Zimmerman to face Wrongful Death Civil Trial

[MJS]

Martin was given plenty of opportunities to change, but he didn't. Instead of being thrown in JDC for his theft of jewelry, the stolen jewelry was re-classified as "found property," so that it wouldn't be reported as a crime (Baker Act, IIRC). Instead of being sent to JDC for assaulting the bus driver, he was given a light slap on the wrist.



The autopsy report showed liver damage that was consistent with what you see when someone abuses dextromethorphan. While it's relatively harmless in the proper doses (a couple tablespoons of cough syrup at the most), it's also well-known that DM acts as a euphoric drug when given in higher doses, and even hallucination / psychosis.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recreational_use_of_dextromethorphan

It was also known that Martin was actively seeking to make purple drank, and that he had been a user of the concoction.

http://theconservativetreehouse.com...-drug-use-culminates-in-predictable-violence/

Edit: Sorry about the poor attached image. The link shows the image in its proper size, and easy to read.

Somehow I can't help but to think that all of this was 'overlooked' by Al and Jesse.

*Listens closely to the sound of a broom sweeping something under the rug*

 

[granfire]

Poses "aggressively"?

Yes, that is an aggressive pose.
Body Language and all that jazz, not to mention holding his hand out, emulating holding a gun, gangster style....

 

[Steve]

MJS, let's distinguish between what you know and what you are presuming. You know that some parents are ill equipped for the job. You think that it's because they are afraid of their kids. And you think that it's because they don't spank their kids.

You know that SOME kids are out of control. You think that MOST kids are out of control. You think that you know why these kids are out of control.

You know that some kids have no respect for authority. You think that things are worse now than they were 20, 40, or 60 years ago.

Ultimately, though, I don't disagree with much of what you're saying, MJS. I would agree with you that quite a few parents don't have the tools to do a good job of raising their kids. I would agree that some kids have no respect for authority. So, what do we do about that? "We" both as individuals and as society at large. What do you suggest? I have some ideas, and they don't involve mandatory corporal punishment.

 

[Steve]

Yes, that is an aggressive pose.
Body Language and all that jazz, not to mention holding his hand out, emulating holding a gun, gangster style....

Yeah. Aggressive. Like this:

View attachment $lol.jpg

 

[Tgace]

People calling 911 to make their kids behave/go to school or kids calling 911 because dad gave him/her a smack for telling them to "**** off" are almost a weekly event around here......

 

[Grenadier]

Yes, that is an aggressive pose.
Body Language and all that jazz, not to mention holding his hand out, emulating holding a gun, gangster style....

Not to mention, he was actively seeking to acquire firearms:

http://www.cnn.com/2013/05/23/justice/florida-zimmerman-defense

 

[Steve]

People calling 911 to make their kids behave/go to school or kids calling 911 because dad gave him/her a smack for telling them to "**** off" are almost a weekly event around here......

There are about 114 milllion households in the USA. About 25% of the population is under 18 years old. So, again, let's distinguish between what you know and what you think you know. You know that you respond to parenting nightmare "almost weekly." So... are we talking 45 to 50 households per year? That's out of 114 million households.

This may be a pervasive problem, but we don't know that based solely on your anecdotal experience. As one guy out of a relative few who gets to deal with all of these issues, your anecdotal perspective is skewed.

I also want to make it clear that I'm not saying this doesn't happen. I'm saying that, while we can know that it does happen, we don't know really how pervasive the issue is.

Also, I want to say that I have no issues with spanking a kid. I don't do it, and I personally don't see a need for it. It's the last resort for parents who have failed to address the issue in a better way, IMO. But I also understand that there are people who disagree with me, and that parenting is a pass/fail activity, in that a parent can (and will) make all sorts of mistakes, but if the end result is a happy, healthy, productive adult, you pass.

