100% _ing _un!

[KamonGuy2]

Those who are good at BJJ do not need ANY strength

Obviously there is a degree of muscle power, but you do not need to train to force this on.

The best personal example is when I train with Kevin Chan - the guy is probably a third of my size and uses no strength at all when he rolls with me (if he did I would crush him!!)

A lot of the BJJ moulds VERY well into the wing chun (so much so, that often you cannot distinguish what is wing chun and what is BJJ). If you look at good BJJ based cagefighters like Georges St Pierre, they use very little energy to slip guards etc

Strength can help BJJ, but it is definately not essential.

The leverage (joint locking etc) often comes from the body as opposed to muscles. There is a great clip on youtube of Mauricio teaching a triangle choke and he explains how it is leverage (rather than you trying to crush your opponent with muscles in your legs)

Mook Jong does know his stuff in wing chun, but it is always worth having a look around at other arts (rather than solely watch a youtube clip)

 

[Steve]

Oh , Ok so I'm not permitted to have observations on other martial systems.

As a Wing Chun exponent of 20 years and instructor I do have a little understanding of how power is generated and the strengths and anatomical weaknesses of the human body.

So with that knowledge I can look at other systems and see how the force is genereated and how it is applied , I may not know the exact ins and outs of the technique but I will have a rough idea.

This is an insight you gain from years of Wing Chun training.

The only point I'm making is that you're admitting that you don't know much about BJJ, but then go on to draw some pretty detailed conclusions on the style that I believe are wrong. I didn't go into details only because I didn't want to derail an otherwise very interesting thread.

You obviously are Steve so why dont you chip in to either back up or dismiss what Jin and MJM have said about BJJ so we get your take on BJJ and WC? Rather than just tell someone to shut up??

There must be something in it as Kevin Chan also pairs them together and he knows his onions.

I dont know enough about the subtleties of WC but I feel it is often over complicated to stop people learning the system too quickly and for financial gain in some individuals systems. When I say learn , I mean learn and not master.

See above.

 

[mook jong man]

I am not saying that the two cannot work well together , what I am saying is that you must remain cognisant of the fact that you are either doing one or the other .

The same as I can recognise the fact that I when I am doing Chi Sau most of the opponents force is supported by my skeletal system and absorbed down into my stance.
I am aware that my muscles are relaxed , and I am not using strength.

Once I leave the Chi Sau range and choose to enter into close range vertical grappling the angles of my arms must close to accomodate the proximity of the opponent as we tie up and no doubt my posture will change as well from being upright to more of a leaning posture.

So right away I have lost the optimum angles in my arms , the structure is gone because my back is no longer straight and my vertebrae is no longer stacked on top of each other , and I am supporting a lot of the opponents weight with the muscles of my lower back.

On the ground there will be other issues to contend with as my pivoting is now pretty much rendered useless , Wing Chun is meant to work with the body vertical , two feet planted on the ground , pidgeon toed , spine straight and the thighs acting as shock absorbers , the triangular structure of the legs and the arms focusing force to a point on the centreline approximately the distance of your out stretched arm.

The mechanics of the two systems are different and the ways of using leverage are different there maybe attributes that overlap , but don't kid yourself that you are doing Wing Chun on the ground.

You are doing Wing Chun when you are standing up and in your stance and your arms are in the correct angles , when you are on the ground you are using Bjj.
There is nothing wrong with training in both , but realise you are changing gears when going from one to the other.

Generating and overcoming force in Wing Chun is predicated on the fact that we have both feet on the ground and we are in our stance.

 

[chinaboxer]

I am not saying that the two cannot work well together , what I am saying is that you must remain cognisant of the fact that you are either doing one or the other .

The same as I can recognise the fact that I when I am doing Chi Sau most of the opponents force is supported by my skeletal system and absorbed down into my stance.
I am aware that my muscles are relaxed , and I am not using strength.

Once I leave the Chi Sau range and choose to enter into close range vertical grappling the angles of my arms must close to accomodate the proximity of the opponent as we tie up and no doubt my posture will change as well from being upright to more of a leaning posture.

So right away I have lost the optimum angles in my arms , the structure is gone because my back is no longer straight and my vertebrae is no longer stacked on top of each other , and I am supporting a lot of the opponents weight with the muscles of my lower back.

