6 year old first dan??? whiskey tango foxtrot!

[Steve]

Steve, I am sure that was meant as funny. But even if that were true why would it matter? They are 6 years old for goodness sake. Let them be kids.

first, it was hilarious.

And there was also a point in there that you missed. That point is that we need to remember the context. You can't apply an adult standard to a child, even if the vocabulary is the same. The accomplishment is relative.

Lastly, you raise ab interesting point. If the idea of kids fighting is so distasteful, we really shouldn't be teaching them to fight. Do you teach kids? Surely not. They are, after all, just kids, for goodness sake.

 

[skribs]

Does your Master give Poom BB's to 6 year old's?

I think the youngest we've had is 8. It would be possible, however unlikely, to get one at 6. Our classes start at 4*, and it is a minimum of 2.5 years to get black belt**. So at 6 1/2, someone could technically have a black belt. However, that 2.5 year minimum is just that - a minimum. That's if you test every 2 months for the first 9 tests, and every 4 months for the next 3 tests, in order to get your black belt. Most students at age 4-5 take 6-8 months per test for the first few tests, and 4-6 months per test afterward. So while it's technically possible, I don't think it will happen.

*Some kids start at 3-1/2. So technically they could get a black belt at 6, but it would still be really hard for them to get it because they also take 6-8 months per test.

**There is one exception, someone who tested on an accelerated schedule. But that person was at the dojang 20 hours per week, and also had 4 years experience prior. It took me 23 months to get my black belt.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I suppose you can argue free will and all, but doesn't this concern you for the impression it leaves for MA in general? I can see so many non MA people reading this and saying "how cute".

How would we feel if colleges started awarding under-graduate degrees to 6 year old's? I disdain the mysticism that used to be waived in some MA's but if we as a MA society do not hold certain things to a higher standard where does the bar stop?
Just a very sad and I am guessing parent motivated article.

Here's my current view, more or less:

Kano originally used a black belt to indicate someone with experience. It's a visual cue, and can be used in concert with other visual cues, like that it's a child. A child with experience (using that original usage) would be a black belt. What counts as "with experience"? Well, that's pretty vague, so there's a range of places where that line could be drawn. I could make a reasonable argument for drawing that line where I currently award yellow belt (the first rank I award), or anywhere between there and where I would award black belt, or even beyond that point.

My current preference is for BB to indicate an advanced student (in my curriculum, someone with probably more than 7 years of consistent, focused training). That's different from how my primary instructor defines it. I think it's different from the BB my brother has in TKD - I think it took him maybe 4 years or so to get his, and that's probably with him not making all the classes (he works in theatre, so his schedule gets wonky). I don't see much consistency anywhere in MA, except within a given association (and sometimes an art - BJJ has pretty good consistency from what I've seen). In any range, there are going to be those at the fringe (and perhaps outliers). The wider the range, the more "off" the outliers seem. So, someone with a legitimate BB in Judo (where BB tends to be fairly consistent) who is at the very low end of their range seems "off" to someone at the opposite end of that range. Same in NGA within the NGAA. And then we get the huge range of "martial arts BB", and the number that seem "off" to some of us is even higher.

But to someone with a similar standard to the belt in question won't think it's that odd. They're more likely to wonder why the heck it should take 7-10 years to get a BB.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Their might be good reasons not to start MA at age 3 or 4.
Most of the great Korean martial artist started at age 10 or older.
Most great America martial artist started in the Army, Air Force, Navy, or Marines as young men.
I see no advantage in starting MA at age 3 or 4.
My granddaughter is an excellent gymnast at age 9.
If she wanted to train in MA, in one year, she would be better than the 6 year old black at age 10 in martial arts.
At a young age gymnast or dance teaches young people to control their bodies.
I believe very young child can not understand what MA are about.

I know for fact with only 2 years training at age 18, I was better than a 18 year old with 12 years of training at tiger rock.
I had developed my body and mind throw sports , so when I started at age 16 I could not get enough training.
I still did sports, but every minute I was not doing sports, I was practicing MA.
The 18 year 4th dan does nothing but stand around and when she shows her technique it is sub par.

