A breakdown of the Frank Dux claims

[REDMAGE]

Think about what a black belt is suppose to be and what they represent to their students, the MA community, and the people looking in from the outside.

Frank Dux and his exceedingly large laundry list of lies make all practitioners look like jokes. Especially when people in the community rise up to defend him.

Pinkman stated facts, whether you'd like to believe it or not. Much of the topics visited in this thread were already touched on in his videos, so it's clear that some people didn't even bother watching them before making their remarks. Pinkman did his research.

 

[pdg]

Think about what a black belt is suppose to be and what they represent to their students, the MA community, and the people looking in from the outside.

And what pray tell is a black belt exactly "supposed" to be?

The definition varies wildly from art to art and from person to person - everything from "advanced beginner" through to "pinnacle of humanity"...

On a personal level, any sort of charlatan really has no bearing or influence on me, but people who expect a black belt to imbue superhuman morals and honesty are (imo) more deluded than those who try to jump mountains

 

[REDMAGE]

And what pray tell is a black belt exactly "supposed" to be?

The definition varies wildly from art to art and from person to person - everything from "advanced beginner" through to "pinnacle of humanity"...

On a personal level, any sort of charlatan really has no bearing or influence on me, but people who expect a black belt to imbue superhuman morals and honesty are (imo) more deluded than those who try to jump mountains

At the very least; a role model. No need for superhuman anything.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

At the very least; a role model. No need for superhuman anything.

Im not looking to any 9 year olds as role models

 

[Flying Crane]

If I am a role model in any way (and that is a huge IF), it has nothing to do with me being a black belt.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Why are people saying that the Pinkmans videos aren't legit? That's insanity. His intro music is much more official sounding too. Seriously though- why would anyone dispute such obvious facts. The narrative of Frank Dux is fairly simple. He's a non-rate Valor thief (the guy was not covert in any capacity when he was active duty, it doesn't work that way. But there's nothing shaky with the logic in any video that calls out the BS of martial arts frauds like Dux and Kim, and there's nothing feeble about the points held against either man because both of those guys created this problem for themselves. Maybe don't lie so much? Either way- defending a piece of trash like Dux is a huge indictment about the person doing the defending because they're knowingly defending a lie by bending the truth themselves. It's that or it's delusion. The OP has it right- the community should police itself against frauds. Former military does, and so do boxers and other people who participate in combat sports.

The reason for outing these frauds isn't because it's fun or funny- outing frauds is necessary because these people are teaching dubious techniques that probably won't hold up in a real life situation and on top of that, when they buy their way to black belt, these frauds will have the students thinking that they are more capable than they really are.


These frauds who teach are dangerous. One day, someone is going to be LAARPing on the wrong property and they're gonna get shot up, even if they've trained in bullet dodging.


Sure, the byproduct can yield some laughs but lets not forget that the reason people like Dux and Kim are put out there is so it makes it harder for them to rip off people who are easily swayed by suggestion.

Just a heads-up. You may have missed it in the forum rules, but fraud-busting isn't allowed in this site. Just trying to make sure you don't accidentally run afoul of the moderators.

 

[pdg]

At the very least; a role model. No need for superhuman anything.

But why should having a black belt automatically mean you should be compelled to be any sort of role model?

To be an instructor, maybe - but even that's debatable...

Not all black belts instruct, it's not a requirement in a lot of arts. You mostly have to have a BB to instruct (and be authorised to do so by the relevant governing body), but you don't have to instruct to gain a BB.

 

[REDMAGE]

Im not looking to any 9 year olds as role models

But why should having a black belt automatically mean you should be compelled to be any sort of role model?

To be an instructor, maybe - but even that's debatable...

Not all black belts instruct, it's not a requirement in a lot of arts. You mostly have to have a BB to instruct (and be authorised to do so by the relevant governing body), but you don't have to instruct to gain a BB.

If I am a role model in any way (and that is a huge IF), it has nothing to do with me being a black belt.

Being a BB makes you a representative of your art. How do you want it to be seen as?

Anyways, I'm uninterested in continuing this conversation. It's saddening to see the lack of awareness, as well as spiritual and character growth from high level martial artists. Martial arts are slowly starting to die as McDojos are on the rise. We can nip the problem in the butt right here, but everyone's interests are too heavily invested elsewhere.

Come join the rest of us in the 21st century fellas.

 

[JR 137]

Think about what a black belt is suppose to be and what they represent to their students, the MA community, and the people looking in from the outside.

Frank Dux and his exceedingly large laundry list of lies make all practitioners look like jokes. Especially when people in the community rise up to defend him.

Pinkman stated facts, whether you'd like to believe it or not. Much of the topics visited in this thread were already touched on in his videos, so it's clear that some people didn't even bother watching them before making their remarks. Pinkman did his research.

Dux and/or anyone else looking like a joke has zero bearing on my MA training. If it makes you look like a joke, you should probably reevaluate why you’re training at all.