On the ground there will be other issues to contend with as my pivoting is now pretty much rendered useless , Wing Chun is meant to work with the body vertical , two feet planted on the ground , pidgeon toed , spine straight and the thighs acting as shock absorbers , the triangular structure of the legs and the arms focusing force to a point on the centreline approximately the distance of your out stretched arm.

The mechanics of the two systems are different and the ways of using leverage are different there maybe attributes that overlap , but don't kid yourself that you are doing Wing Chun on the ground.

You are doing Wing Chun when you are standing up and in your stance and your arms are in the correct angles , when you are on the ground you are using Bjj.
There is nothing wrong with training in both , but realise you are changing gears when going from one to the other.

Generating and overcoming force in Wing Chun is predicated on the fact that we have both feet on the ground and we are in our stance.

no no no no no...you are 100% wrong, the EXACT same structure is used standing up or on the ground. The EXACT same shifting, hip movement, body alignment, developing "body structure", spine straight, maintaining space, eating space, elbows in, knees in etc...are used in both standing and on the ground. Wing Chun and BJJ are EXACTLY the same, why? because they are both "concept" based martial arts and follow the EXACT concepts. they both develop "body structure" and gain power from that structure through the elbows, i know this for a fact because i do both and have done both for a very long time.

now with that said, yes, there are MANY grapplers who muscle and speed their way, there are many grapplers who focus on technique rather than structure and concepts. but can't that be said for wing chun practitioners as well? the ONLY way i would be able to convince you is for us to train together, other than that, i know it will be hard to convince you otherwise.

 

[Poor Uke]

the EXACT same structure is used standing up or on the ground.

Nope, first off the way legs and hips are used in BJJ are both structurally and dynamically different to WC. There are some conceptual similarities granted and I kinda agree with what Kamon said but the two are certainly not EXACTLY the same.

chinaboxer have you ever done any BJJ?

 

[mook jong man]

no no no no no...you are 100% wrong, the EXACT same structure is used standing up or on the ground. The EXACT same shifting, hip movement, body alignment, developing "body structure", spine straight, maintaining space, eating space, elbows in, knees in etc...are used in both standing and on the ground. Wing Chun and BJJ are EXACTLY the same, why? because they are both "concept" based martial arts and follow the EXACT concepts. they both develop "body structure" and gain power from that structure through the elbows, i know this for a fact because i do both and have done both for a very long time.

now with that said, yes, there are MANY grapplers who muscle and speed their way, there are many grapplers who focus on technique rather than structure and concepts. but can't that be said for wing chun practitioners as well? the ONLY way i would be able to convince you is for us to train together, other than that, i know it will be hard to convince you otherwise.

We will have to agree to disagree on this issue Chinaboxer I'm afraid , how can it be exactly the same .

The posture might be the same , but the way gravity is now acting on your structure from the vertical to the horizontal is now different , same as if I was submerged in water or in zero gravity. Not to mention the joints are in different positions and angles.

The same optimum angles of the arms that are great when standing up will probably get you arm barred when on the ground and somebody is on top of you.

Another thing is , Wing Chun being a rather practical style don't you think we would have in addition to the other empty hand forms a ground form if everything translated perfectly down to the ground .

We have a form for structure (Sil Lum Tao) a form for movement (Chum Kiu) a form for gaining extra power from the upper body (Bil Gee).

Why not a form designed for the ground , my theory is that the Abbess Ng Mei ( if you believe in that legend and I do ) being a very smart woman realised that the power in Wing Chun is generated from the stance , and in a vertical position with the feet planted firmly on terra firma.

Being a small woman that could not depend on physical mass and strength I imagine she would have done everything in her powers to avoid being grappled and stay on her feet and mobile.

In fact the way Wing Chun generates power in close range with rapid multiple strikes down the centreline seems to be designed to guard against grappling and keeping in that range where we can use our forearms to leverage down on the opponents arms.

The elbows and the arms in general in Wing Chun are only conduits to channel force from the stance and to absorb force from the opponent down into the stance , but once the stance is off the ground and not in that vertical position anymore then it cannot work in the same way.

