2000 and counting...

[Bob Hubbard]

What are the death and injury rates for American troops in Germany, Japan and South Korea?
How about Afghanistan?
How do they compare to those in Iraq?

US Troop Deployments:
Iraq - 144,000
Germany - 75,603
South Korea - 40,258
Japan - 40,045
Afghanistan - 17,900
* Source Playboy Feb 2005

I still say, while each injury and death is a tragedy, the numbers from a strategic and tactical perspective are acceptable, and not much higher than during peace-time. To date, we have lost less killed and wounded in over 18 months in Iraq, than we did in 24 hours at Normandy, Gettysburg, Sicily, the Philipines or any single major battle during the Korean or Vietnam wars.

Since the War on Terror has generated 1,500+ KIA in the last 18? months, can someone please compare the casulties against the number of Law Enforcement officers killed in the line of duty in the US in the same time period in the War on Crime? To put things in perspective, we also need to know the total number of LEO in the US.

I agree with Mr. Edward in the sence that this was was needless, and the administration criminally wrong to have done it, however I also agree with those who argue the losses are not that great, etc.

Hate the administration for starting it, but, honor those who are there at risk.
I'm now going back to lurking....too much to do, too little time to do it.

 

[Tgace]

Nicely put Bob...and close to my intent in this cluster **** too.

 

[PeachMonkey]

I still say, while each injury and death is a tragedy, the numbers from a strategic and tactical perspective are acceptable, and not much higher than during peace-time.

I think it's entirely appropriate to be dismayed and disgusted at every single tragic American and Iraqi death that's taken place in Iraq subsequent to lies about WMD.

Since the War on Terror has generated 1,500+ KIA in the last 18? months, can someone please compare the casulties against the number of Law Enforcement officers killed in the line of duty in the US in the same time period in the War on Crime? To put things in perspective, we also need to know the total number of LEO in the US.

I've got a better idea: if we're going to extend semi-asinine comparisons of Iraq casualty counts to past wars, to peacetime deployments, and to the United States, let's factor in actual population sizes, and make a realistic comparison between the US and Iraq. (Stolen blatantly from Professor Juan Cole of Informed Comment: http://www.juancole.com)

If the United States were Iraq, over 3000 Americans would have died in aggressive attacks all last week, including those caused by car bombings, machine gun attacks, grenades, and aerial attack. That's more than died in 9/11; that number of Americans would be dying every single week.

If the US were Iraq, the White House and nearby government buildings would be under constant mortar fire and virtually no one in the White House, State Department, or Pentagon would consider it safe to venture outside.

If the US were Iraq, all major television, radio, and newspaper reporters would hide out in their hotels in DC and New York, and would rely on strangers to report by word-of-mouth what was happening anywhere else in the country.

If the US were Iraq, private armies totalling nearly 300,000 would control Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, Salt Lake City, Las Vegas, Denver, and Omaha to the point that local police and US troops couldn't even enter those cities.

If the US were Iraq, the Secretary of State (Aqilah Hashemi) the President (Izzedine Salim) and the Attorney General (Muhammad Baqir al-Hakim) would have all been recently assassinated.

If the US were Iraq, the Air Force would routinely bomb Watts, Flint, Billings, Pueblo, Philadelphia, DC, and other major urban areas to target "criminal gangs" but would, inevitably, also injure and kill civilians with collateral damage.

If the US were Iraq, commerical air traffic would be essentially shut down, and nearly every segment of the interstate highway system would be impassible for all but military convoys without certainty of kidnap, carjacking, or being sprayed by random machine-gun fire.

If the US were Iraq, no one would have electricity for more than 10 hours a day, even in the midst of the summer or winter, and most people for far less.

 

[Tgace]

Nobody is comparing the US to Iraq here...we are comparing the causality rate of US troops in Iraq to that of other conflicts and other events (accidental, training etc.) to see if the issue is truly about the number of casualties or about "other" issues.....apparently the "issue" isnt about what we should accomplish in Iraq now that we are there (right or wrong). And is about grinding political axes.

 

[Tgace]

What is the point of the tally? Is it to say A."we are loosing too many. Get out."...B."we are loosing too many, we need to change our strategy."....or C. "we are loosing too many and its that warmongering, illiterate, republicans fault. See I told you so."

?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I think it's entirely appropriate to be dismayed and disgusted at every single tragic American and Iraqi death that's taken place in Iraq subsequent to lies about WMD.

I agree.

I've got a better idea: if we're going to extend semi-asinine comparisons of Iraq casualty counts to past wars, to peacetime deployments, and to the United States, let's factor in actual population sizes, and make a realistic comparison between the US and Iraq. (Stolen blatantly from Professor Juan Cole of Informed Comment: http://www.juancole.com)

Sorry Peach, but I respectfully disagree. I find Cole to be a sensationalist who is incapable of putting things into real perspective. My opinion, I'm entitled to it, however "asinine" it may be.

If you want to look at those deaths, then please, do. But first, remove all NON-hostile deaths. You know, car accidents, transport crashed, suicide etc, and focus -strictly- on deaths caused by hostile action.

Because blowing ones brains out, flipping a jeep, or having equipment malfunction happens all over the world, regardless of engagement status.

-EVERY- death is a loss. Of life, of love, of potential, of hope and of dreams. Especially when the conflict has been proven to have been avoidable, needless and it's reasons a lie.

BUT! to imply that those 1,500+ lives ended as a direct cause of this conflict is simply put to promote a lie.

Cole and other morons like him will ignore that, and simply lead one to think that all 1,500+ deaths were avoidable.

