Zimmerman to face Wrongful Death Civil Trial

[arnisador]

Not a matter of being judged it a matter of the "studies" always cited on this are junk.

People love science when it cures a disease or discovers a planet but otherwise their prejudices override their logic. To simply declare all studies "junk" is an anti-scientific viewpoint.

 

[Steve]

What snapshot judgment did I make? 1st I've never had to spank my kid in public. If it was needed we would go into a bathroom or out to the car. 2nd I'd be glad to see a parent busting a kids butt for being bad its better then the parents that do nothing and allow kids to go nuts in stores or restaurants and disrupt everyone else

Personally, I appreciate that you didn't smack your kid in public, but had the courtesy to take him in the bathroom and smack him in there, or in your car. That's... awesome. Very considerate of you.

Second, if your kid was out of control enough that you had to smack him while you were out... that's a failure, Ballen. I agree that kids should behave in public. That part I agree with. So, when you had to take your kid to the bathroom and smack him, we're just talking about how you reacted to your failure to control your kid.

 

[Steve]

Then let's back off TM's parents.

Yes. Thanks, Arnisador. That's the point. It's fun to judge others, but you guys really don't like being judged. You get very defensive, just like most people do.

 

[Steve]

LOL..I don't get the part where I'm being testy. Disagreeing with you is not testiness...

I'm saying guys, but I'm not thinking you, tgace. Sorry if I'm not being clear. Typing quick.

 

[Tgace]

People love science when it cures a disease or discovers a planet but otherwise their prejudices override their logic. To simply declare all studies "junk" is an anti-scientific viewpoint.

Calling Sociology or Psychology "science" is an illustration of the limits of our language.....

 

[ballen0351]

Then let's back off TM's parents.

I was never on his parents. I commented that by moving him away to Sanford at least they were trying something.

 

[arnisador]

Calling Sociology or Psychology "science" is an illustration of the limits of our language.....

Psych. has some very scientific subdisciplines--exp. psych. folks make the best applied statisticians. Sociology, like poli. sci. and esp. econ., has had a cyclic nature, from data-driven to philosophy-driven and back again. But the longitudinal studies of spanking are behavioral studies and that is sound science.

 

[ballen0351]

People love science when it cures a disease or discovers a planet but otherwise their prejudices override their logic. To simply declare all studies "junk" is an anti-scientific viewpoint.

Well when the total difference between smacked kids and non smacked kids was under a 3 point difference. When the sample size was world wide and included less developed nations where spanking is more common and so is malnourishment and poor education system. When they counted kids from spanking homes to be 3 or more spankings a week and I might spank my kids 3 times a year and have not spanked my older kids in years. Yeah its junk

 

[Tgace]

"Parents wonder why the streams are bitter, when they themselves have poisoned the fountain." -John Locke

 

[ballen0351]

Personally, I appreciate that you didn't smack your kid in public, but had the courtesy to take him in the bathroom and smack him in there, or in your car. That's... awesome. Very considerate of you.

Second, if your kid was out of control enough that you had to smack him while you were out... that's a failure, Ballen. I agree that kids should behave in public. That part I agree with. So, when you had to take your kid to the bathroom and smack him, we're just talking about how you reacted to your failure to control your kid.

Kids are not robots you can't order and they obey. If they misbehave in public its because they choose to break the established rules.

Funny when my kids misbehave its a failure on my part but is not a failure on TMs parents when he was wrong?

 

[Tgace]

So, where do we see this scenario play out? I don't know for sure. But if I can guess, I'd suggest that it happens most often in families where the parents are some combination of divorced (which often leads to each undermining each other to "win" the affection of the child), under educated, living in poverty, or parenting in absentia (whether physically or emotionally).

I overlooked this part previously....

This.....

 

[MJS]

When done "right" I see no problem with spanking. I only had to spank each of my kids all of 1-2 times in their lives and that was when they were at that "cant reason with them" toddler age and when they did something like pull away and try to run across a parking lot...not out of personal anger at them spilling something or wetting the bed......

Exactly! And this was the point I was trying to make.

 

[Steve]

Kids are not robots you can't order and they obey. If they misbehave in public its because they choose to break the established rules.

Huh. Even with the spanking, you're saying that kids might do things they know they shouldn't? But, an exemplary parent like you. Surely that never happened in your family.

Funny when my kids misbehave its a failure on my part but is not a failure on TMs parents when he was wrong?

So, we know you would spank him. We don't know if the Martin's did or didn't. You've acknowledged that they tried to get him out of the environment and change his situation. What do you believe you would have done that TM's parents didn't do? What are you asserting that they failed to do to try and raise a good kid?

 

[MJS]

Okay. I'll try to address things point by point. I think you're on to something, but there are limits to this. First, I would say that it's less about being strict as it is about being consistent.

