A Brief History of Taekwon-Do by General Choi

[KarateMomUSA]

And by the way, in 1955 General Choi was practicing Tang Soo Do. He wasn't practicing any martial arts because he was too busy being a general in the ROK Army. And even if he was practicing while in the ROK Army, it wasn't Tang Soo Do. Tang Soo Do is a unique name that was created by GM LEE Won Kuk.

Yes Tang Soo Do was a named used by GM Lee, but it was not limited to use only by him. There were several terms to describe the karate based martial art that they were doing, without using the troublesome karate name.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

I have not yet seen any revisions, updates or added info on the KTA, KKW or WTF websites with respect to their history of TKD which still reflects that standard template with the connection to 2,000 years ago. But maybe it will be forthcoming & will name GM Lee Won Kuk & the other kwan founders for their great contributions to their motherland, which in turn spurred the effort to create TKD & share it with the world.
They certainly do deserve credit & thanks!

 

[chrispillertkd]

Quote:Originally Posted by KarateMomUSA
Yes I understand. But we must realize that complex issues have no real easy answers.
Yes it is a simple question, not a complex question at all. The answer is simple, they were basically doing the karate he learned abroad, plus his exposure to Chinese martial arts, along with his particular take, focus, methods of instructing etc.

How do we know this is what he was teaching? Similarly, what evidence is there that this is what he was teaching if we are simply to believe he was teaching this (which is different from knowing)?

And, assuming for the sake of argument that this is what he was teaching at the time what, exactly, does it entail in terms of technical and philosophical differences from the Shotokan karate of his day? If someone knows that what GM Lee was teaching was different then they would certainly know what those differences were, a fortiori.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Just to further clarify my response to your above post, Gen Choi was doing Tang Su Do, essentially Korean karate, as he trained in karate while in Japan.

Never heard that either he or the CDK had done tangsudo, but again, you end up in the same place:

So he was not doing CDK, he was doing Tang Su Do, which the CDK was basically doing as well.

Which is not that he was "doing CDK," but that he was doing the same thing that the CDK was doing.

While we know from common sense that the 7 Koreans learned karate & then participated in the early kwans, doing basically karate, with the natural differences from 1 instructor to the next, with the different emphasis & focus that different kwans had.

One knows not to grab the kettle around the middle when it is boiling because one's hand will be burned from common sense. One does not know historical events from common sense, though yes, karate was at the core of what most of them were doing.

It appears that the name TKD was offered for nationalist purposes to move from the Japanese linked or based names being used. Since they were all doing basically the same thing, I guess it can be viewed as being offered as an umbrella term.
The big point is that it was not accepted by all the kwans in 1955, as only 2 were represented. In 1957 & 59, more attempts were made to unfiy, but they did not hold.
Clearly in 1961, the unification effort decided on the new compromise name of Tae Su Do. However some still clung to the name of TKD & used it continuously from 1955 forward.

None of which makes ITF taekwondo the original taekwondo. Please look up the definition for the word 'original' and use it properly. If you wish to create your own coloquial meanings for words, that is fine when you are with your friends. But on a public forum, please use the accepted definitions of words if you have any interest in meaningful communication with others.

Daniel

 

[KarateMomUSA]

How do we know this is what he was teaching? Similarly, what evidence is there that this is what he was teaching if we are simply to believe he was teaching this (which is different from knowing)?

And, assuming for the sake of argument that this is what he was teaching at the time what, exactly, does it entail in terms of technical and philosophical differences from the Shotokan karate of his day? If someone knows that what GM Lee was teaching was different then they would certainly know what those differences were, a fortiori.

Pax,

Chris

I don't think you will find many sources that address this, as they simply do not want to highlight the karate connection. Some independents like Grandmaster Kim Soo do speak about this in general terms, as well as GM Lee Chong Woo who used the general term karate.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

None of which makes ITF taekwondo the original taekwondo. Please look up the definition for the word 'original' and use it properly. If you wish to create your own coloquial meanings for words, that is fine when you are with your friends. But on a public forum, please use the accepted definitions of words if you have any interest in meaningful communication with others.

Yes I can certainly do this, as stated in the other thread. I appreciate your feedback as you are reading the posts. Thank you.

Never heard that either he or the CDK had done tangsudo, but again, you end up in the same place:
Which is not that he was "doing CDK," but that he was doing the same thing that the CDK was doing.
One knows not to grab the kettle around the middle when it is boiling because one's hand will be burned from common sense. One does not know historical events from common sense, though yes, karate was at the core of what most of them were doing.

There were various ways to call the karate something other than karate, as that was a Japanese term. Grandmaster Lee Won Kuk is credited with coming up with the Tang Su Do term, way of China/Tang hand. Kong Soo Do, a Korean way of saying karate or empty hand way, or Kwon Bup, fist method, all implying in some fashion fighting with hands were used in those early days. Grandmaster Hwang Kee tried using Hwa Soo Do, but apparently dropped that in favor of the more popular Tang Su Do label. We know that he continued to use that name, even though he was not the 1st to use it.
Yes karate was basically what they were doing. Gen Choi, GM Hwang Kee, GM Kim Soo, GM Lee Chong Woo & Dr Yoon all admitted that. Some like Dr Yoon stayed loyal or true to his karate training. While others used not only different terms, like TK-D (Choi) & Su Bak Do (Hwang Kee), but created new systems that they called their own.
The 2nd generation leaders united 1st under Tae Soo Do in 1961, but only applied the term TKD to what they were doing in 1965. By then TK-D & Su Bak Do were already being developed prior to that time, under those pre-applied labels.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Karate is actually an Okinawan term. There was a change in kanji, from 唐手 (China hand) to 空手 (empty hand) which was chosen specifically because it sounded exactly the same, and the change was for purely nationalistic reasons in Funakoshi's efforts to promote karate in Japan, though that would not be apparent in English.