Superficially on the surface , some things might look the same but as human beings it is in our nature to try and see patterns and connections between things whether they exist or not.

 

[Punchy]

We will have to agree to disagree on this issue Chinaboxer I'm afraid , how can it be exactly the same .

The posture might be the same , but the way gravity is now acting on your structure from the vertical to the horizontal is now different , same as if I was submerged in water or in zero gravity. Not to mention the joints are in different positions and angles.

The same optimum angles of the arms that are great when standing up will probably get you arm barred when on the ground and somebody is on top of you.

Another thing is , Wing Chun being a rather practical style don't you think we would have in addition to the other empty hand forms a ground form if everything translated perfectly down to the ground .

We have a form for structure (Sil Lum Tao) a form for movement (Chum Kiu) a form for gaining extra power from the upper body (Bil Gee).

Why not a form designed for the ground , my theory is that the Abbess Ng Mei ( if you believe in that legend and I do ) being a very smart woman realised that the power in Wing Chun is generated from the stance , and in a vertical position with the feet planted firmly on terra firma.

Being a small woman that could not depend on physical mass and strength I imagine she would have done everything in her powers to avoid being grappled and stay on her feet and mobile.

In fact the way Wing Chun generates power in close range with rapid multiple strikes down the centreline seems to be designed to guard against grappling and keeping in that range where we can use our forearms to leverage down on the opponents arms.

The elbows and the arms in general in Wing Chun are only conduits to channel force from the stance and to absorb force from the opponent down into the stance , but once the stance is off the ground and not in that vertical position anymore then it cannot work in the same way.

Superficially on the surface , some things might look the same but as human beings it is in our nature to try and see patterns and connections between things whether they exist or not.

I think that may be one of the best explanations of Wing Chun I've ever read.

 

[izeqb]

Yes... This is a very interesting thread...

IMO some of THE most important concepts of Wing Chun is:

• Taking / keeping control over the centerline
• Dominating the balance (yours and his)
• Keeping a forward preassure at all times
• Being relaxed (both in mind and body)

 

[Domino]

I too enjoy these threads, lets stick to discussion though. Both styles relate by being calm, relaxed, turning your power on / off and the use of sensitivity.
As I have said before, would love to have seen the result of Master Kwok and Carlson Gracies work together with regards Wing Chun and BJJ hybrid.

"where i said to be very careful what you include into your wing chun or else it will hinder your progress"

Just wanted you to ellaborate please CB.

 

[matsu]

think that may be one of the best explanations of Wing Chun I've ever read.

i was about to write almost the very same thing.
my sifu encourages us to try bjj. we have 4 sifus who are working their way thru the system for the very reason that if you are on the ground you cannot utilise the skills you have when you are doing your wing chun standing up so IF you are stuck on the ground then you need to know what to do to get back to your feet to continue using the wing chun.
the fact that it follows similar principles/leverages angles and sensitivites means that it works so well in conjunction.sifu has often said bjj will improve your wing chun.

this is going to be on of them discussions that will never be resolved because its about applying basic skills and conceptual moves and we all do them differently in deiiferent scenarios. they are not all wrong or right(hang on a min, that was my thread earlier lol)
as long as they follow the concept of wing chun and it works, then its wing chun. it does not matter that we dont agree as long as we have a valid technical explanation for why we do something...and that explanation adheres to wing chun principles....oh ,and it works.

i cant say karate doesnt work because its not wing chun cohesive but it does! that doesnt make karate wrong, it just makes it different.

thanks mook... i,m copy/pasting that and printing it off!
matsu

 

[mook jong man]

think that may be one of the best explanations of Wing Chun I've ever read.

i was about to write almost the very same thing.
my sifu encourages us to try bjj. we have 4 sifus who are working their way thru the system for the very reason that if you are on the ground you cannot utilise the skills you have when you are doing your wing chun standing up so IF you are stuck on the ground then you need to know what to do to get back to your feet to continue using the wing chun.
the fact that it follows similar principles/leverages angles and sensitivites means that it works so well in conjunction.sifu has often said bjj will improve your wing chun.

this is going to be on of them discussions that will never be resolved because its about applying basic skills and conceptual moves and we all do them differently in deiiferent scenarios. they are not all wrong or right(hang on a min, that was my thread earlier lol)
as long as they follow the concept of wing chun and it works, then its wing chun. it does not matter that we dont agree as long as we have a valid technical explanation for why we do something...and that explanation adheres to wing chun principles....oh ,and it works.

i cant say karate doesnt work because its not wing chun cohesive but it does! that doesnt make karate wrong, it just makes it different.

thanks mook... i,m copy/pasting that and printing it off!
matsu

Matsu you can still use your close range striking , its just not going to pack the same wallop as if you were standing up straight and sunk down in your stance.

