A breakdown of the Frank Dux claims

[Charlemagne]

While the guy doing the vids is a bit odd, it's good that someone is willing to do this sort of thing. There is more than enough hogwash in the martial arts community, and it's way past time that we started policing ourselves.

The Kumite

Background

Military Career

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Isn't there a rule on this forum against fraudbusting?

 

[Charlemagne]

Isn't there a rule on this forum against fraudbusting?

I was under the impression that meant members doing their own pseudo-investigations and then posting them. This guy's videos have been shared in the past, and no one seemed to have a problem with it. In addition, there is a current discussion about Mr. Dux that is ongoing.

 

[Anarax]

You're right that Pinkman is odd. A lot of his other videos are similar, laced with awkward comedy and 1980's tv clips. I'm not saying there aren't legitimate criticisms of Frank Dux, but Pinkman doesn't usually do a good job proving his case. If you cut out the "comedy", tangents and his personal opinion, there's not much left in his videos. Meaning, if you want to try and inform people, you need facts. Pinkman finds some facts, but draws conclusions that aren't exactly grounded. Finding facts and former acquaintances(training partners, former servicemen, instructors, students, etc) of the person you are "busting" is the most objective way to go about it.

 

[hoshin1600]

Pinkman also made fun of dynamic tension exercises as if it was absurd to do. its actually pretty common and a fundamental practice in a lot of karate. the fact that he didnt know that reduces his credibility.

 

[JR 137]

It’s in a bit poor taste to call someone out like this. If you have a question about his claims, how about asking him directly instead of a potential free-for-all thread?

I asked him about his 56 KOs claim. He replied. Not exactly the most concise response, but he responded nonetheless. At first he seemed defensive about it and seemed to think I was going to attack his claim as has been done like the video.

Regarding the kumite record, he stated a lot of people fought each other, and it wasn’t a traditional single or double elimination tournament. It was basically each competitor fights a number of fights over a time period and the person with the best record is declared the winner. I don’t see that as a tournament, but he does. I see it as a season, series, etc. But whatever.

I’m not saying he’s the real deal by any means. I’ve never met him nor trained with him to call him anything.

His history and claims are controversial, to put it nicely. But calling him or anyone else here out like this is pretty tasteless. Do it the right way.

Hopefully I got this in before the thread gets locked and/or deleted.

 

[Charlemagne]

It’s in a bit poor taste to call someone out like this.

And here I was thinking that it is in poor taste to fabricate history, to include making a living off of falsifying your military credentials and training.

 

[JR 137]

And here I was thinking that it is in poor taste to fabricate history, to include making a living off of falsifying your military credentials and training.

Rather than state and pass these things off as fact, why not ask? It’s all in the delivery.

Forgetting about all the claims and tall tales, does anyone actually know what he teaches in his dojo? Let’s say all of his claims are 100% false. Does any of his history make a difference when it comes to his teaching of actual technique? Let’s say Royce Gracie mad all of those claims instead of Dux. Would that make his BJJ invalid or less effective?

I’m not a fan of his. A lot of the claims he’s made are pretty out there. Many have called him a pathological liar. The thing is, none of it makes any difference in my life. What he and his students/followers do is their business. I have no clue if his MA is legit or a complete hoax. And I’ll probably never find out because I’ll never actively seek him out.

Bashing the guy gets old. It’s too easy to do. You’re not coming up with anything original here. That’s really my point, I guess. You’re a good guy, Charlemagne. Don’t stoop to this level. It’s not going to get anyone anywhere.

 

[Charlemagne]

Forgetting about all the claims and tall tales, does anyone actually know what he teaches in his dojo? Let’s say all of his claims are 100% false. Does any of his history make a difference when it comes to his teaching of actual technique? Let’s say Royce Gracie mad all of those claims instead of Dux. Would that make his BJJ invalid or less effective?

We are not talking about Royce. If you simply take his martial arts claims alone, we have a problem. If you add everything else in, we have a pathological liar who shouldn't be allowed to teach anyone anything.

Bashing the guy gets old. It’s too easy to do. You’re not coming up with anything original here. That’s really my point, I guess. You’re a good guy, Charlemagne. Don’t stoop to this level. It’s not going to get anyone anywhere.