Tang-su is the Korean reading of the original kanji, 唐手 with 道 added.

Daniel

 

[puunui]

Yes Tang Soo Do was a named used by GM Lee, but it was not limited to use only by him.

Yes, his students who opened their own dojang used the term too. Pretty much the only people who did use the term Tang Soo Do can trace their roots to the Chung Do Kwan.

There were several terms to describe the karate based martial art that they were doing, without using the troublesome karate name.

What does this statement have to do with the topic at hand, which is GM LEE Won Kuk created the term Tang Soo Do?

 

[puunui]

I have not yet seen any revisions, updates or added info on the KTA, KKW or WTF websites with respect to their history of TKD which still reflects that standard template with the connection to 2,000 years ago.

I guess that shows you how much juice you have with the KTA, Kukkiwon and WTF. Tell me Mr. Vitale, when you met GM Uhm at the Kukkiwon and took your picture with him in his office, did you raise this topic and tell him he needs to give credit to General Choi? If so, what was his response?

 

[jks9199]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

Let's stop sniping, OK? This thread has been a remarkably civil discussion of these issues for the most part. Don't ruin it 20+ pages in.

 

[miguksaram]

Ladies and Gentlemen,

Let's stop sniping, OK? This thread has been a remarkably civil discussion of these issues for the most part. Don't ruin it 20+ pages in.

I agree that this has been remarkably civil especially in the TKD areana. I am not sure if your general statement was brought on by Glenn's last question, but I think the question Glenn raises is a valid question. Especailly when you consider many people have asked him about conversations that he has had with pioneers and Dr. Kim.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Quote: Originally Posted by dancingalone
So, merely being the largest aggregate of kwans makes the KKW the most legitimate? I do not believe that.

Actually the Kukkiwon was created and unification was achieved with ALL kwans, not the largest aggregate.

While the unification was indeed a great accomplishment, it was not complete. It did include all the kwans, but not all kwan members & not all kwan founders & not a current kwanjangnim.
(This was moved to limit the threads & nothing stated above should be mis-construed as a dig against the KKW, as they are "THE" Taekwondo group)

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Karate is actually an Okinawan term. There was a change in kanji, from 唐手 (China hand) to 空手 (empty hand) which was chosen specifically because it sounded exactly the same, and the change was for purely nationalistic reasons in Funakoshi's efforts to promote karate in Japan, though that would not be apparent in English.

Tang-su is the Korean reading of the original kanji, 唐手 with 道 added.

Daniel

Yes good points, thank you, it does seem that the national pride thing is important.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Yes, his students who opened their own dojang used the term too. Pretty much the only people who did use the term Tang Soo Do can trace their roots to the Chung Do Kwan.
What does this statement have to do with the topic at hand, which is GM LEE Won Kuk created the term Tang Soo Do?

I think that there is some confusion among the term Tang Soo Do & Kong Soo Do as umbrella terms that were used to avoid the karate name. While GM Lee came up with the term, GM Hwang Kee continued with its use, making his own martial art & the Tang Soo Do name played prominently in that process.

 

[tkd1964]

How do we know this is what he was teaching? Similarly, what evidence is there that this is what he was teaching if we are simply to believe he was teaching this (which is different from knowing)?

And, assuming for the sake of argument that this is what he was teaching at the time what, exactly, does it entail in terms of technical and philosophical differences from the Shotokan karate of his day? If someone knows that what GM Lee was teaching was different then they would certainly know what those differences were, a fortiori.

Pax,

Chris

To see what GM Lee was teaching at the time, all one has to do is to review one of GM Son's books on Korean Karate. GM Son's teachings did not follow the changes which Gen. Choi made to Taekwon-Do or what changes the KTA made to Tae Kwon Do. He followed the teachings of GM Lee.

 

[puunui]

While the unification was indeed a great accomplishment, it was not complete. It did include all the kwans, but not all kwan members & not all kwan founders & not a current kwanjangnim.

Again, so what? Benedict Arnold probably disagreed with the signing of the Declaration of Independence, but that doesn't make the Declaration of Independence any less valid. And I don't know who signed the Declaration on behalf of Pennsylvania or any of the colonies, but I am sure not all of the "founders" of the colonies signed either.

 

[chrispillertkd]

To see what GM Lee was teaching at the time, all one has to do is to review one of GM Son's books on Korean Karate. GM Son's teachings did not follow the changes which Gen. Choi made to Taekwon-Do or what changes the KTA made to Tae Kwon Do. He followed the teachings of GM Lee.

How do you know GM Son didn't change anything?

Pax,

Chris

 

[puunui]

How do you know GM Son didn't change anything?

I'm sure GM Son did change things. GM Son's front stance for example, is much wider than what GM Lee advocated.

 

[terryl965]

How do you know GM Son didn't change anything?

Pax,

Chris

Nobody really knows anything except what they have been told, I guess it is all up to one's interpitation of things.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Nobody really knows anything except what they have been told, I guess it is all up to one's interpitation of things.

Well, maybe. But if everyone's relying on what they've been told then technically no one knows anything. They're believing, and that's different. It's a matter of faith. That in itself isn't bad (not all faith is blind, you can have good reasons to believe someone even though what you believe doesn't rise to the level of knowledge).

Pax,

Chris