6 year old first dan??? whiskey tango foxtrot!

[dvcochran]

when they inevitably put me in charge of the world, just after I've banned war and poverty and greed,il deal with the black belt issue.

all blackbelts must have the minimum standard of being international level gymnasts. that's the only level of fitness and control of your body that is appropriate to high rank in ma. on top of that they must be able to walk uninjured over broken glass, pick up red hot potss with their forearms and either fight 10 big bouncers at the same time or go ten rounds with a national champion boxer at the same weight division. anything less than this is bringing ma in to disrepute.

I considered including catching flies in mid flight, catching rattle snakes in mid strike and sleeping on a bed of nails, but decided they were to hard to test

where would you put the minimum standard .? and why ?

It is a very good question that I do not have an answer for. But I feel there is a minimum standard. This would be a great exercise for someone who is up to the task of weighting different aspects that are common to the majority of MA's.
The why is to maintain value in MA's and not letting it wash away into to obscurity.

 

[dvcochran]

Now how does go fit into the kyu/dan rankings? Did they steal it from MA to did MA steal it from go?

For the record, go rankings mean the same thing across the board, and in different countries. Just like my former elo 1500 for chess in the us meant the same thing in new york as it did in florida or Germany.

What?

 

[dvcochran]

I think there's a few issues here. The first is that objective measures (i.e. you must have X knowledge to pass your rank test) is different than subjective measures (i.e. you need to be in the top 0.01% of a competition to be a Grand Master).

The second is that your ranking is based on the competition. I used to play World of Warcraft, and there were times of day when arenas were populated by a bunch of people who had no clue what they were doing, and others where the other players were all no-life try-hards (like myself) who would just destroy you. So if you play at one time of day, you may expect to get to a rating of 1100, but at a different time of day a rating of 1600.

Both examples are measurable so they are not subjective. But I get what you are saying.

 

[dvcochran]

now... this one has the hallmarks of Shotokan/JKA dan level kata. If the rest of the kyu forms and the forms for shodan were this good with Kime, and attention to timing, and precision in technique.... even i would be forced to grant a shodan to this person.

you dont get that good without logging the many many hours that it takes. I suspect thos girls parents are high dan who make the kid practice 3 to 4 hours a day.

my my my.... is this the next Rika Usami????

I recognize that form as a version of kong sang koon. What is it called in Shotokan?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

What?

Is that question about go, or chess' elo ratings?

 

[Steve]

I agree they are not synonymous. Holding a degree in X does not mean you know or can do X. That is a constant in the engineering fields I am involved in anyway. But there is a considerable amount of groundwork and fundamentals learned at college. The big difference is for many jobs a person will not even be considered without a degree. Unless they have 10-15 years experience in a specific field.
The value of higher education has become white washed since society and the colleges sold most people on the lie that a high school graduate must go to college to ever get ahead. Sadly, most kids today end up with a huge debt and little to show for it. The kids who figured it out while still in high school and were truly ready for college still get a great deal of value from college. Like it or not, it is a prerequisite for most mid to upper level jobs. Those who succeed with out a degree either worked their way up from the bottom, had help along the way, or are simply exceptional. That said, I am a huge fan of trade and vocational school learning. We use a balance of both. Our engineers are all degreed. Our techs are junior college or trade school graduates. College or trade school completion shows a level of commitment I look for in people.
The 2nd best programmer I have ever seen was self taught with a 2 year degree. But he is definitely in the exception category.
So that I understand, how do we already have this in MA?

I think you have some internally inconsistent views on the value of college. But For what it’s worth, I, too, am a fan of practical degrees and certificates from trade programs. I’m also a big fan of apprenticeships.

I was saying, styles have reputations, schools have reputations, and where belts have a practical, objective purpose, they remain meaningful (e.g., competition). Same as degrees. You can’t be a doctor without a medical degree. Can’t be a pharmacologist without a degree. Architects, engineers, etc all require degrees. And where the degrees are not intrinsically tied to a practical education, they can be exploited at for profit schools, where kids tend to go into a lot of debt.

So what more could we do in MA, and what good do you think will come of it?

 

[Steve]

Is that question about go, or chess' elo ratings?

You keep bringing up ELO. you’re bringing me down man. Don’t bring me down.

 

[TSDTexan]

I recognize that form as a version of kong sang koon. What is it called in Shotokan?

kusanku (dai)
Here is Rika Usami doing it.

