What does Efficiency mean to you?

[KPM]

You are playing the same scenario game as KPM. You want me to give you a play by play of how a fight is gonna go? VT doesn't work like that.

Funny how you can chose to apply a double standard when it suits you.

 

[PiedmontChun]

You are playing the same scenario game as KPM. You want me to give you a play by play of how a fight is gonna go? VT doesn't work like that.

No, but consistently pointing out others thoughts as being in error, or as things that you wouldn't do, while never enlightening anyone as to what you actually might do.... is a pretty one-sided discussion. It's analogous to if I went out of my way to tell a co-worker they did something wrong, or that they were lacking key strategy in their thinking, to then just walk away and tell them to go ask the boss how to do it right if they want to. Even if I am correct.... what's the blanking point?

 

[LFJ]

No, but consistently pointing out others thoughts as being in error, or as things that you wouldn't do, while never enlightening anyone as to what you actually might do.... is a pretty one-sided discussion.

I actually explained nothing but my own ideas in my first post on this topic.

People wanted to then lead the discussion into scenarios and precisely what I'd do if if if...

 

[Phobius]

Just ignore this post. I regretted even writing it.

 

[Punchy]

Makes me think of this

Lengthen Your LineBy Joe Hyams
Taken from his book 'ZEN IN THE MARTIAL ARTS'

I first met with Kenpo Karate master Ed Parker in 1952 in a Beverly Hills gym where he rented space. A handsome, six-foot-tall Hawaiian with a thick thatch of black hair, Parker reminded me of a huge tree, with arms like powerful boughs and bare feet rooted firmly on the canvas mat (despite his size, he is a whirlwind in motion).

He was wearing an old, loose-fitting GI, a two-piece cotton uniform worn by most martial artists. The GI, like his black belt, was white in places from fraying and repeated launderings. His face was serene and peaceful, as though he had just completed meditating.

I will remember one of my initial sessions at his dojo in Los Angeles where I was practising Kumite (sparring) with a more skilful opponent. To make up for my lack of knowledge and experience, I tried deceptive, tricky moves that were readily countered. I was outclassed, and Parker watched me get roundly trounced. When the match was over I was dejected. Parker invited me into his small office; a small sparsely furnished room with only a scarred desk and battered chairs. "Why are you so upset? " he asked. "Because I couldn't score." Parker got up from behind the desk and with a piece of chalk drew a line on the floor about five feet long. "How can you make this line shorter?" he asked. "I studied the line and gave him several answers, including cutting the line in many pieces. He shook his head and drew a second line, longer than the first. "Now how does the first line look? "Shorter,'' I said. Parker nodded. "It is always better to improve and strengthen your own line or knowledge than to try and cut your opponent's line."

He accompanied me to the door and added, "Think about what I have just said." I did think about it and studied hard for the next several months, developing greater skills, increasing my knowledge and ability. The next time I went on the mat with the same opponent, he, too, had improved. But I fared far better than I had previously because I had raised my level of knowledge as well as developing my skills.

Not long after, I realised I could apply the principal Parker had taught me to my tennis game. An avid weekend tennis player, I frequently found myself pitted against better players, and when things started to go badly for me on the court I often resorted to trickery - slicing the ball, trying to hit it with a spin, attempting difficult drop shots. Invariably I lost and was frustrated. Instead of trying to better my game I was trying to "cut their line.'' I recognised that I had to play to my best ability rather than to try to worsen my opponent's play. Keeping Parker's advice in my mind, my game soon improved. It has been nearly three decades since then, and in the intervening years Parker has taught his art to thousands of students. Even long after their training they think of him as a good friend - and as a wise and gentle sifu who embodies the martial arts spirit and philosophy.

 

[Danny T]

Obviously a solid VT punch if he were seriously attacking me and sober enough not to just be dropped on the couch so I can leave the room.

Luckily I don't have any violent relatives, but I wouldn't mind cutting ties with an idiot like that.

If it's just drunk Uncle Ed being stupid I wouldn't use VT.

So if the situation was such you would use wc. Thanks, that is what my question was.

In a situation where I'm forced to go barehanded against a knife attack, I'd likely use things from different MAs and tactics designed specifically for that situation by people with experience.