6 year old black belts a terrible idea.

My question would be this: why does a very young child need to understand what MA is all about? Why couldn't MA training for them teach young people to control their bodies? And why do we need to compare a 10-year-old to a 6-year-old?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Not all college degrees are equal. There are reasons why degrees from MIT, Cal Tech, or Harvard are so highly regarded, and why others are not.

If a college started giving degrees to 6 year olds, so what? That college would be undermining the value of only their degree . not degrees at large .

And would lose their accreditation, which is a large part of how those with knowledge assess the value of a degree from a school they're not otherwise familiar with.

 

[Danny T]

As I recall, it was something to indicate competence (rather than mastery) - to differentiate the "experienced" players from the relative beginners.

Yeap.
The almighty Black Belt was awarded to indicate which students were competent in falls and being thrown.
Absolutely nothing related to mastery rather toward safety for training.

 

[dvcochran]

So, someone with a legitimate BB in Judo (where BB tends to be fairly consistent) who is at the very low end of their range seems "off" to someone at the opposite end of that range.

But isn't this the key component of what you are saying? What/where is the base minimum? I agree this is near impossible to exactly define since, among other things, individual ideas and opinions differ. But is there not some gross set of skills and requirements that, as a MA community, we all agree are required to hold a given level? Surely we agree there are some standard general requirements.

 

[dvcochran]

I think the youngest we've had is 8. It would be possible, however unlikely, to get one at 6. Our classes start at 4*, and it is a minimum of 2.5 years to get black belt**. So at 6 1/2, someone could technically have a black belt. However, that 2.5 year minimum is just that - a minimum. That's if you test every 2 months for the first 9 tests, and every 4 months for the next 3 tests, in order to get your black belt. Most students at age 4-5 take 6-8 months per test for the first few tests, and 4-6 months per test afterward. So while it's technically possible, I don't think it will happen.

*Some kids start at 3-1/2. So technically they could get a black belt at 6, but it would still be really hard for them to get it because they also take 6-8 months per test.

**There is one exception, someone who tested on an accelerated schedule. But that person was at the dojang 20 hours per week, and also had 4 years experience prior. It took me 23 months to get my black belt.[/

Not all college degrees are equal. There are reasons why degrees from MIT, Cal Tech, or Harvard are so highly regarded, and why others are not.

If a college started giving degrees to 6 year olds, so what? That college would be undermining the value of only their degree . not degrees at large .

So, to put the article on scale, it was a student from a disreputable, non accredited school? I do not know anything about the school or system. I just know that within the community of this forum who are informed and intelligent students of some form of martial art, it could be seen as such. People outside our area of knowledge may see it differently, resulting in a negative effect on the MA society as a whole.
Of course, we cannot control what the masses think but, just like the elite schools mentioned, should we not strive to maintain high standards?
Are not some saying it is ok to be the slum level, non-accredited school?

 

[dvcochran]

And would lose their accreditation, which is a large part of how those with knowledge assess the value of a degree from a school they're not otherwise familiar with.

Agree. Accreditation for colleges, to me, is considered the minimum standards for a school. Should not the requirements to reach BB, or something else possibly, be the same for MA's?

 

[jobo]

Agree. Accreditation for colleges, to me, is considered the minimum standards for a school. Should not the requirements to reach BB, or something else possibly, be the same for MA's?

when they inevitably put me in charge of the world, just after I've banned war and poverty and greed,il deal with the black belt issue.

all blackbelts must have the minimum standard of being international level gymnasts. that's the only level of fitness and control of your body that is appropriate to high rank in ma. on top of that they must be able to walk uninjured over broken glass, pick up red hot potss with their forearms and either fight 10 big bouncers at the same time or go ten rounds with a national champion boxer at the same weight division. anything less than this is bringing ma in to disrepute.