Being a tyrant is as likely to backfire as not. I dated a judge's daughter in high school. He was as strict and stern as you can imagine. I've already told you what kind of a teenager I was. Why do you think she was dating me (other than my charm and sense of humor?) She was rebelling because her father was so strict it was oppressive.

I believe that most standards are a little fluid. Some are not. Treating every standard and expectation the same, holding the child absolutely accountable, will likely not have the intended results. It will muddy the waters to the point that they cannot distinguish between what is important and what is not important.

Being consistent means having standards that are reasonable while also picking your battles. The specific standards are less important, in my opinion, than the consistent application of those standards by both parents. It's not as much about what you say yes and no to as it is that both parents are a united front.

You're right...being overly strict is just as bad as not being strict enough. No, I don't think that the child should have to walk on egg shells around their parents, fearing that if they breath wrong, they're going to get hit. And I also agree with being consistent.

I have a question. Can you think of some reasons why a parent doesn't have control over his or her kids? Just, if you had to guess, would you say that most of these parents with out of control kids don't know how to parent or don't care how to parent? I get the impression you think that it's more in the "don't care" column. Am I wrong?

I'd say it's a combo of both. Like I said earlier, how do you deal with the issue of parents who don't care, raising kids, who will probably grow up the same way? Maybe some actually do care, but they're literally at wits end, thus these are probably the ones that call the cops. They've probably exhausted all their options, with no success, so they call the cops, in an effort to 'scare' their kid into behaving good. Personally, I don't think that's the answer either, as now you're risking the kid equating the cops as being the 'badguys' just like their parents. I mentioned in another post, my wifes cousin, who would allow their kids to stand on my couch with their shoes on. I'd always give them a chance to make the correction before I said something. Of course, I had the attitude that it was my home, and I don't allow that. Apparently they allow it in their home and saw nothing wrong with it. I guess it all comes down to what the reasonable person would think....just like in the arts relating to self defense. What I think is reasonable probably will be viewed differently by someone else. I'm starting to think there's no solution...lol.

Okay, so let's say you've got a kid who's having trouble. You've removed him from the environment. You're doing some things to try and keep him out of trouble. What are you advocating? Should he have been on lock down? I mean, I'm not sure what you're suggesting. Your son is rebelling. He's doing things you know are not good. You've grounded him and it hasn't worked. What do you do? Ground him until he graduates? Give him a room with a cot and feed him gruel until he's ready to be released into the wild? Send him to military school and wash your hands of him? Seriously. What are you suggesting, because I know real people, good people, with kids who got in with some bad kids, who've been in this very same situation. What would you do?

IMO, I'd say we're advocating a better lifestyle and better behavior. But like you said, there should be consistency with things, and don't wait until things are too far gone. In todays world, there seem to be sources to go to for help, for just about anything. Perhaps a counselor at school would be a good start. I don't think that tossing up your hands and giving up, is a wise thing either. I don't know...maybe trying to explain to the kid that if he/she continues down the path they're on, jail is probably where they'll end up. Of course, if the kid has any serious hope of making anything of themselves, if/when they break out of the 'phase' they're going thru, having a prison record is probably something a potential employer will not want to see.

Out of curiosity, what did the people that you know, do with their kids that were having issues?

Maybe we're doomed and the kids coming up now will truly be the end of America as we know it.

Hopefully that won't be the case.

 

[MJS]

So, now apply this to the snapshot judgments you make toward other parents. If I saw you "smacking" your child in public, I would wonder why you can't control your child. Do you see the point here?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD

You have kids, right? Not sure how old they are, but if they were behaving badly in public, at home, while at someone else's home, etc., how did you handle the situation?

 

[MJS]

We weren't talking about kids using dope, getting arrested or being punks. most of the comments in recent posts were about kids misbehaving in public.

But we were, I believe, comparing TM and his past, which in a way, does relate to anyone else with problem kids, but not yet to the level of TM.

 

[ballen0351]

Huh. Even with the spanking, you're saying that kids might do things they know they shouldn't? But, an exemplary parent like you. Surely that never happened in your family.

You claim we are being testy? Yes even with spanking kids will be kids. You act like you speak and your kids obey and never act up but if mine do Ive done something wrong as a parent. Kids are kids and they do bad stuff sometimes. My kids are better then most, we get compliments all the time on their behavior but even they can act up at times. All kids do. You have your methods and I have mine. that's all there is too it.

So, we know you would spank him. We don't know if the Martin's did or didn't. You've acknowledged that they tried to get him out of the environment and change his situation. What do you believe you would have done that TM's parents didn't do? What are you asserting that they failed to do to try and raise a good kid?