I didn't come up with it at all. I merely shared what someone else had done. I'm sick and tired of the garbage in martial arts and am glad when this sort of thing gets exposed. Legitimate martial artists should be happy about exposing the charlatans that are among us. You obviously don't like that sort of thing, and that is fine. You are not obligated to read or participate in this thread.

 

[JR 137]

We are not talking about Royce. If you simply take his martial arts claims alone, we have a problem. If you add everything else in, we have a pathological liar who shouldn't be allowed to teach anyone anything.


I didn't come up with it at all. I merely shared what someone else had done. I'm sick and tired of the garbage in martial arts and am glad when this sort of thing gets exposed. Legitimate martial artists should be happy about exposing the charlatans that are among us. You obviously don't like that sort of thing, and that is fine. You are not obligated to read or participate in this thread.

What teaching claims has he made? I’m not talking about the side-show nonsense like military, tournament records, etc. I’m talking about actual claims of his system and techniques he actually teaches on the floor, day in and day out. I haven’t seen ANY video of what it’s actually like. I’ve seen a few “pep talks,” philosophical lectures, etc., but I’ve never seen anything actually instructional. His claims are a bit outrageous IMO, but I look at them as a distraction.

Look at all the claims MAists have made throughout history. There’s a Mas Oyama thread kind of going right now. Killing bulls, chopping off their horns, catching live blade swords with his hands, etc. is all a distraction. What matters is the Kyokushin system. Oyama’s students have put their money where their mouth is. People can refute some of Gracie’s claims. It’s a distraction IMO. His students have put their money where their mouth is too. As for Dux? I don’t think anyone really knows what’s being taught outside of his students. Is it legit or fraud? I have no evidence of either. I haven’t seen any Ashida Kim-like videos, but I haven’t seen any Gracie JJ nor Kyokushin-like videos either.

Good luck with ridding the earth of frauds. I was there for a short while too. You eventually come to a point where you say let everyone do whatever makes them happy, so long as it doesn’t effect me and my family and friends.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Rather than state and pass these things off as fact, why not ask? It’s all in the delivery.

Forgetting about all the claims and tall tales, does anyone actually know what he teaches in his dojo? Let’s say all of his claims are 100% false. Does any of his history make a difference when it comes to his teaching of actual technique? Let’s say Royce Gracie mad all of those claims instead of Dux. Would that make his BJJ invalid or less effective?

I’m not a fan of his. A lot of the claims he’s made are pretty out there. Many have called him a pathological liar. The thing is, none of it makes any difference in my life. What he and his students/followers do is their business. I have no clue if his MA is legit or a complete hoax. And I’ll probably never find out because I’ll never actively seek him out.

Bashing the guy gets old. It’s too easy to do. You’re not coming up with anything original here. That’s really my point, I guess. You’re a good guy, Charlemagne. Don’t stoop to this level. It’s not going to get anyone anywhere.

What teaching claims has he made? I’m not talking about the side-show nonsense like military, tournament records, etc. I’m talking about actual claims of his system and techniques he actually teaches on the floor, day in and day out. I haven’t seen ANY video of what it’s actually like. I’ve seen a few “pep talks,” philosophical lectures, etc., but I’ve never seen anything actually instructional. His claims are a bit outrageous IMO, but I look at them as a distraction.

Look at all the claims MAists have made throughout history. There’s a Mas Oyama thread kind of going right now. Killing bulls, chopping off their horns, catching live blade swords with his hands, etc. is all a distraction. What matters is the Kyokushin system. Oyama’s students have put their money where their mouth is. People can refute some of Gracie’s claims. It’s a distraction IMO. His students have put their money where their mouth is too. As for Dux? I don’t think anyone really knows what’s being taught outside of his students. Is it legit or fraud? I have no evidence of either. I haven’t seen any Ashida Kim-like videos, but I haven’t seen any Gracie JJ nor Kyokushin-like videos either.

Good luck with ridding the earth of frauds. I was there for a short while too. You eventually come to a point where you say let everyone do whatever makes them happy, so long as it doesn’t effect me and my family and friends.

You're on to a good point here, I think.

Mr. Dux is certainly not alone in making outlandish and unsupported claims to support his martial arts credentials. A more relevant concern is what does he bring to the table that makes him interesting besides his own self-promotional assertions.