What I wouldn't do is use VT or try to invent some modified VT on the spot. For what? To be able to claim VT has answers for everything and works unarmed against knife attacks?

That's not being realistic. That's being a True Believer, and more than likely a Dead Idiot for thinking you can "kung fu" a knife attacker.

Again thank you for your answer.
What would you recommend to those persons who don't train in other specifically designed MAs or have any experience in such to do in a situation as a knife attack? Forget anything you've learned about wc, no footwork, no angling, no controlling of the line. Maybe just do something natural as long as it isn't wc.

You are playing the same scenario game as KPM. You want me to give you a play by play of how a fight is gonna go? VT doesn't work like that.

Thanks again. No wasn't asking for a play by play and you did respond & answer in the about response about you doing some other MA.

A reason I asked was that the training I've had in wc there is quite a bit of bladed weapon training and defense. I find wc an excellent bladed weapon defensive art 'when' trained for it. (note: I would leave and highly recommend getting away as quickly as possible when confronted by a bladed weapon.) But then that is my advise in any physical confrontation, don't be there.

 

[guy b.]

A reason I asked was that the training I've had in wc there is quite a bit of bladed weapon training and defense. I find wc an excellent bladed weapon defensive art 'when' trained for it. (note: I would leave and highly recommend getting away as quickly as possible when confronted by a bladed weapon.) But then that is my advise in any physical confrontation, don't be there.

What do you emphasise in terms of bladed weapon defense?

 

[Danny T]

What do you emphasise in terms of bladed weapon defense?

Don't get cut or stabbed. ESCAPE.
Evade,
Stun,
Create distance,
Position,
Escape.

IF that isn't possible. Intercept, strike the core. Control the core through the attacking limb, attack the core then escape.

 

[LFJ]

What would you recommend to those persons who don't train in other specifically designed MAs or have any experience in such to do in a situation as a knife attack?

Fortunately, most people will rarely be involved in a knife attack. So there is time to go learn realistic tactics from people with experience training for and dealing with that situation specifically, if that is one of your concerns.

A reason I asked was that the training I've had in wc there is quite a bit of bladed weapon training and defense. I find wc an excellent bladed weapon defensive art 'when' trained for it.

We are knife fighters, when we have knives, and we learn evasive footwork and such that can carry over to empty hand where necessary, but honestly, VT was not designed for empty hand vs knife.

The reality is that there is nothing that will absolutely work. Some things are more functional than others, but given the incredible odds we'd be facing, I wouldn't want to rely on advice from a kung fu class above guys who train for that situation specifically and have tons of experience, like say, military.

 

[Danny T]

Fortunately, most people will rarely be involved in a knife attack. So there is time to go learn realistic tactics from people with experience training for and dealing with that situation specifically, if that is one of your concerns.

A non answer.
Fortunately, most people will rarely be involved in fight at all.

We are knife fighters, when we have knives, and we learn evasive footwork and such that can carry over to empty hand where necessary, but honestly, VT was not designed for empty hand vs knife.

But is an excellent edged weapon defensive art though not originally designed as such.

The reality is that there is nothing that will absolutely work. Some things are more functional than others, but given the incredible odds we'd be facing, I wouldn't want to rely on advice from a kung fu class above guys who train for that situation specifically and have tons of experience, like say, military.

Agreed on the; ...there is nothing that will absolutely work.
Get good training from those who know. Agreed again. WC, when trained well, is an excellent edged weapon defensive art.

Be careful about training with military people. There are far more military trained personnel who have little to no edged weapon experience than that do.

 

[LFJ]

A non answer.
Fortunately, most people will rarely be involved in fight at all.

Giving you plenty of time to get some intelligent training from a good source.

But is an excellent edged weapon defensive art though not originally designed as such.

Which art?

Be careful about training with military people. There are far more military trained personnel who have little to no edged weapon experience than that do.

I'd rather rely on the advice and tactics a country with a lot of experience teaches to people it sends into war, than any traditional kung fu class where they usually can't even get a realistic attack right.

 

[guy b.]

Don't get cut or stabbed. ESCAPE.
Evade,
Stun,
Create distance,
Position,
Escape.

IF that isn't possible. Intercept, strike the core. Control the core through the attacking limb, attack the core then escape.