To compensate for that lack of power that would normally be provided by your body mass moving forward as one integrated unit when standing , on the ground you would have to use upper body torque as in the Bil Gee.

 

[zepedawingchun]

Chinaboxer, you’ve said Wing Chun and BJJ use the same concepts (I tend agree to some extent), but what are they?

And since you've asked it of us, I haven't seen your response to the question. What do you think are the core concepts essentially unique to Wing Chun? What is your your list of concepts?

I think the problem is everyone may have a different idea on what the core concepts that are unique to Wing Chun are? Doesn’t look like we can agree on what those are either.

I think many arts have some of the same concepts as WC, ie, simple, straight line attack, simultaneous block and strike, centerline, building strong structure, body behind the force of a strike. Those concepts (and maybe a couple more) are not unique to Wing Chun. WC just does it differently than the other arts.

Western boxing is a good example. Their punches like jab and cross are pretty simple. They punch straight (as they see it), from where their hands are to your chin. But they execute their punches differently than WC. But it's still effective. Anyone hit by a good jab or a cross will tell you. Boxing pretty much has some of the same concepts as WC does, just executed a different way. And many other arts do the same, identical concepts just done in a different way.

 

[dungeonworks]

think that may be one of the best explanations of Wing Chun I've ever read.

i was about to write almost the very same thing.
my sifu encourages us to try bjj. we have 4 sifus who are working their way thru the system for the very reason that if you are on the ground you cannot utilise the skills you have when you are doing your wing chun standing up so IF you are stuck on the ground then you need to know what to do to get back to your feet to continue using the wing chun.
the fact that it follows similar principles/leverages angles and sensitivites means that it works so well in conjunction.sifu has often said bjj will improve your wing chun.

this is going to be on of them discussions that will never be resolved because its about applying basic skills and conceptual moves and we all do them differently in deiiferent scenarios. they are not all wrong or right(hang on a min, that was my thread earlier lol)
as long as they follow the concept of wing chun and it works, then its wing chun. it does not matter that we dont agree as long as we have a valid technical explanation for why we do something...and that explanation adheres to wing chun principles....oh ,and it works.

i cant say karate doesnt work because its not wing chun cohesive but it does! that doesnt make karate wrong, it just makes it different.

thanks mook... i,m copy/pasting that and printing it off!
matsu

Matsu, if standing up/hold escapes are what you want, also look into wrestling. Greco Roman or Freestyle. The standup portion and takedowns will not mesh (IMVHO) with Wing Chun, but the escaping from the ground will. Wrestling as a whole tends to use more power and relies on strength, with balance at the core, so balance would be the only similar concept.

I know that BJJ teaches patience, leverage, relaxation, but their goal is more for a ground attack....kind of like a crocodile does once he drags ya in the water.

Last night on Spike TV here in the USA, they had a really good documentary on Royce Gracie and showed some footage of the older Gracie's fighting in challenge matches as well as the open door challenge for $10,000 at all Gracie Family dojo's which is still in effect. Cool stuff, and you can get a small glimpse at how their stuff is different than other lineages of BJJ.

 

[mook jong man]

Matsu, if standing up/hold escapes are what you want, also look into wrestling. Greco Roman or Freestyle. The standup portion and takedowns will not mesh (IMVHO) with Wing Chun, but the escaping from the ground will. Wrestling as a whole tends to use more power and relies on strength, with balance at the core, so balance would be the only similar concept.

I know that BJJ teaches patience, leverage, relaxation, but their goal is more for a ground attack....kind of like a crocodile does once he drags ya in the water.