Helio Gracie made a lot of questionable self-aggrandizing claims during his life. (Most of them could be classified as extreme spin rather than outright lies, but still he wasn't what I would call a beacon of honesty or moral rectitude.) However he also put his reputation on the line with a number of legitimate, publicly documented challenge matches. More importantly, he helped teach and raise a generation of fighters who went on to prove the effectiveness of BJJ in a variety of contexts.

Mas Oyama made a number of claims which were either greatly exaggerated (his record of challenge matches in the U.S.) or downright fraudulent (chopping off the bull's horn). However he also created an art which has spread worldwide and repeatedly been proven effective in one-on-one unarmed combat just as BJJ has.

Bando grandmaster Dr. Maung Gyi fabricated an impressive military record and lied about it for years before being exposed. However he also helped spread an effective fighting art across the U.S., produced a decent crop of amateur full-contact fighters, and his martial expertise is praised by the Dog Brothers, who are some of the toughest martial artists around.

As for Mr. Dux, what is his legacy other than his self-promotional claims? He got a popular movie made about the story he tells. Other than that, I don't know. Is what he teaches any good? I have no idea. I've never seen it. His history may be bunk, but it's possible for an art to be effective despite a bogus background story. If I knew any Dux-ryu practitioners, I'd be happy to work out with them to see what I could learn, but I've never met any. I've never even seen the art on video or read a really good description of it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

As for Mr. Dux, what is his legacy other than his self-promotional claims? He got a popular movie made about the story he tells. Other than that, I don't know. Is what he teaches any good? I have no idea. I've never seen it. His history may be bunk, but it's possible for an art to be effective despite a bogus background story. If I knew any Dux-ryu practitioners, I'd be happy to work out with them to see what I could learn, but I've never met any. I've never even seen the art on video or read a really good description of it.

This. Some years ago, some folks in the NGAA went looking to track down some of the founder's history (a choke point in the lineage lost much detail of the history). They were unable to find the records they wanted to provide specifics on his Daito-ryu training. One of the senior martial artists helping them research basically said, "Why spend all this time and effort on it? If NGA works, then it wouldn't really matter if Morita invented it all from nothing."

 

[Buka]

You're on to a good point here, I think.

Mr. Dux is certainly not alone in making outlandish and unsupported claims to support his martial arts credentials. A more relevant concern is what does he bring to the table that makes him interesting besides his own self-promotional assertions.

Helio Gracie made a lot of questionable self-aggrandizing claims during his life. (Most of them could be classified as extreme spin rather than outright lies, but still he wasn't what I would call a beacon of honesty or moral rectitude.) However he also put his reputation on the line with a number of legitimate, publicly documented challenge matches. More importantly, he helped teach and raise a generation of fighters who went on to prove the effectiveness of BJJ in a variety of contexts.

Mas Oyama made a number of claims which were either greatly exaggerated (his record of challenge matches in the U.S.) or downright fraudulent (chopping off the bull's horn). However he also created an art which has spread worldwide and repeatedly been proven effective in one-on-one unarmed combat just as BJJ has.

Bando grandmaster Dr. Maung Gyi fabricated an impressive military record and lied about it for years before being exposed. However he also helped spread an effective fighting art across the U.S., produced a decent crop of amateur full-contact fighters, and his martial expertise is praised by the Dog Brothers, who are some of the toughest martial artists around.

As for Mr. Dux, what is his legacy other than his self-promotional claims? He got a popular movie made about the story he tells. Other than that, I don't know. Is what he teaches any good? I have no idea. I've never seen it. His history may be bunk, but it's possible for an art to be effective despite a bogus background story. If I knew any Dux-ryu practitioners, I'd be happy to work out with them to see what I could learn, but I've never met any. I've never even seen the art on video or read a really good description of it.

Got me to thinking here, Tony. I haven't met everyone in Martial Arts, but the many I know have trained with, or met, everyone from Bruce Lee to Rocky Marciano, from Ashida Kim to Laila Ali, from Count Dante to Steven Seagal.

But I've never met anyone who has even seen Frank Dux. Does he really exist? Maybe he's like Betty Crocker.

 

[JR 137]

You're on to a good point here, I think.