Let's take the scenario you're bringing up. We've got a kid who was "smacked" by the parent. And now the kid is calling 911. Do you really believe that the issue is the "smack?" Do you even think that the real parenting issue happened that day? I don't. I think that you've got a parent or parents who have failed to set clear expectations and hold that child accountable from day one. If I had to guess, the parents are conflict avoidant and the child is spoiled. I'd also guess that the parents don't back each other up and are actively (although perhaps unintentionally) undermining each other's authority with the child.

So, where do we see this scenario play out? I don't know for sure. But if I can guess, I'd suggest that it happens most often in families where the parents are some combination of divorced (which often leads to each undermining each other to "win" the affection of the child), under educated, living in poverty, or parenting in absentia (whether physically or emotionally).

The question is, what do we do about it? Individually or as a society, what do you propose? I'm interested. How do we solve the problem? I will say that "smacking the kid" isn't what I'd call a solution.

 

[MJS]

MJS, let's distinguish between what you know and what you are presuming. You know that some parents are ill equipped for the job. You think that it's because they are afraid of their kids. And you think that it's because they don't spank their kids.

Please don't take me saying that some kids deserve a smack on the ***, as the end all, be all, nor am I saying that that is the only method of discipline. That's not the case at all. My point it simply, that some parents do nothing.

You know that SOME kids are out of control. You think that MOST kids are out of control. You think that you know why these kids are out of control.

Well, to be honest Steve, the above is my opinion. I'm entitled to one, just like you, right? I'm not a child psychiatrist. Are you? Again, I'm simply forming an opinion of things that I've seen, which until I know otherwise, leads me to believe that the parents have no control or discipline their kids.

You know that some kids have no respect for authority. You think that things are worse now than they were 20, 40, or 60 years ago.

True. IMO, there was more respect for authority, ie: parents, the police, years ago, compared to today.

Ultimately, though, I don't disagree with much of what you're saying, MJS. I would agree with you that quite a few parents don't have the tools to do a good job of raising their kids. I would agree that some kids have no respect for authority. So, what do we do about that? "We" both as individuals and as society at large. What do you suggest? I have some ideas, and they don't involve mandatory corporal punishment.

Funny how this discussion about GZ/TM goes to a debate on how various forum members feel about raising their kids. Oh well...anyways...to answer your questions:

I'll respect your decision to disagree with me. We'll have to agree to disagree. What should we do? As I said, giving your kid a smack on the ***, is not the only method. Of course, as I said earlier, if you don't nip things in the bud early, just like with a pet, ie: teaching them right from wrong, then trying to do so, when the kid is 9, 10, 17, etc, is going to be difficult, if not impossible. The downside, as I said before, is that kids learn what they live, so if their parents weren't raised right...well, you can see how the trend will spiral downward.

I"m open to hear your suggestions.

 

[MJS]

People calling 911 to make their kids behave/go to school or kids calling 911 because dad gave him/her a smack for telling them to "**** off" are almost a weekly event around here......

Sad isn't it..lol.

 

[Tgace]

There are about 114 milllion households in the USA. About 25% of the population is under 18 years old. So, again, let's distinguish between what you know and what you think you know. You know that you respond to parenting nightmare "almost weekly." So... are we talking 45 to 50 households per year? That's out of 114 million households.

I don't police the entire USA.....

 

[Steve]

Please don't take me saying that some kids deserve a smack on the ***, as the end all, be all, nor am I saying that that is the only method of discipline. That's not the case at all. My point it simply, that some parents do nothing.

I'm not. Don't worry, MJS. But frankly, for failing parents, corporal punishment is way more likely to make things worse than better.

Well, to be honest Steve, the above is my opinion. I'm entitled to one, just like you, right? I'm not a child psychiatrist. Are you? Again, I'm simply forming an opinion of things that I've seen, which until I know otherwise, leads me to believe that the parents have no control or discipline their kids.

Of course. My point wasn't that your opinion isn't valuable or valid. It's simply to distinguish fact from presumption, and to highlight that things you presume to be fundamentally true are not necessarily so.

True. IMO, there was more respect for authority, ie: parents, the police, years ago, compared to today.