You prefer to attack the body rather than the hand?

 

[Danny T]

Giving you plenty of time to get some intelligent training from a good source.

But is no help for the wc trained person who is right now in the situation as a knife attack? Why are you skipping around the question or deflecting. What is the person to do? May have to tell the attacker to return at a later date so he/she can have the time to get intelligent training from a good source. If you don't know how to use your wc training vs a blade it is ok. I can accept that. Many wc people are not experienced in using their wc in such a manner. If you have trained edge weapon defense other than wc and you feel you would use that rather than your wc that is all good. So are you meaning the wc person who has no other training and is presently being attacked has nothing within his/her training to be utilized for edged weapon defense?
If so I am glad I don't train your WSL wc.

Which art?

You referenced wc I was responding to your reference.

I'd rather rely on the advice and tactics a country with a lot of experience teaches to people it sends into war, than any traditional kung fu class where they usually can't even get a realistic attack right.

 

[Danny T]

You prefer to attack the body rather than the hand?

Intercept the attack, while counter-attacking the core.

 

[guy b.]

What is the person to do?

Have they done the bjd form or are they still on CK?

I agree with LFJ, it is a bit of a tortured hypothetical. If you are worried about knife attacks then tried and tested ways exist to increase the odds of survival.

 

[LFJ]

So are you meaning the wc person who has no other training and is presently being attacked has nothing within his/her training to be utilized for edged weapon defense?

Maybe they do, maybe they don't. From what I've seen from most WC, they probably don't.

You referenced wc I was responding to your reference.

VT wasn't designed for empty hand vs knife.

Your WC was "originally designed for" that?

I'd like to see what you train, because when I look around at other WC knife defense, it's the typical unrealistic lunge and thrust while they kung fu them.

 

[Danny T]

Maybe they do, maybe they don't. From what I've seen from most WC, they probably don't.



VT wasn't designed for empty hand vs knife.

Your WC was "originally designed for" that?

Ok stay with me here…

You stated: “…but honestly, VT was not designed for empty hand vs knife” my response was: “But is an excellent edged weapon defensive art though not originally designed as such.”

I'd like to see what you train, because when I look around at other WC knife defense, it's the typical unrealistic lunge and thrust while they kung fu them.

I am a long time Pekiti-Tirsia Kali practitioner as well as WC. Pekiti is an edged weapon system with close quarter knife defense and counter-attacking being the main emphasis of the system after learning, footwork, target striking with a stick and empty hands from the longer ranges working to close range and back out. Funny thing is the very first targets learned from stick, sword, knife, to empty hand are the head, the body, the groin, the neck, the eyes and all strikes are into the core.
At the longer ranges the primary target is the hand, secondary is the elbow, tertiary (at long range) is the knee but they are targeted by attacking to the core not by chasing the limb.

I began studying PTK because of my interest in edged weapons. The training began with sticks but with an emphasis on being an edged weapon as well as being an impact weapon. It was very different other than the stance and weight distribution being very similar. The footwork and angles were large moves and of course the range was different. Attacking the core was always emphasized. As I grew and began to learn knife work the more and more the two system’s moves, positions, and applications converged. The principles are for the most part the same. The close range footwork, structures, and applications are very much the same. Tuhon Gaje’ (the heir to the system and man who brought PTK to the US) said when viewing, for the first time, a couple of people training and playing wc he was surprised and want to know how did they know Pekiti and from where did they get it. Not everything is the same for that's for sure but wc when trained as such is an excellent edged weapon art even though it wasn't originally designed with that intent.

 

[guy b.]

I am a long time Pekiti-Tirsia Kali practitioner as well as WC. Pekiti is an edged weapon system with close quarter knife defense and counter-attacking being the main emphasis of the system after learning, footwork, target striking with a stick and empty hands from the longer ranges working to close range and back out.

Would you say that wing chun is more or less useful than PTK as a knife defense method?

 

[geezer]

Another similarity between WC and Pekiti: politics.

 

[wckf92]

Would you say that wing chun is more or less useful than PTK as a knife defense method?

This should prove to be an interesting topic........perhaps this could be its own thread? (i.e. WC / PTK, etc). ?