Mr. Dux is certainly not alone in making outlandish and unsupported claims to support his martial arts credentials. A more relevant concern is what does he bring to the table that makes him interesting besides his own self-promotional assertions.

Helio Gracie made a lot of questionable self-aggrandizing claims during his life. (Most of them could be classified as extreme spin rather than outright lies, but still he wasn't what I would call a beacon of honesty or moral rectitude.) However he also put his reputation on the line with a number of legitimate, publicly documented challenge matches. More importantly, he helped teach and raise a generation of fighters who went on to prove the effectiveness of BJJ in a variety of contexts.

Mas Oyama made a number of claims which were either greatly exaggerated (his record of challenge matches in the U.S.) or downright fraudulent (chopping off the bull's horn). However he also created an art which has spread worldwide and repeatedly been proven effective in one-on-one unarmed combat just as BJJ has.

Bando grandmaster Dr. Maung Gyi fabricated an impressive military record and lied about it for years before being exposed. However he also helped spread an effective fighting art across the U.S., produced a decent crop of amateur full-contact fighters, and his martial expertise is praised by the Dog Brothers, who are some of the toughest martial artists around.

As for Mr. Dux, what is his legacy other than his self-promotional claims? He got a popular movie made about the story he tells. Other than that, I don't know. Is what he teaches any good? I have no idea. I've never seen it. His history may be bunk, but it's possible for an art to be effective despite a bogus background story. If I knew any Dux-ryu practitioners, I'd be happy to work out with them to see what I could learn, but I've never met any. I've never even seen the art on video or read a really good description of it.

You made every point I was trying to make, only far more articulately.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You made every point I was trying to make, only far more articulately.

Tony is frustratingly good at that sometimes.

 

[wab25]

For anyone who cares... I was able to find video of Frank Dux demonstrating technique and teaching techniques... also a few breaking and cutting videos. Just go to youtube and put in Frank Dux. You will have to sort through to find the real footage of him and not people that look like him. You will also be able to find videos of his students and other Dux Ryu practitioners.

I will let those interested look those videos up and come to their own conclusions.

I will honestly say that I was hoping he would get past arguing whether he was really Frank and whether his system was real and or legitimate... and get on to sharing what he has learned in his studies, as it applies to the various other thread topics found here. Here's hoping...

 

[Gerry Seymour]

For anyone who cares... I was able to find video of Frank Dux demonstrating technique and teaching techniques... also a few breaking and cutting videos. Just go to youtube and put in Frank Dux. You will have to sort through to find the real footage of him and not people that look like him. You will also be able to find videos of his students and other Dux Ryu practitioners.

I will let those interested look those videos up and come to their own conclusions.

I will honestly say that I was hoping he would get past arguing whether he was really Frank and whether his system was real and or legitimate... and get on to sharing what he has learned in his studies, as it applies to the various other thread topics found here. Here's hoping...

Why not share a few of those you found, rather than everyone repeating the search?

 

[wab25]

As requested...

Here are some of the videos I found of Frank Dux in action.

Hanshi Frank Dux demonstrates: Dragon Technique
Hanshi Frank Dux demonstrates: Leopard Technique
Alonso Rosado con Frank Dux 1989
Frank Dux promoted by Calasanz

A few of Dux Ryu practitioners...

Dux Ryu Ninjutsu
Dux Ryu Kick Boxing

 

[Gerry Seymour]

As requested...

Here are some of the videos I found of Frank Dux in action.

Hanshi Frank Dux demonstrates: Dragon Technique
Hanshi Frank Dux demonstrates: Leopard Technique
Alonso Rosado con Frank Dux 1989
Frank Dux promoted by Calasanz

A few of Dux Ryu practitioners...

Dux Ryu Ninjutsu
Dux Ryu Kick Boxing

Thanks for posting that. Nothing earth-shatteringly either good or bad in those. Some of the same demo nonsense we see with almost all demonstrations. Some structural issues I see with some of the techniques (both in demonstration and in the students), but nothing surprising.

 

[hoshin1600]

But I've never met anyone who has even seen Frank Dux.

you should know better than that, he is a CIA ninja OF COURSE NO ONE EVER SEES HIM.

oh and i find it hard to believe you dont know everyone in MA. i think your just being modest to make a point.