He’s made outrageous claims and has done questionable demos. He’s not the first, and nor will he be the last. Even the highest respected MAist have done some shady demo stuff. Ever hear of Mas Oyama? No one (in their right mind) doubts his fighting and teaching skills. Easily one of the most influential MAists of all time. Ever see his chopping off bull horns with his bare hands? Pretty suspect, and that has nothing to do with animal rights.

Ever hear of Willie Williams? He fought a bear in a Kyokushin propaganda film. Very shady, and again, nothing to do with animal rights.

There are tons of stories and demos by very well respected MAists that have been absolutely preposterous. What’s important is what’s going on in the dojo, not outside the dojo. That was the point of my previous post you disagreed with.

 

[pdg]

So what is it about martial arts over anything else that is supposed to grow spirituality? I certainly didn't sign up to a religion when I started learning how to kick someone in the head.

Let's face it, the whole premise of ma is learning how to overcome another person, usually violently - whether it's to defend yourself or not is somewhat by the by.

Having a BB doesn't make you any more a representative of the art than having a yellow belt really - it just means you've put more time and effort in.

I honestly don't think there's more or less burden on a "high level martial artist" to be anything more or less than any other person. The only burden is placed by the governing body, if there is one. If someone creates their own art (or offshoot of another) then what place is it of mine to judge their behaviour?

I spent years learning about computers, does that mean I am now obliged to be something special spiritually so I don't bring the IT industry into disrepute? What about high level golfers, or rowers, or mountain climbers, or carpenters?

Now, I can choose to be a person I'd like to be, and I pretty much choose to try to be someone I like - but that's not dependent upon doing or not doing any martial art.

We can nip the problem in the butt

By the way, the word is bud... Nipping a butt isn't something I'd usually do in public

 

[Flying Crane]

Being a BB makes you a representative of your art. How do you want it to be seen as?

Anyways, I'm uninterested in continuing this conversation. It's saddening to see the lack of awareness, as well as spiritual and character growth from high level martial artists. Martial arts are slowly starting to die as McDojos are on the rise. We can nip the problem in the butt right here, but everyone's interests are too heavily invested elsewhere.

Come join the rest of us in the 21st century fellas.

I disagree.

 

[JR 137]

So what is it about martial arts over anything else that is supposed to grow spirituality? I certainly didn't sign up to a religion when I started learning how to kick someone in the head.

Let's face it, the whole premise of ma is learning how to overcome another person, usually violently - whether it's to defend yourself or not is somewhat by the by.

Having a BB doesn't make you any more a representative of the art than having a yellow belt really - it just means you've put more time and effort in.

I honestly don't think there's more or less burden on a "high level martial artist" to be anything more or less than any other person. The only burden is placed by the governing body, if there is one. If someone creates their own art (or offshoot of another) then what place is it of mine to judge their behaviour?

I spent years learning about computers, does that mean I am now obliged to be something special spiritually so I don't bring the IT industry into disrepute? What about high level golfers, or rowers, or mountain climbers, or carpenters?

Now, I can choose to be a person I'd like to be, and I pretty much choose to try to be someone I like - but that's not dependent upon doing or not doing any martial art.



By the way, the word is bud... Nipping a butt isn't something I'd usually do in public

People take the whole “do” concept too far sometimes. That aspect was sold to the Japanese government by Kano and Funakoshi so their MA could be taught in the public school system. And they succeeded.

Yes, MA have pretty much always had spiritual aspects; Japanese, European, et al. But those guys were out facing death and killing on a regular basis, so spirituality and religion having a heavy presence isn’t mind boggling.

When MA went to the general public, I doubt they really needed anything beyond don’t beat people up unless you absolutely have to, don’t act like a douche bag and intimidate people, stuff like that. No need to find Jesus, Allah, Ganesh, nor anyone else like that in a dojo IMO.

Just train hard and don’t go around trying to prove your alleged skills on people who you aren’t supposed to, and don’t talk sh!t. Do that, and you’re fulfilling any “do” that may have been packaged as mystical IMO.

 

[pdg]

Just train hard and don’t go around trying to prove your alleged skills on people who you aren’t supposed to, and don’t talk sh!t. Do that, and you’re fulfilling any “do” that may have been packaged as mystical IMO.

In other words, be a reasonable human being (plus train hard )

 

[JR 137]

In other words, be a reasonable human being (plus train hard )

Couldn’t have said it better myself. Then again, there’s no shortage of people who just can’t act like reasonable human beings, so maybe this whole seemingly overly elaborate “do” stuff actually does have a place.

 

[pdg]

Couldn’t have said it better myself. Then again, there’s no shortage of people who just can’t act like reasonable human beings, so maybe this whole seemingly overly elaborate “do” stuff actually does have a place.

But would it really change a person?

I don't think it would.

If someone is already reasonable, it may very well give a little boost here and there, but I can't see "do" turning a complete **** into a saint - it'll just teach a complete **** how to hit stuff.

