2000 and counting...

[shesulsa]

.

 

[elder999]

I need to establish some things before I say anything about this.

1) I am a patriot. My family has a long history in this country, and it's a country that I’m mostly proud of, in spite of whatever complaints or grievances I have. It has taken more than a few missteps through history, and will continue to do so, but I wouldn’t live anywhere else……for now.


2) I am not a supporter of the war in Iraq. Not because I think it was completely unjustified, or the administration lied, but because it is a colossal waste of energy when viewed through its principle justification: the so-called war on terror.


In posting and conversing about this elsewhere, I’ve pretty much covered a fair amount of the ground the rest of you have covered. However, I have also had conversations with U.S. military personnel who have a variety of viewpoints on the war in Iraq, and –to a man, whether for it or against it in principle-they are consistent in their viewpoint: the number of war dead should not be an issue.

These men and women take an oath, and their lives- however rightly or wrongly you feel they are being “spent”- are part and parcel of the very currency of our freedom-along with our exercising our rights as citizens. We’ve lost men in actions that were mistakes before, sometimes mistakes with the very best of intentions-Somalia comes to mind . Whatever you believe about the war in Iraq, these men and women are over there because they chose to do a job, and that’s where their job sent them.They will (mostly) do that job, however they feel about the war in Iraq.


They work for us. You should remember that.


Sadly, we are “stuck” with the situation in Iraq, and will continue to be there for quite some time. American servicemen and women and Iraqi soldiers, police and citizens will continue to be killed and maimed, and, eventually, the situation will become similar to the one that existed in Northern Ireland for so long-ours will be an occupying army and continuing target; a new generation of insurgents will continue to bomb us , perhaps even having forgotten why and a portion, perhaps even a majority, of the Iraqi population will continue to want us to remain there.


Forget about the over 1,000 dead and try to imagine the day ten years distant, when the total has reached three or five thousand-and rising, and it doesn’t even make the ticker at the bottom of the screen on NotNews-er, I mean Fox news or CNN..

 

[michaeledward]

Perhaps you heard the Presidents prime-time new conference last week.

Or Maybe you heard the First Lady's monolog at the Correspondents's dinner.

How many times did they ask the citizens to honor those who serve? How clearly did they recognize the sacrifices being demand of those who serve.

The number is zero.

It brings to mind this paragraph.

We are also here to ask, and we are here to ask vehemently, where are the leaders of our country? Where is the leadership? We are here to ask where are McNamara, Rostow, Bundy, Gilpatric (Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz) and so many others. Where are they now that we, the men whom they sent off to war, have returned? These are commanders who have deserted their troops, and there is no more serious crime in the law of war. The Army says they never leave their wounded.

The Marines say they never leave even their dead. These men have left all the casualties and retreated behind a pious shield of public rectitude. They have left the real stuff of their reputation bleaching behind them in the sun in this country.

And if the 1593 who have died, and the official listing of over 12,000 who have been wounded, is in some way to be not an issue, then maybe we can look at the hundreds of billions of dollars the country has spent on this project. I think the current spending is at about 180 Billion dollars, with another 80 billion dollars on the bench.

How do you ask a soldier to be the last soldier to die in Iraq?

 

[elder999]

And if the 1593 who have died, and the official listing of over 12,000 who have been wounded, is in some way to be not an issue, then maybe we can look at the hundreds of billions of dollars the country has spent on this project. I think the current spending is at about 180 Billion dollars, with another 80 billion dollars on the bench.

How do you ask a soldier to be the last soldier to die in Iraq?

It's not an issue to those soldiers-that's what I was saying, and I'd say the greater issue might be the uncounted thousands of innocent Iraqi dead, and yes, the hundreds of billions of dollars in the face of unprecedented deficits is a greater issue to me than men and women whose lives were virtually forfeit by virtue of their chosen profession.

As for the "last soldier to die in Iraq," they'll die,by all indications, willingly, and a long time from now.

Now, I'm no fan of the war in Iraq, the BuSh administration, or Mr. BuSh himself, and I used to go on long and loud about more than a few things about him and the troops. Soldiers set me straight-again-and pointed out a few of the things that he has done-like privately visiting with the families of soldiers killed in Iraq and Afghanistan, rather than attending public services.

As for what you said about "not honoring the troops, that is an issue, along with a host of other things like how this war in Iraq is about hegemony and corporate control of American policy, the USA PATRIOT Act, the HUGE deficit, etc., etc., etc.

Soldiers, on the other hand, die, as they always have....and I'm willing to bet that most of us will get used to it.

 

[michaeledward]

Soldiers, on the other hand, die, as they always have....and I'm willing to bet that most of us will get used to it.

A sad comment.