Last night on Spike TV here in the USA, they had a really good documentary on Royce Gracie and showed some footage of the older Gracie's fighting in challenge matches as well as the open door challenge for $10,000 at all Gracie Family dojo's which is still in effect. Cool stuff, and you can get a small glimpse at how their stuff is different than other lineages of BJJ.

Actually I'm quite partial to Mark Hatmaker's material , that old time wrestling had some very nasty stuff in it .
I like the philosophy of just grab something and crank the **** out of it.

 

[dungeonworks]

Actually I'm quite partial to Mark Hatmaker's material , that old time wrestling had some very nasty stuff in it .
I like the philosophy of just grab something and crank the **** out of it.

I have never seen his stuff but a fellow student in my JKD class loves his stuff. There is stuff that can get a release of hold that is just nasty and not of any particular style that I know of. Things I have used in the past prior to martial arts such as fingers in eyes, grab and pull on ears, and one time I got a guy to release a MEAN headlock with a thumb to the...well, umm....."back door" if you will...through jeans, but man he let go out of reaction like a piece of toast shooting out of a toaster! ROTFLMAO!!! I would have surely been unconscious had he not let it go as the world was getting fuzzy.

 

[izeqb]

Western boxing is a good example. Their punches like jab and cross are pretty simple. They punch straight (as they see it), from where their hands are to your chin. But they execute their punches differently than WC. But it's still effective. Anyone hit by a good jab or a cross will tell you. Boxing pretty much has some of the same concepts as WC does, just executed a different way. And many other arts do the same, identical concepts just done in a different way.

You nailed it zepedawingchun...

 

[wtxs]

I think the problem is everyone may have a different idea on what the core concepts that are unique to Wing Chun are? Doesn’t look like we can agree on what those are either.

I think many arts have some of the same concepts as WC, ie, simple, straight line attack, simultaneous block and strike, centerline, building strong structure, body behind the force of a strike. Those concepts (and maybe a couple more) are not unique to Wing Chun. WC just does it differently than the other arts.

Western boxing is a good example. Their punches like jab and cross are pretty simple. They punch straight (as they see it), from where their hands are to your chin. But they execute their punches differently than WC. But it's still effective. Anyone hit by a good jab or a cross will tell you. Boxing pretty much has some of the same concepts as WC does, just executed a different way. And many other arts do the same, identical concepts just done in a different way.

Thanks Zepe, it's hard to pick out an clear voice of reasoning amongst that giant wall of noise some times.

All martial art and fighting methods operates on the same basic concept or principle, that is to effect an favorable outcome from an bad situation, and able to go home to the ones you love.

 

[dungeonworks]

I too enjoy these threads, lets stick to discussion though. Both styles relate by being calm, relaxed, turning your power on / off and the use of sensitivity.
As I have said before, would love to have seen the result of Master Kwok and Carlson Gracies work together with regards Wing Chun and BJJ hybrid.

"where i said to be very careful what you include into your wing chun or else it will hinder your progress"

Just wanted you to ellaborate please CB.

What I gathered from Master Gracie and Master Kwok's comments of their time together is that they were looking more at adapting eachother's
"adaptable similarities" moreso than creating a hybrid style. I have heard many higher level Wing Chunner's state that a good understanding of Wing Chun will make all other arts trained that much better. Heck, I will further my own statement by saying it has improved my posture and economy of motion at work on an automotive assembly line....and I am still a beginner in my own right as I have not a complete understanding of Sil Lim Tao, and I am not hurrying that either (Long story but i am still "Un-Karate'ing and Un-Kickboxing" myself). To a small degree, I even use some Wing Chun principles in hunting deer as well when it comes to movement and economizing my motions and staying rooted in my archery.

I am sure I typed that a bit generally as I am unsure how to articulately describe what I am intending to convey with my post, but hopefully that makes sense on some level. LOL

 

[chinaboxer]

Chinaboxer, you’ve said Wing Chun and BJJ use the same concepts (I tend agree to some extent), but what are they?

