springing up to just do sport (10 years ago I would have thought about starting one myself).

I absolutely feel now that my loyalty/future lies in Kukki-Taekwondo, but that's where I see the future of Taekwondo.

As a side thought, I wonder whether the Kukkiwon curriculum/teaching will expand to include groundwork. I know quite a few people branch out in to other disciplines to gain grappling experience (myself included with BJJ) but I'd like to see this brought in to Taekwondo.

 

[Markku P]

What I think?

-WTF will be stronger if Taekwondo stay in Olympics.
-WTF will start promote "traditional Taekwondo" aka Poomase much more.
-Kukkiwon will lose it's international status and will be much smaller and less recognized organization.
-WTF will issue their own black belt certificates.
-ITF will split more smaller organizations.
-More Independent Taekwondo organizations.

 

[StudentCarl]

I'm a student at the bottom, looking up. When I started Taekwondo 30 years ago, I studied Chang Hon forms in an ATA school. Now I study Taegeuks and spar Olympic style in a KKW aligned school. Collaborating and cross-training makes a lot of sense to me. Once I'm at first dan I want to pursue friendships with the other schools in the area as I'd like to learn their forms and train together at least at a black belt level. Is anyone meeting and sharing with the neighbors now? Is this such an odd idea?

Carl

 

[SahBumNimRush]

I hope that in 20 years from now, "my" Taekwondo is the same as it is now; nothing taken out. If I have any say over it, I would hope that its knowledge base would have grown considerably in the area of boonhae/bunkai, since this is something that our KJN never focused on. Since we practice the Shotokan form sets, it's not a difficult leap.

I don't really pay much attention to what is going on in the larger organizations, but I am sure they will continue to rise and fall, fragment and disjoint, re-organize and be as political as ever.

My hopes is that "my" Taekwondo perseveres the test of time, and continues with a curriculum that has its main focus on building a well rounded martial artist, without too much focus in any one particular niche. The only thing we do not focus on currently is sport, although we do attend some of the older point style tournaments.

Inevitably, people focus more on what they like, and less on what they do not. This is where all us independents fragment so easily, because there is no unifying curriculum. My goal is not to let that happen in future generations. I hope that I may continue to train with other martial artists, so that I may continue to more deeply understand my own art and possibly add to it.

 

[bluewaveschool]

So your own personal martial arts journey is determined by majority vote?

Anything I do at this point is for the good of the class as a whole. Infighting among the instructors isn't good for anyone. If I had never been asked to move forward, I honestly don't know that I would have pursued it on my own. I'm not interested in owning my own school as a business, which is the only reason I'd really want to be a higher dan rank. I've been 2nd for 10 years and been just fine with that.

 

[dancingalone]

Where do you see your brand of TKD in twenty years? I mean the founding father had there vision, so where is yours?

I hope to see my students teaching themselves in twenty years. I am not overly concerned about them teaching the exact version of TKD that I am teaching them as it is a moving target and the syllabus is malleable. I would be very pleased if in giving their own lessons, they mention me and how much fun they had practicing with me.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

What I think?

-WTF will be stronger if Taekwondo stay in Olympics.
-WTF will start promote "traditional Taekwondo" aka Poomase much more.
-Kukkiwon will lose it's international status and will be much smaller and less recognized organization.
-WTF will issue their own black belt certificates.
-ITF will split more smaller organizations.
-More Independent Taekwondo organizations.

Agreed

 

[KarateMomUSA]

I see there being a bigger split between the Sport and Inclusive Kukkiwon style of Taekwondo. With the building of Taekwondo Park and the founding of the new World Taekwondo Academy there, the introduction of the WTF Athlete Licence and the Talent 2012 programme for British Taekwondo - I think the WTF will split further from the Kukkiwon.
At the moment the application form for the WTF Athlete Licence requires Kukkiwon dan number, but for how long...? If they drop that then you can truly get to the point where Olympic-style Taekwondo can be a standalone discipline. They could introduce a WTF Coach Course/Licence that trains people in how to teach sport sparring and then drop the requirement for Kukkiwon completely (the Athlete Licence needs to be signed by a WTF Licensed Coach).
This will convert WTF Taekwondo in to a pure sport, and leave the Kukkiwon as the all-encompassing martial art (including WTF Sport Taekwondo as one of it's components).

I agree with you but will add that I think the WTF will expand by allowing each dojang to do their own thing, making the KKW even less important. This may open the door wider to all the independents etc. I think Dr Choue will leave the martial art side to the martial artists. The sports rules will be all that one needs to grasp & follow. Everything else is free to be open to interpretation & individual focus.

 

[msmitht]

What happened before will happen again. When the kkw/wtf was formed many gms in america united and started their own org (sa gae moo do). My gm was a part of this group which included sang lee and about 300 other gms. Eventually the wtf/kkw got so big that joining became the thing to do.
Now we have an org, the usat, which is run by a man who has never practiced tkd! There are no gms on the board, which is both good and bad. You should NEVER blindly follow anyone but there needs to be a korean connection or the kgm's will never join (like now).
Would it be bad if the kkw/wtf split? Maybe at first but the sport fighters are few. The rest would celebrate moo do. It would allow for a union with the itf and the, can't believe I'm saying it, the ata. Tkd would unite finally under one banner. The sport competitors would get even cockier, but who cares. For every olympian there are 3 million who just want to train.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

You should NEVER blindly follow anyone but there needs to be a korean connection or the kgm's will never join (like now).

I agree that no one should follow anyone blindly. But how come Korean GMs need a Korean connection?
I make no defense or comment on the WTF situation in the USA, as I am simply not informed enough. However I am perplexed by your comment, can you please explain.