I hope I am in the minorty on that estimation as well.

 

[hardheadjarhead]

elder999 in bold:

These men and women take an oath, and their lives- however rightly or wrongly you feel they are being “spent”- are part and parcel of the very currency of our freedom-along with our exercising our rights as citizens.

They work for us. You should remember that.[/size][/font]

Forget about the over 1,000 dead and try to imagine the day ten years distant, when the total has reached three or five thousand-and rising, and it doesn’t even make the ticker at the bottom of the screen on NotNews-er, I mean Fox news or CNN..



The entire tone of this post is incredibly dismissive of the soldiers, sailors, airman, and Marines serving over there. It minimizes them, relegates them to nothing more than drones.

I'd submit that they are not working for us, but rather for the big business interests endorsing and profiting from this war...just as Marines in Haiti in the early part of the 20th century were working for Dole and United Fruit. Their deaths and sacrifice have little to do with freedom or staying true to their oaths to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic." Report after report clearly indicates that the Iraqi regime was no threat prior to our invasion. The President and his administration knew that going in.

I will not forget about the dead, nor those about to die. Nor will Michael and others here. But you're right about the cable networks ignoring them. It'll be old news...and the government won't permit the press to film the coffins as they arrive. Bad for public image, you know.


Regards,


Steve

 

[elder999]

The entire tone of this post is incredibly dismissive of the soldiers, sailors, airman, and Marines serving over there. It minimizes them, relegates them to nothing more than drones.

I’m sorry that you took it that way-it wasn’t my intention at all.



While I never had the privilege to serve, I have had the privilege of working in close contact with members of various branches of our armed forces-with the exception, as far as I know, of the Marine Corps, though it is likely that I’ve written at least part of their training materials in the last decade. While working with these men and women, I’ve developed nothing but the highest regard for their dedication and professionalism, and I have always felt distinctly safe in their company.



I’ve had the opportunity to discuss a variety of topics with them in detail, not the least of which has been the war in Iraq, which I almost entirely am against. You might be surprised how many of those service men and women agree with my arguments, and point out their willingness to go, or have gone, based upon their sense of duty to their oath, and to U.S. citizens.



I’m acquainted with one Army officer who basically has said that it’s his duty to tell his men to go die,, and to go die with them if he must.

I'd submit that they are not working for us, but rather for the big business interests endorsing and profiting from this war...just as Marines in Haiti in the early part of the 20th century were working for Dole and United Fruit. Their deaths and sacrifice have little to do with freedom or staying true to their oaths to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic." Report after report clearly indicates that the Iraqi regime was no threat prior to our invasion. The President and his administration knew that going in.

While I can agree with you historically and in principle, I’ll point out that many men and a few women died in Viet Nam believing that we were there to protect and free the South Vietnamese people, to stem the tide of Communism, and not, as some theorize, to secure oil fields in the South China Sea. Whatever you choose to believe or call the truth, the fact remains that those who served honorably did so for their own reasons, and their deaths and sacrifices, then and now, have everything to do with those reasons, and nothing to do-as they almost never do-with the true motivations and reasons for deciding to make war in the first place.



To say otherwise, in my opinion, is to be incredibly dismissive of the sailors, soldiers, airmen and Marines-it minimizes them, and relegates them to nothing but drones.

I will not forget about the dead, nor those about to die. Nor will Michael and others here. But you're right about the cable networks ignoring them. It'll be old news...and the government won't permit the press to film the coffins as they arrive. Bad for public image, you know.





Regards,





Steve

Nor do I forget them-I pray for all our servicemen and women, living and dead, every day, and the fact that they are in this war-or any other-deeply saddens me in ways that very few other things do.

 

[michaeledward]

As of 8:00 a.m. Monday, May 9, 2005, icasualties.org reports that:

1602 United States Servicemembers have died in Iraq.

 

[Rynocerous]

.


It is truely sad to hear this. I have lost many friends, and am still losing comrades. Let us not forget the fact that we are fellow Americans who wear our uniforms with pride and fight a war that we may not even believe in. That is truly dedication to our job, and our country. Not many people can say that they would stand behind their job even if they were wrong and give their life for their cause.:waah: It is sad but we do it non the less. Take my word for it when we get back we need all the ecouragment we can get. Even if it's a pat on the back, or a thank you, offer to by them a drink, whatever. You may not realize it but we need that reassurment.

Oh and by the way the media can go **** themselves.

Sincerely,

Ryno

 

[rmcrobertson]

What exactly did all these men and women die for? I forget--or is it just that the government never really gave a reason?