Funny how this discussion about GZ/TM goes to a debate on how various forum members feel about raising their kids.

Agreed, but it stems from some people presuming some things about Martin and Martin's parents that are debatable.

Oh well...anyways...to answer your questions:

I'll respect your decision to disagree with me. We'll have to agree to disagree. What should we do? As I said, giving your kid a smack on the ***, is not the only method. Of course, as I said earlier, if you don't nip things in the bud early, just like with a pet, ie: teaching them right from wrong, then trying to do so, when the kid is 9, 10, 17, etc, is going to be difficult, if not impossible. The downside, as I said before, is that kids learn what they live, so if their parents weren't raised right...well, you can see how the trend will spiral downward.

I"m open to hear your suggestions.

I personally think most parenting issues stem from a few very basic mistakes, but I'm interested in hearing some of the suggestions from those of you who believe that the sky is falling, first. I think that the situation is serious. Parenting is complicated. It's an art, and it requires skill, practice and diligence to do well. I'd LOVE to have a serious conversation on parenting. I don't, however, think that it's dire. But you do. Tgace, does, too. So, what do you guys propose? You guys are quick to point out the seriousness of the situation, but it seems to me to be a lot of judging from the sideline. Tsk, tsking and clucking of the tongue.

 

[Tgace]

Funny how this discussion about GZ/TM goes to a debate on how various forum members feel about raising their kids. Oh well...anyways...to answer your questions:

I think this is one of the great things about the internet...seeing how issues intersect. Some folks like to say "stick to the topic", but IMO theres more to learn in the tangents many times.

 

[Tgace]

It's simply to distinguish fact from presumption, and to highlight that things you presume to be fundamentally true are not necessarily so.

Of course.

Right back at you.....

And who said anything about "dire"? All either of us said is that we see too many (IMO) examples of parents letting their little "angels" run loose and undisciplined. Hell I could go out to the local Walmart right now and video a "mother" walking into the store with her toddler walking in on his own 20 paces behind through a parking lot. Or send you the time and location of the next parent today who decides to lock their child in a car while he/she goes shopping in the mall. And they are not all the same people who call us to send Jr to school when he refuses to go.

What do I "propose"? The idea of "proposing" anything in this country means more laws and there's no way that is going to change anything. What needs to change is our culture and the mentality of "who are you to judge"....a meme that's been overplayed to our detriment IMO. Bad behavior should be recognized as such and not excused.

 

[Steve]

I don't police the entire USA.....

And that's exactly my point. If you would qualify your sweeping generalizations, and distinguish between what you know to be true and what you believe to be true, there would be much less misunderstanding.

 

[Tgace]

And that's exactly my point. If you would qualify your sweeping generalizations, and distinguish between what you know to be true and what you believe to be true, there would be much less misunderstanding.

Did I make a statement that I knew anything as statistical fact? "Sweeping generalizations"?? Is this a discussion or an action panel?

But back to your point...your math is wrong. Are you implying my 40-50 households are all of the examples throughout the USA? You can't compare my 40-50 households to the whole nation. You would have to poll ALL departments within the US.

 

[Steve]

Of course.

Right back at you.....

I try to be very careful to distinguish my opinions from fact. If I fail to do that, I welcome that feedback.

And who said anything about "dire"? All either of us said is that we see too many (IMO) examples of parents letting their little "angels" run loose and undisciplined. Hell I could go out to the local Walmart right now and video a "mother" walking into the store with her toddler walking in on his own 20 paces behind through a parking lot. Or send you the time and location of the next parent today who decides to lock their child in a car while he/she goes shopping in the mall. And they are not all the same people who call us to send Jr to school when he refuses to go.

What do I "propose"? The idea of "proposing" anything in this country means more laws and there's no way that is going to change anything. What needs to change is our culture and the mentality of "who are you to judge"....a meme that's been overplayed to our detriment IMO. Bad behavior should be recognized as such and not excused.

You're touching on the crux of the issue, IMO. There's no shortage of judging others, but there's a decided shortage of doing anything about it.