I considered including catching flies in mid flight, catching rattle snakes in mid strike and sleeping on a bed of nails, but decided they were to hard to test

where would you put the minimum standard .? and why ?

 

[Steve]

You have not seen my grandchildren at age 6.

I am picturing the triplets from Brave.

Agree. Accreditation for colleges, to me, is considered the minimum standards for a school. Should not the requirements to reach BB, or something else possibly, be the same for MA's?

degrees are really only used to evaluate qualifications, generally to get you a job. Once you have the job, the degree itself is just a ceremonial indicator and the real value of the degree is in your application of what you learned. So, to be clear, there are two finctions of a degree: the reputation of the institution, and your ability to apply skills you learned (I.e., the quality of the education)

Don't we already have this in MA? Do we need more, and would that even be possible?

 

[skribs]

So, to put the article on scale, it was a student from a disreputable, non accredited school? I do not know anything about the school or system. I just know that within the community of this forum who are informed and intelligent students of some form of martial art, it could be seen as such. People outside our area of knowledge may see it differently, resulting in a negative effect on the MA society as a whole.
Of course, we cannot control what the masses think but, just like the elite schools mentioned, should we not strive to maintain high standards?
Are not some saying it is ok to be the slum level, non-accredited school?

I don't see how what you said applies to what I said. It's not even the same art, let alone the same organization.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

But isn't this the key component of what you are saying? What/where is the base minimum? I agree this is near impossible to exactly define since, among other things, individual ideas and opinions differ. But is there not some gross set of skills and requirements that, as a MA community, we all agree are required to hold a given level? Surely we agree there are some standard general requirements.

Apparently not, since the school in the OP is part of that MA community.

Based on Danny’s post, Kano and I would disagree greatly on what BB means, if we each insisted on using the definition we started our curriculum with. Am I too strict, or was Kano too lenient? Neither, I think.

 

[RTKDCMB]

If a college started giving degrees to 6 year olds, so what? That college would be undermining the value of only their degree . not degrees at large .

Unless it was a supergenius child prodigy of epic proportions.

 

[Tez3]

where would you put the minimum standard .? and why ?

Learning to read, write and use grammar...………….

 

[jobo]

Learning to read, write and use grammar...………….

I can do all three, but grammar is of course optional, as is speeling
which grammatical rule are you following with multiple full stops...............................

 

[Danny T]

Apparently not, since the school in the OP is part of that MA community.

Based on Danny’s post, Kano and I would disagree greatly on what BB means, if we each insisted on using the definition we started our curriculum with. Am I too strict, or was Kano too lenient? Neither, I think.

Black Belt is whatever the particular awarding authority deems it to be.
It was not until 1935 that other colored belts such as yellow, orange, green, blue and purple entered the ranking system. Mikonosuke Kawaishi is generally regarded as the originator of this practice when he started teaching Judo in Paris in 1935.
There is no equally accepted industry standard as to what a Black Belt rank requirement is.

 

[Steve]

Regarding what the masses think, its

Unless it was a supergenius child prodigy of epic proportions.

It could happen.

 

[TSDTexan]

In many arts, prior to the belt system, there were just three levels: student, instructor (certificate of license), and something akin to heir-apparent (certificate of complete transmission).

EDIT: Belts were introduced by Jigoro Kano in Judo (based on a similar structure from scholastics, IIRC). Originally, it was just white and black.

according to my research, Dr. J borrowed the black belt from the blackbelt/black dash/ribbon award given for armoured swimming combatives of jujitsu.
think samurai water polo

He also, later introduced a brown belt just prior to black in his belt system....

Gichin Funakoshi took that three belt system and asked his student body to accept the green belt between white and black. I dont think it was implemented during his lifetime. there is some difference of opinion about that specific thing.

 

[Bruce7]

My question would be this: why does a very young child need to understand what MA is all about? Why couldn't MA training for them teach young people to control their bodies? And why do we need to compare a 10-year-old to a 6-year-old?

they both would be 10