They were not. Equipment fails. If it didn't fail there, it might have in Germany. Do those lives lost there count any less like is implied? I would certainly hope not.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

What is the point of the tally? Is it to say A."we are loosing too many. Get out."...B."we are loosing too many, we need to change our strategy."....or C. "we are loosing too many and its that warmongering, illiterate, republicans fault. See I told you so."

?

The point of the running score people keep is to point a finger at the corrupt administration running this nation and scream "Murderer" while ignoring any facts or statistics that don't say the same thing.

1,500, or 15,000. They are all just numbers.
I'd rather know who these men and women were, what their dreams were, who they left behind, how they died.

 

[Makalakumu]

The point of the running score people keep is to point a finger at the corrupt administration running this nation and scream "Murderer" while ignoring any facts or statistics that don't say the same thing.

1,500, or 15,000. They are all just numbers.
I'd rather know who these men and women were, what their dreams were, who they left behind, how they died.

While I agree with the latter sentiment, I think that the running total of soldiers killed and the running total of Iraqi casualties (all of them) points a finger at a misuse of our military and the needless waste of so many lives.

As you have said, this conflict could have been avoided and there were peaceful options that the US could have backed before resorting to this. The bottom line is that, this war has a lot more to do with ideology then anything else.

In my opinion, the US military is suppose to defend American. It is not the world's constabulary.

 

[Tgace]

A good article on the nature of War and its relationship to politics....

http://www.grose.us/academic/clausewitz.html

 

[rmcrobertson]

1. Gee, Clausewitz considered war to be the continuation of politics by other means? Why, heckfire. None of us libs ever done knowed thet before...oh wait. That's actually the point; far from identifying any, "clear and present danger," to this country that might have vaguely justified the whole pre-emptive war notion, this Administration simply pushed us into a conflict we didn't have to be in, and apparently saw nothing wrong with trumping up evidence to do so. Why? The extension of its political and ideological purposes abroad.

2. Ya know, one of the diseases of present-day society really is the decline of decent manners. This bit about calling people like Professor Cole, "morons," because we don't agree with them...or claiming that they make stuff up, when we provide no evidence of that being the case, because we don't agree with them. Sheesh. Just repeat after me: "I don't agree. Let me explain why {insert facts, quotes, references to history, or at least logic here}. Instead, I think that {insert explanation of differing views and grounds for that view here}." Instead, though, we get this Michael Savage stuff...I know, I know. Nobody ever listens to him, that's just a liberal piece of propaganda. It's just the product of common sense that leaves anybody repeating his statements, and methods of, "argument," virtually word for word.

3. Good to see the repeat of Joseph Stalin's logic: "One dead is a tragedy. A million is a statistic." Beyond pointing out that one or two or, well, some tens of thousands of people who don't happen to be Americans have died in Iraq during this War, I agree. I too would like to check and see if the families who lost sons, husbands, brothers, sisters, believe that what they lost was lost for a good cause, one in which the President acted out of the best of motives because he had no choice, acted because he had good evidence thatv it was necessary to act, acted because he had the best interests of his country at heart and not for partisan or merely-ideological reasons.

Come on. Let's hear about how we found the WMDs. Or wait....about Hussein's support for Al Quaida. Or, sorry...tell us how this helped catch good old Osama bin Laden. Oops, my bad...about how everybody in Iraq wanted us in there and the streets are lined with flowers. Ohm gosh, there I go being liberal again...remind me what a patriot Mr. Chalabi is...oh heckfire, dammit, about how it's, "mission accomplished." But we're not, "nation-building..." oh no, perish forbid.

Cheap shots? Stuff you've heard before? Absolutely; I agree. But no worse than calling anybody who disagrees with this latest little adventure a traitor or a moron; no worse than the cyncial logic that shrugs and says, "Well, people die."

 

[Tgace]

http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2003/030330-public-opinion01.htm

 

[agatanai atsilahu]

What is the point of the tally? Is it to say A."we are loosing too many. Get out."...B."we are loosing too many, we need to change our strategy."....or C. "we are loosing too many and its that warmongering, illiterate, republicans fault. See I told you so."

?

All things considered I choose D.- We lost too many at #1

 

[RRouuselot]

All things considered I choose D.- We lost too many at #1

Yeah the first person to die on 9-11 was one too many.

 

[agatanai atsilahu]

Agreed. Maybe one day someone will lead us to bring the guilty to justice.

 

[PeachMonkey]

Yeah the first person to die on 9-11 was one too many.

Of course, 9/11 had nothing whatsoever to do with the invasion of Iraq. Which is, after all, the topic of this thread.

 

[RRouuselot]

Of course, 9/11 had nothing whatsoever to do with the invasion of Iraq. Which is, after all, the topic of this thread.

Didn't it?

9-11 was the perfect excuse for G.W. II to invade Iraq.

 

[PeachMonkey]

9-11 was the perfect excuse for G.W. II to invade Iraq.

Oh, sorry... I didn't realize you were being sarcastic earlier. Yes, you're right, 9/11 *was* the perfect excuse to launch the propaganda campaign.

 

[RRouuselot]

Oh, sorry... I didn't realize you were being sarcastic earlier. ........

I wasn't.

 

[michaeledward]

This just in ....

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7203233/

NEW YORK - At least 26 prisoners have died in U.S. custody in Iraq and Afghanistan since 2002 in what Army and Navy investigators have concluded or suspect were acts of criminal homicide, the New York Times reported on Tuesday, citing military officials.

Waiting for the comparison to Army and Navy acts of criminal homicide while Carter was president.

 

[Tgace]

Hmmm..thought the thread was about the tragedy of American deaths and their relevance to the mission in Iraq.

If you want to paint servicemen/women as abusers or torturers I believe there are other threads for that.