There are two Kusanku kata.

Kusanku Sho
and
Kusanku Dai

And the older... earlier version of Kusanku/Kong Sang Koon... found its way to Korea from Okinawa... through Japan. Several versions of Kong Sang Koon made it to Korea, one was the Shotokan version, and then there was the Shudokan version, and lastly the Shito ryu version. I have seen Koreans perform these versions (with changes that time brings)

 

[skribs]

Both examples are measurable so they are not subjective. But I get what you are saying.

What I mean is that in scenario 1, the way in which you obtain a rank is based on a static goal, whereas in scenario 2 it's a dynamic goal.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It is a very good question that I do not have an answer for. But I feel there is a minimum standard. This would be a great exercise for someone who is up to the task of weighting different aspects that are common to the majority of MA's.
The why is to maintain value in MA's and not letting it wash away into to obscurity.

One problem with trying to create a minimum standard across all MA is that there are too many approaches, and too many different priorities.

• Many arts have no forms, so we can't use anything about forms as a common standard.
• Some places aren't focused on anything but competition, with no interest in effectiveness outside those competitions. And those competitions vary widely (think MMA, compared to Judo, compared to Kendo, compared to fencing, compared to Olympic TKD), so there's no common standard there.
• Some places are practicing for reasons other than actual fight prep, so effectiveness for fighting isn't a common standard (unless we use a definition of MA that excludes these).
• Some systems don't have a set of delineated, standard techniques, and those that do have widely varying numbers (and ways of identifying what is a "different technique" when counting) so we can't even say X number of techniques.
• Then we have the issue of difference of opinion of what the minimum should be.

I'm not sure where we'd find a common ground that's not highly subjective.

 

[dvcochran]

I think you have some internally inconsistent views on the value of college. But For what it’s worth, I, too, am a fan of practical degrees and certificates from trade programs. I’m also a big fan of apprenticeships.

I was saying, styles have reputations, schools have reputations, and where belts have a practical, objective purpose, they remain meaningful (e.g., competition). Same as degrees. You can’t be a doctor without a medical degree. Can’t be a pharmacologist without a degree. Architects, engineers, etc all require degrees. And where the degrees are not intrinsically tied to a practical education, they can be exploited at for profit schools, where kids tend to go into a lot of debt.

So what more could we do in MA, and what good do you think will come of it?

Who is being inconsistent? A person can find gainful employment and use the titles you mention, even in the U.S without a degree. Their liability would be considerably greater since they would not have documented and certified education and training to support that they are qualified to do the work. As you say, this is an area where reputation carries weight. There are still "doctors" in the eastern mountains of TN whose only training is the generations of education handed down to them from their family. Would I use one if I were in the mountains and fell and injured myself or fell sick? Yes. Would I follow up with other resources? Most likely.

I have never had a fully non-degreed engineer work for me but I have worked with quite a few. Their title was awarded by the company they worked for and most were more than qualified. The main differences you see in this scenario is that their field of knowledge it very specific, limited to the needs of their company. Get them outside their specific knowledge and they can have trouble talking in generalities. This is an area where a good college education provides great value.
At the end of the day, there are not many people who are highly successful with only one of the two components (college only or OTJ training). They would fall in my exception category.

 

[dvcochran]

Is that question about go, or chess' elo ratings?

Yea, that is a language I do not understand.

 

[dvcochran]

One problem with trying to create a minimum standard across all MA is that there are too many approaches, and too many different priorities.

• Many arts have no forms, so we can't use anything about forms as a common standard.
• Some places aren't focused on anything but competition, with no interest in effectiveness outside those competitions. And those competitions vary widely (think MMA, compared to Judo, compared to Kendo, compared to fencing, compared to Olympic TKD), so there's no common standard there.
• Some places are practicing for reasons other than actual fight prep, so effectiveness for fighting isn't a common standard (unless we use a definition of MA that excludes these).
• Some systems don't have a set of delineated, standard techniques, and those that do have widely varying numbers (and ways of identifying what is a "different technique" when counting) so we can't even say X number of techniques.
• Then we have the issue of difference of opinion of what the minimum should be.

I'm not sure where we'd find a common ground that's not highly subjective.