And before anyone says that complete **** might get kicked out, they'll just find someone who won't kick them out - plenty of those around too.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Being a BB makes you a representative of your art. How do you want it to be seen as?

Anyways, I'm uninterested in continuing this conversation. It's saddening to see the lack of awareness, as well as spiritual and character growth from high level martial artists. Martial arts are slowly starting to die as McDojos are on the rise. We can nip the problem in the butt right here, but everyone's interests are too heavily invested elsewhere.

Come join the rest of us in the 21st century fellas.

i don't think it's a truism that BBs are or should be considered representatives of their art. That rank can mean very different thing from art to.art.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I disagree.

If agree with you disageeing, am I supposed to click Agree, or Disagree??

 

[JR 137]

But would it really change a person?

I don't think it would.

If someone is already reasonable, it may very well give a little boost here and there, but I can't see "do" turning a complete **** into a saint - it'll just teach a complete **** how to hit stuff.

And before anyone says that complete **** might get kicked out, they'll just find someone who won't kick them out - plenty of those around too.

Would it change a person? Perhaps if the person wants to change, I guess. I’d say no far more often than yes, but I guess it can and has somewhere.

I can tell you I changed a bit through karate. Nothing to do with mystical “do” nonsense though. I wasn’t the best fighter before karate, but I could hold my own. Even people that could obviously beat me up tended not to mess with me because they knew they couldn’t just smack me around and have me run off crying.

I got into a bit more than my share of fights, and looking back it was most likely because I thought I had something to prove to myself. Karate training made me realize I really didn’t have anything to prove. A got into a fight or two after I’d been there a while. One time my sensei at the time saw a busted blood vessel in my eye and knew it wasn’t something good. So I told him what happened - my ex’s boyfriend was walking out of the bar and running his mouth yelling “I’m going to kick JR’s a$$ next time I see him.” He didn’t realize I was about 20 feet behind him. So I said “turn around, now’s your chance to be tough in front of your girlfriend.” He ran into his lacrosse buddies’ house, I chased him in and beat him up in front of his friends. Luckily I was pretty good friends with the ones who were there, and the 5 of them pulled me off of him and told me to leave otherwise they’d return the favor.

My sensei at the time just shook his head in genuine disappointment. I’ll never forget what he asked me...

Did you think he could kick your a$$?
- No
Do you care if your ex thinks he could’ve
- No. She even told him to leave before I kicked his a$$
Did it really matter if he could or couldn’t?
- No
Did kicking his a$$ make you feel better?
- No
So what did you really prove?
- When you put like that, not a damn thing.
Good thing those other guys were so nice to you.

That wasn’t “do.” That was just a guy getting me to take an honest look at myself. Other than a few times I genuinely had to defend myself and my idiot brother, I haven’t fought since.

 

[_Simon_]

Would it change a person? Perhaps if the person wants to change, I guess. I’d say no far more often than yes, but I guess it can and has somewhere.

I can tell you I changed a bit through karate. Nothing to do with mystical “do” nonsense though. I wasn’t the best fighter before karate, but I could hold my own. Even people that could obviously beat me up tended not to mess with me because they knew they couldn’t just smack me around and have me run off crying.

I got into a bit more than my share of fights, and looking back it was most likely because I thought I had something to prove to myself. Karate training made me realize I really didn’t have anything to prove. A got into a fight or two after I’d been there a while. One time my sensei at the time saw a busted blood vessel in my eye and knew it wasn’t something good. So I told him what happened - my ex’s boyfriend was walking out of the bar and running his mouth yelling “I’m going to kick JR’s a$$ next time I see him.” He didn’t realize I was about 20 feet behind him. So I said “turn around, now’s your chance to be tough in front of your girlfriend.” He ran into his lacrosse buddies’ house, I chased him in and beat him up in front of his friends. Luckily I was pretty good friends with the ones who were there, and the 5 of them pulled me off of him and told me to leave otherwise they’d return the favor.

My sensei at the time just shook his head in genuine disappointment. I’ll never forget what he asked me...

Did you think he could kick your a$$?
- No
Do you care if your ex thinks he could’ve
- No. She even told him to leave before I kicked his a$$
Did it really matter if he could or couldn’t?
- No
Did kicking his a$$ make you feel better?
- No
So what did you really prove?
- When you put like that, not a damn thing.
Good thing those other guys were so nice to you.

That wasn’t “do.” That was just a guy getting me to take an honest look at myself. Other than a few times I genuinely had to defend myself and my idiot brother, I haven’t fought since.

I actually would say that is the "do" aspect

 

[JR 137]

I actually would say that is the "do" aspect

Yeah, but nothing mystical. No “ancient Chinese secret” involved. No Miyagi-isms. And a non-MAist who’s never stepped foot in a dojo could’ve said the same thing. That’s being a normal human being, not a follower of “the way of the warrior” or any other stereotypical stuff.

Truth be told, had he started spouting off Funakoshi quotes or the like, it would’ve probably gone in one ear and out the other.