And since you've asked it of us, I haven't seen your response to the question. What do you think are the core concepts essentially unique to Wing Chun? What is your your list of concepts?

i definitely have my own opinions, and i haven't kept them a secret at all, my entire website is dedicated to explaining the concepts of wing chun. i will chime in to this discussion because i feel it is such an important subject. but i wanted to get other people's perspectives and opinions first.

i also wanted chunners to think about that fundamental question, "what are the core concepts of wing chun, defined in a very specific manner, that must be adhered to at all times during every movement?" you'd think that it would be simple to answer, from a martial arts method that prides itself on it's simplicity, but as we're seeing, it's not the case.

i also think people here are confusing "techniques" from "concepts", for instance, BJJ and wing chun use many different "techniques", but share exactly the same concepts.

and the comparison of boxing using straight punches (technique), while true, the delivery method is not straight, because the body, shoulders, feet must rotate. so in this instance, we as chunners must DEFINE this concept further. such as "the body structure must always face your opponent's centerline during the delivery of a centerline vertical punch." this is not defined enough, but hopefully you get my point. even using this concept in it's rough state, it already can no longer be compared with traditional boxing or any style that rotates or torques to gain power, it also eliminates any style that does not use a centerline vertical punch (all the time) such as karate or tae kwon do. it's now become more and more unique to _ing _un.

we also have to stop using single descriptive words such as "relaxation" to explain _ing _un concepts, it's too vague! it has to be defined to the point that every chunner "get's it". heck..when people sleep, they are as relaxed as they are going to get, but does that mean everyone can do _ing _un? hopefully everyone understands why i created my website in the first place, to help "define" what _ing _un is, by defining it's core concepts. i think that's probably why the _ing _un community has been largely positive in support of my website, because i take the time every week to "define" the concepts, so that chunners "get it". it's easy to say "don't use your shoulders" to a student, but it's another matter to "show" them how NOT to turn them on in the first place, in detail.

what i'm about to say is going to make some people mad, but i think it's imperative that i say it, remember that this is only MY OPINION. you either know in thorough detail the concepts and adhere to them all the time or you don't. instructor's either "get" the concepts in such a deep manner that they can share them to students, or they can't, so they have to rely on teaching you technique after technique, counter after counter. but then it goes back to what every chunner knows to be true, and that is _ing _un is NOT a style, it is completely and soley a "concept" based art. there is no such thing as "pure" wing chun or "traditional" wing chun or "modified" wing chun...there is ONLY _ing _un concepts that you completely adhere to ALL THE TIME or you don't..that's it. you cannot adhere to a few techniques here and there and adhere to some concepts here and there while contradicting those same concepts at other times, and say you do _ing _un, or say you do "modified" _ing _un. it's an illusion, you're fooling yourself. and that's why i called this post 100% _ing _un...cause i really mean it! you can know every technique, every form, every term, every drill and still not know _ing _un!

this is the point i'm trying to make with this post, as a _ing _un community, to get together to "iron out" these concepts, while defining them in a precise manner to avoid any confusion from other martial arts methods. this IMO is the most important thing for us as a community to do, because the art is "concept" based! so let's roll up our sleeves and figure this out! for now, let's set aside the whole BJJ and _ing _un comparison..let's focus on possibly doing what some of the greatest chunner's failed to do..and that's to simply this wonderful martial art by defining it's deep meaning concepts.

 

[matsu]

Matsu, if standing up/hold escapes are what you want, also look into wrestling. Greco Roman or Freestyle. The standup portion and takedowns will not mesh (IMVHO) with Wing Chun, but the escaping from the ground will. Wrestling as a whole tends to use more power and relies on strength, with balance at the core, so balance would be the only similar concept.

I know that BJJ teaches patience, leverage, relaxation, but their goal is more for a ground attack....kind of like a crocodile does once he drags ya in the water.

Last night on Spike TV here in the USA, they had a really good documentary on Royce Gracie and showed some footage of the older Gracie's fighting in challenge matches as well as the open door challenge for $10,000 at all Gracie Family dojo's which is still in effect. Cool stuff, and you can get a small glimpse at how their stuff is different than other lineages of BJJ.

thanks mate....isnt the bit in bold exactly what we are talking about here?
differences yet again within lineage.
i think sifu wants us to know takedaown defence actual groundwork so we can use our skill whilst on the ground ala mooks post top of this page and to escape if we need to.
as always the continuous advice on here is always so good and very helpful
matsu