I am spit balling.
Your second bullet would fall into martial sport so could be factored out. There are tome styles like TKD that have both.
Similar styles could find enough common ground to be grouped together like fields in upper education (engineering, arts, teaching, etc...)?
Delineation of technique could be tough but should be a qualifier. Just like most colleges require a specific subject (humanities for example)be mastered before attaining a degree. There is variability in this mastery from school to school but it implies proficiency.
Not many people actively practicing a MA are doing so as a form of income. That is a big underlying factor. But I strongly feel there can and should be universal qualifiers to hold certain levels. There are dozens of different Doctorate degrees (like different styles). I usually hold someone in a different regard when I see PhD after their name. Until they give me a reason not to.

 

[jobo]

I am spit balling.
Your second bullet would fall into martial sport so could be factored out. There are tome styles like TKD that have both.
Similar styles could find enough common ground to be grouped together like fields in upper education (engineering, arts, teaching, etc...)?
Delineation of technique could be tough but should be a qualifier. Just like most colleges require a specific subject (humanities for example)be mastered before attaining a degree. There is variability in this mastery from school to school but it implies proficiency.
Not many people actively practicing a MA are doing so as a form of income. That is a big underlying factor. But I strongly feel there can and should be universal qualifiers to hold certain levels. There are dozens of different Doctorate degrees (like different styles). I usually hold someone in a different regard when I see PhD after their name. Until they give me a reason not to.

it would seem the first 5hing to do, would be to pick a minimum level of " fitness " so strengh, mobility reactions, endurance etc, that's very easy to do and very easy to measure. then at least you have a level playing field to assess the various skill levels against.

just as you would have a minimum IQ level to even be considered for a phd, they dont wait till the end of the course to decided your to stupid

 

[mograph]

After watching the videos...let me clarify my disagreement.

I disagree with an assumption of any school that gives black belts to youth are mcdojos. I feel before someone labels a school they should have some knowledge or proof of poor instruction.

If you were referring just to that school as a mcdojo....ok I can kinda see it.

Fair enough. Yeah, just this school.

 

[wab25]

It is a very good question that I do not have an answer for. But I feel there is a minimum standard. This would be a great exercise for someone who is up to the task of weighting different aspects that are common to the majority of MA's.
The why is to maintain value in MA's and not letting it wash away into to obscurity.

Ok, I will set the minimum standard for black belts, that all arts must follow. The requirements are as follows:

1. Fitness - run a mile in under 7 minutes, 50 sit ups in 1 minute, 10 pull ups and can continuously jump rope for 3 minutes.
2. Demonstrate all the Heian Katas
3. Demonstrate 20 Bunkai found in the Heian Katas

This should be good. Unless you practice something other than Shotokan Karate. The Judo, Jujitsu, BJJ guys are going to be really upset that they have to learn these silly kata. But I guess we should have separate standards for different groups of arts... one for striking arts and one for grappling arts. Ok, use the above for striking arts... too bad if you study TKD... in addition to those Taegeuk forms, now you have to also learn the Heians, because you will be graded only on the Heians. Now for grappling arts:

1. Fitness - run a mile in under 7 minutes, 50 sit ups in 1 minute, 10 pull ups and can continuously jump rope for 3 minutes.
2. Demonstrate 20 throws
3. Compete in and win a local Judo tournament

Sorry BJJ guys... you have to compete in Judo to get rank. But hey, now that we all agree, we finally have a minimum standard for black belt.

A bunch of you reading this are saying to yourselves, "Who are you and who gave you the authority to set the standards? These don't reflect my art at all." And you would be right. But aren't we all doing this? We are looking at other schools and other arts and deciding for them, what their minimum standard should be, based on the standard we have at our own school. And we have exactly the same authority to do this as I have to set a universal standard for all arts... None.

Take some time and read the threads on this site about how to find a Martial Arts school. What are people told to do? Go watch the class or take the free class if they offer one. Watch the instructor to see if you get along with his teaching style. Watch the upper rank students and assistant instructors to see if they can do what is being taught. Essentially, we tell people to go see what the instructor can do, and what he can teach his students to do. Use that to determine if it is a good school to go to.

Any school can set any standard they want for black belt. However, every school will be judged by the quality of those black belts, by the eyes of the public. That includes other martial artists and non-martial artists. And if some other school has a higher, lower or just plain silly standard... so what? That standard only effects you if you join that school. So the important thing is to make sure that you agree with the standards that are set where you train. If the standards are a little low, you can find ways to push them up. Or train somewhere else. Those standards are going to vary, even within the same art and the same organization. This is why we tell people looking for an art, to find a good instructor over finding a particular art. A good instructor will have good standards, and students rising to meet those standards. Your idea of good standards may change as you progress...