 

[Tgace]

Why is it that enemy casualty counts are not a good indicator of combat success, but US casualty figures are supposed to be indicative of failure...:idunno:

 

[Tgace]

While I can agree with you historically and in principle, I’ll point out that many men and a few women died in Viet Nam believing that we were there to protect and free the South Vietnamese people, to stem the tide of Communism, and not, as some theorize, to secure oil fields in the South China Sea. Whatever you choose to believe or call the truth, the fact remains that those who served honorably did so for their own reasons, and their deaths and sacrifices, then and now, have everything to do with those reasons, and nothing to do-as they almost never do-with the true motivations and reasons for deciding to make war in the first place.



To say otherwise, in my opinion, is to be incredibly dismissive of the sailors, soldiers, airmen and Marines-it minimizes them, and relegates them to nothing but drones.

Amen! Name any War that didnt have its "idealistic" side that soldiers die for and its "political/economic" side that governemnts go to war over. Its the way its always been.
:asian:

 

[RandomPhantom700]

Why is it that enemy casualty counts are not a good indicator of combat success, but US casualty figures are supposed to be indicative of failure...:idunno:

Because if there's no valid reason for the conflict in the first place, neither are good indicators. Our own losses just hit closer to home.

 

[rmcrobertson]

1. It doesn't seem to anybody that maybe, just maybe, because soldiers go fight for their own fairly-private resons (the ones John Keegan outlines), and because they are usually kids, that maybe, just maybe, politicians like Bush and Johnson have a sort of--gosh, hate to use the word--responsibility to send them to war only as a last resort, and only when they have facts to support their claims?

2. What were those reasons, again? And how reliable were the facts that Johnson and Bush advanced in support of their claims? I forget.

3. For that matter, I forget--what are the current excuses for going into Iraq?

 

[Rynocerous]

What exactly did all these men and women die for? I forget--or is it just that the government never really gave a reason?

Well if you forget, they died for their country...

They signed up in the Armed Forces knowing full well the chance of going to war. People like yourself questioning what they died for is questioning the soldiers integrity and valor! Soldiers dying is soldiers dying, regardless of the reason. Quite frankly I am getting very sick of hearing we shouldn't be there, and it's all Bush's fault. Whether it is or isn't his fault is besides the point. There are still soldiers over there dying, and all your whining(in general, not pointed at you rmcrobertson) doesn't fix anything.

Sincerely,

Ryan W Guthormsen

 

[OUMoose]

Well if you forget, they died for their country...

They signed up in the Armed Forces knowing full well the chance of going to war. People like yourself questioning what they died for is questioning the soldiers integrity and valor! Soldiers dying is soldiers dying, regardless of the reason. Quite frankly I am getting very sick of hearing we shouldn't be there, and it's all Bush's fault. Whether it is or isn't his fault is besides the point. There are still soldiers over there dying, and all your whining(in general, not pointed at you rmcrobertson) doesn't fix anything.

I have to disagree. No one is questioning any soldier's integrity nor valor. They all have served their country and fullfilled thier oaths to the best of their ability. That should make anyone who knew them proud.

The questioning comes in as to WHY they were sent there. The point of blame is integral to the point at hand. Granted, Joe Schmoe American doesn't want to listen, as he's intoxicated by the interesting cocktail of fearmongering and nationalism served up by our CnC (that's my opinion, btw... you can take it or leave it). Whining here doesn't do much, no, however "whining" to your elected representatives will.

Yes, there are still soldiers in the line of fire that are dying needlessly at this point. Does that make them any less valorous? No.

 

[Makalakumu]

I have to disagree. No one is questioning any soldier's integrity nor valor. They all have served their country and fullfilled thier oaths to the best of their ability. That should make anyone who knew them proud.

The questioning comes in as to WHY they were sent there. The point of blame is integral to the point at hand. Granted, Joe Schmoe American doesn't want to listen, as he's intoxicated by the interesting cocktail of fearmongering and nationalism served up by our CnC (that's my opinion, btw... you can take it or leave it). Whining here doesn't do much, no, however "whining" to your elected representatives will.

Yes, there are still soldiers in the line of fire that are dying needlessly at this point. Does that make them any less valorous? No.

Our soldiers ARE dying for a reason, just not the reasons that the administration has shared with us. It is essential that we all keep that in mind. Iraq is part of a broad strategy to reshape the Middle East...and the reasons for doing this have nothing to do with Terror.

 

[elder999]

What exactly did all these men and women die for? I forget--or is it just that the government never really gave a reason?

Same thing they always die for: each other.

 

[RandomPhantom700]

I'm pretty sure that robertson meant to ask why these men were sent to war in the first place, elder.

 

[michaeledward]

1651 u.s. dead ....5 soldiers dying every two days this month.

Just in case anyone is wondering.