 

[Steve]

Did I make a statement that I knew anything as statistical fact? "Sweeping generalizations"?? Is this a discussion or an action panel?

But back to your point...your math is wrong. Are you implying my 40-50 households are all of the examples throughout the USA? You can't compare my 40-50 households to the whole nation. You would have to poll ALL departments within the US.

In order to get a sense of how big the problem is, that's one of the things we'd need to do. I agree.

As for what I was implying, it was what you acknowledged, which is that your experience is specific to you and may not represent the country at large. In other words, as you said, you don't police the entire USA.

 

[MJS]

I think this is one of the great things about the internet...seeing how issues intersect. Some folks like to say "stick to the topic", but IMO theres more to learn in the tangents many times.

True, and I suppose that perhaps by discussing this, it may lead us to be able to see a bit deeper, into the life of TM.

 

[ballen0351]

Steve I think the problem is more common than you think. I've worked in 3 different departments three different counties and add my 150 houses each to Tgrace. My wife worked in 2 other jurisdictions and same thing so add her 100 houses. Its impossible to poll every PD in the country but we can look at a few and take a pretty good guess Tgrace and I are in totally different states. Add that to MJS who see the same issues in his jurisdiction which is in another state. There is a real serious issue out here and its only getting worse. When I first started we would get maybe one or two calls like this a month. Now its nightly.
As to the solution maybe it is time to hold parents accontable for their kids action. Your kid sells drugs you go to jail, your kid punches a bus driver you go to jail, your kids out at 3 am breaking into cars or tagging buildings you go to jail. I don't really know a good answer to the issue but its a problem that I believe will lead to Much bigger problems when this generation has kids.

 

[MJS]

I'm not. Don't worry, MJS. But frankly, for failing parents, corporal punishment is way more likely to make things worse than better.

Ok, so we'll forget about that. So, barring any physical contact, as I said, teach them right from wrong, in the beginning. As soon as there's a screw up, correct it! Don't let it slide, do something. Tell them in a firm tone. If it leads to taking away the car, the phone, a toy, whatever, then do it.

Would you agree/disagree with that? Feel free to list any other options that you have.

Of course. My point wasn't that your opinion isn't valuable or valid. It's simply to distinguish fact from presumption, and to highlight that things you presume to be fundamentally true are not necessarily so.

That's correct....my opinion is just that...an opinion. My apologies if thats what it implied. It would seem though, that if someone is allowing their kids to run around like animals, they a) think that behavior is perfectly normal or b) have no control over their kids. And I strongly disagree with that 'kids will be kids' BS. No, sorry, not all kids run around raising hell in a store. Shame that people with kids like that are so blind, and as I said before, should their little wild child get hurt, somehow its the stores fault. Again, I call BS on that. Its the parents fault!

Agreed, but it stems from some people presuming some things about Martin and Martin's parents that are debatable.

I'm sure someone is bound to say that it's impossible to know what your kid is doing all the time. I'll agree that that's partially true, but you should know something. Seems to me...and quite a few others, that TM wasn't the angel he was portrayed to be. Either his parents are clueless, didn't care, thought that what he was doing was normal. The list goes on and on.

I personally think most parenting issues stem from a few very basic mistakes, but I'm interested in hearing some of the suggestions from those of you who believe that the sky is falling, first. I think that the situation is serious. Parenting is complicated. It's an art, and it requires skill, practice and diligence to do well. I'd LOVE to have a serious conversation on parenting. I don't, however, think that it's dire. But you do. Tgace, does, too. So, what do you guys propose? You guys are quick to point out the seriousness of the situation, but it seems to me to be a lot of judging from the sideline. Tsk, tsking and clucking of the tongue.

I gave some suggestions earlier as well as in this thread. Not sure what else I can offer. Sounds like a lot of it is common sense and good judgement....things that sadly, seem to be lacking. Make no mistake about it...I've seen my share of kids out with their parents, in restaurants, in stores, etc, and you'd never know the kid was with them.