 

[vince1]

I totally agree with every school or martial art having different standards to obtain a black belt and have experienced this myself. I remember clearly as a kid being enrolled in TaeKwonDo/Hapkido and quickly moving through the ranks to get my red belt. I had a gymnastic background prior to being enrolled into TaeKwonDo.I found the forms relatively easy along with gymnastic ability got me to a high rank in a short period of time.

Fast forward to my current martial art Aiki Jiu Jitsu. It will take many years to obtain a black belt ,not because of my lack of physical ability but because of the standard, quantity of material that I need to learn. I like the challenge and have a much greater appreciation for past Masters that created this particular martial art based on, hands on experience.

So when I see a child with the rank of black belt I see a child with a huge amount of potential in the coming years. More than likely when this child gets older will experiment with other martial arts wanting to learn more.

 

[Steve]

I think this thread has jumped the shark.

 

[jobo]

Ok, I will set the minimum standard for black belts, that all arts must follow. The requirements are as follows:

1. Fitness - run a mile in under 7 minutes, 50 sit ups in 1 minute, 10 pull ups and can continuously jump rope for 3 minutes.
2. Demonstrate all the Heian Katas
3. Demonstrate 20 Bunkai found in the Heian Katas

This should be good. Unless you practice something other than Shotokan Karate. The Judo, Jujitsu, BJJ guys are going to be really upset that they have to learn these silly kata. But I guess we should have separate standards for different groups of arts... one for striking arts and one for grappling arts. Ok, use the above for striking arts... too bad if you study TKD... in addition to those Taegeuk forms, now you have to also learn the Heians, because you will be graded only on the Heians. Now for grappling arts:

1. Fitness - run a mile in under 7 minutes, 50 sit ups in 1 minute, 10 pull ups and can continuously jump rope for 3 minutes.
2. Demonstrate 20 throws
3. Compete in and win a local Judo tournament

Sorry BJJ guys... you have to compete in Judo to get rank. But hey, now that we all agree, we finally have a minimum standard for black belt.

A bunch of you reading this are saying to yourselves, "Who are you and who gave you the authority to set the standards? These don't reflect my art at all." And you would be right. But aren't we all doing this? We are looking at other schools and other arts and deciding for them, what their minimum standard should be, based on the standard we have at our own school. And we have exactly the same authority to do this as I have to set a universal standard for all arts... None.

Take some time and read the threads on this site about how to find a Martial Arts school. What are people told to do? Go watch the class or take the free class if they offer one. Watch the instructor to see if you get along with his teaching style. Watch the upper rank students and assistant instructors to see if they can do what is being taught. Essentially, we tell people to go see what the instructor can do, and what he can teach his students to do. Use that to determine if it is a good school to go to.

Any school can set any standard they want for black belt. However, every school will be judged by the quality of those black belts, by the eyes of the public. That includes other martial artists and non-martial artists. And if some other school has a higher, lower or just plain silly standard... so what? That standard only effects you if you join that school. So the important thing is to make sure that you agree with the standards that are set where you train. If the standards are a little low, you can find ways to push them up. Or train somewhere else. Those standards are going to vary, even within the same art and the same organization. This is why we tell people looking for an art, to find a good instructor over finding a particular art. A good instructor will have good standards, and students rising to meet those standards. Your idea of good standards may change as you progress...

isn't that a bit easy on the fitness.? that really shouldnt a challenge for any one under 50( who has any pretence of being fit) if , as seems to be the case on here, we want bla k belts to be considered elite, then the fitness standards need to be elite as well. not sure quite were that should be ,! top 5% , top 10% of the population by age . certainly no lower than the upper quartile, or it really does stop being elite and just gets very ordinary.



not sure an ability to memorise dance moves should be included, technique s yes, but in any order against a fully resisting partner, ie if you cant kick him in the head, you've failed your kicking exam if you do get kicked in the head, you've failed your moving out of the way exam.

 

[Buka]

I hope the link works.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

That was awesome.

So....if you're the parents of the girl in the OP do you even see the difference?

Are there people who don't see the difference? What about the poor kid from the OP, would she see the difference? I know every kid I've ever trained would see and know the difference.