I never asserted anything about Martins parents. No matter what a parent does sometimes kids are just bad. Take my sister and I. We are 3 years apart IM older. Raised in same household by the same parents. I grew up joined the military and then became a police officer, I own my own house, am married, have a pretty good life, own cars, boat, other toys, take my kids on vacations several times a year and take my wife on vacations at least once a year, all in all Im not a burden on society and don't get into trouble. My sister is a drug addict, has several kids by different fathers, lives off the Govt, refuses to work and wen she does its unskilled positions, has no car, only has a house because the Govt gave her grants to buy it and my parents now pay the mortgage on it, she has been arrested, her current boyfriend has several warrants, she is an all around leach on society and my parents. Same home, same rules growing up, 2 out comes.

 

[billc]

Sorry about your sister ballen. That situation is tough on a family.

 

[Steve]

You claim we are being testy? Yes even with spanking kids will be kids. You act like you speak and your kids obey and never act up but if mine do Ive done something wrong as a parent. Kids are kids and they do bad stuff sometimes. My kids are better then most, we get compliments all the time on their behavior but even they can act up at times. All kids do. You have your methods and I have mine. that's all there is too it.

Sorry ballen, if I seem like I'm coming on a little strong. I'm trying to highlight a double standard that seems to be cropping up. I completely understand that kids act out sometimes. Particularly toddlers, who go through predictable stages.

While you might not have been critical of TM's parents, some people here have been. If you go back through the thread, the conversation went from Martin to questions about why Martin's parents didn't do a better job, or why couldn't they control him, which then led to judgments about parents who can't control their kids in general. We seem to now all agree that sometimes, kids get into some bad stuff, and it is not necessarily an indication that the parents are unfit.

The other, I think more important point, is that the reason TM was into some bad stuff had nothing to do with whether he was spanked or not. You happen to spank your kids. I don't. I also receive frequent compliments on my kids. I've said before, I have three, a 17 year old, a 16 year old and a 4 year old. They seldom act out, but as you say, all kids do from time to time. So, it really raises some red flags for me when people say things like, "They obviously didn't spank him enough." Like that's the answer. It's not.

Also, while you might choose to spank your kids, I would guess that you are a pretty consistent parent. An incompetent parent who is spanking a child is likely doing more harm than good.

I never asserted anything about Martins parents. No matter what a parent does sometimes kids are just bad. Take my sister and I. We are 3 years apart IM older. Raised in same household by the same parents. I grew up joined the military and then became a police officer, I own my own house, am married, have a pretty good life, own cars, boat, other toys, take my kids on vacations several times a year and take my wife on vacations at least once a year, all in all Im not a burden on society and don't get into trouble. My sister is a drug addict, has several kids by different fathers, lives off the Govt, refuses to work and wen she does its unskilled positions, has no car, only has a house because the Govt gave her grants to buy it and my parents now pay the mortgage on it, she has been arrested, her current boyfriend has several warrants, she is an all around leach on society and my parents. Same home, same rules growing up, 2 out comes.

Sometimes, kids get into things they shouldn't even when parents do the 'right' things. I'm sorry about your sister. As a tangent, and to make a long story short, my older brother (14 months older) was drinking a case of beer a day, on average, for about 20 years. After having a heart attack at 38 years old, he's been sober now for 5 years, has a good job and is doing really well. So, don't give up. There's always a chance that they can turn things around.

 

[Steve]

You have kids, right? Not sure how old they are, but if they were behaving badly in public, at home, while at someone else's home, etc., how did you handle the situation?

I have three. A 17 year old son, a 16 year old daughter and a 4 year old daughter. How I handled it depended upon what they were doing and how old they were. About the only time my options were limited would be if we were in public, and that's pretty much the easiest to handle. If my toddler doesn't listen, we just leave. Had to do that once.

Some tactics I use extensively with my older kids is positive reinforcement and coaching. I try not to give them answers they don't ask for. Instead, I ask a lot of questions. "Hey, that project is coming up. How's that going? What's your plan? Do you need anything from me?" Or, "Hey, how'd that project go? You were trying X, how'd that work? Did your teacher notice X?" Basically, I just try to ask them the questions that they will eventually need to ask themselves. Frankly, they're pretty awesome, and I don't have too many issues with them. They are not issues when we're out.

With toddlers, they aren't ever issues when we're at someone else's home, because my wife and I are consistent at home. She knows how to behave and I can't recall a time she misbehaved at someone else's house. She's well aware of what we expect.

I'm a big fan of positive reinforcement, deflection and the false dilemmas (basically, giving her two choices, both of which I'm okay with.) If she were to act out, we'd just leave, but honestly, the only time I could conceive of her getting so punchy and bored is if I didn't plan ahead enough. When we're in the store, I give her little jobs to do to keep her busy, and if we're going someplace where she might get bored, I make sure to bring a coloring book, a game or the iPad.