You're Walking Down a Dark Alley - Semi Sucker Punch?

[DavyKOTWF]

Wow. Seems so many on the forum just want to argue or try make flaws in the setup, instead of what the original post was for - a learning exercise. For the one responder, the guys suddenly stepped out into view, you didn't have time to scan the area and certainly no time to 'notice their presence long before you got there'. Seems no one has ever been in a dark alley, except JR and me; it's not a stereotype, just real.
Almost everyone missed the main issue, as was the intent of the setup story.
This is like discussing religion. Too many theoretical - tea cup is already full - no inner educated wannabees in the forum.

When a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there...nope, it won't be heard. DKOTWF

I'm out.

 

[drop bear]

I'd pull guard.

 

[drop bear]

As someone already said though. No ones going to come up to you with their guard outside of a movie set. If someone wants to attack they'll come at you swinging. If they want to rob you they'll pull a weapon or pin you to the wall. No ones ever going to come at you like that.

Also that's not good advice at all. If you get into a scrap you call the police first before anyone else can. Firstly you were the one attacked so you have nothing to hide. Second if you don't call them and the other guy does. He gets his story in first and has his friends to back him up. But if you get in first and explain it was self defence you'll be alright most times

I dont call the cops. The less they get involved the better.

And yeah you get the occasional guy who just shapes up at people for no reason. When they have had a bad day or something.

 

[pdg]

Wow. Seems so many on the forum just want to argue or try make flaws in the setup, instead of what the original post was for - a learning exercise. For the one responder, the guys suddenly stepped out into view, you didn't have time to scan the area and certainly no time to 'notice their presence long before you got there'. Seems no one has ever been in a dark alley, except JR and me; it's not a stereotype, just real.
Almost everyone missed the main issue, as was the intent of the setup story.
This is like discussing religion. Too many theoretical - tea cup is already full - no inner educated wannabees in the forum.

When a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there...nope, it won't be heard. DKOTWF

I'm out.

Shame you're so blinkered that a few views (I can only assume including mine) make you flounce out...

As a learning exercise it's quite poor, there's very very little to learn from it.

Nobody knows the intent of these hypothetical people, and from the actual details you gave my reverse hypothesis is just as likely to be true.

I've been through plenty of dark alleys and people have been surprised when I emerged, and the reverse has also happened - nobody got hit...

Thing is, people who live in the real world have no choice but to consider the consequences of their actions - punching someone who puts their hands up is going to lead to trouble.

Other thing, you seem to have a chip on your shoulder already - saying stuff like:

Relocate and be gone. (we were taught this, after a 'hit', be gone; relocate. ) Corrupted courts, judges and lawyers be danged.

Just shows this.

Again, living in the real world - where not everyone is corrupt enough to be out to get you - means there are certain rules of engagement. Punching someone who may well be acting defensively already won't do you any favours.

 

[CB Jones]

Wow. Seems so many on the forum just want to argue or try make flaws in the setup, instead of what the original post was for - a learning exercise. For the one responder, the guys suddenly stepped out into view, you didn't have time to scan the area and certainly no time to 'notice their presence long before you got there'. Seems no one has ever been in a dark alley, except JR and me; it's not a stereotype, just real.
Almost everyone missed the main issue, as was the intent of the setup story.
This is like discussing religion. Too many theoretical - tea cup is already full - no inner educated wannabees in the forum.

When a tree falls in the forest, and no one is there...nope, it won't be heard. DKOTWF

I'm out.

You posed a question and it was answered. Why are you getting upset?

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

You saved me some effort pulling this up

 

[dvcochran]

You got off work late. It's dark outside. You always walk home but know of a shortcut down a little used dark alley. So to save time, you take the shortcut. You've walked the 70 yards and are about to come out on to the well lit sidewalk, just a minute from your home.
A couple of shadowy men step out to block your exit. You, in a loud voice, say "hello fellas, how's it going?", and keep walking confidently toward them and to the lit area. One guy raises his hands in a boxing, on guard position. There are 3 or 4 other people standing by the light pole and are watching what's going down.
Do you sucker punch the guy who went into a fighting stance? (you're close enough by the way, for a quick centerline punch, and know you could do this) Is this legal? Just because the guy posed a fighting stance, is it legal and/or right to just take him out right there? Should you worry about the bystanders saying, all they saw was you taking the first swing or punch? Should you not even worry about what's legal at this point or bystanders and act fast anyway?

A. Why did you stay so close to them that they could reach you with a punch?
B. Why did you stay so close to them that they could reach you with a punch?
C. Why did you stay so close to them that they could reach you with a punch?
Seriously though, it is easier to ask for forgiveness but it could be an unnecessary hassle. Plus, you had time to address them so why didn't you get out of the way and in with the crowd. That doesn't sound like a lot of circumstance to say you were in fear for your life. Granted there were two of them.
The first rule we teach about self defense is to not put yourself in a situation to need it.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I’ve peed in dark alleys before. Staggering out of the bar, and when you’ve got to go, you’ve got to go.

Never got jumped during that though.

1. you were drunk so big Fail on that one lol. If you are staggering then you probably aren't too alert at that point.
2. Which is most important. "No one likes to get pissed on." lol.

 

[dvcochran]

Not a sucker punch.

Individual took an aggressive stance understood by any reasonable person to precede an attack. Giving you justification to defend yourself by striking out.

I don't know. My academy training was anal about the definition of intent. It should be different for a layperson but it would be a judgement call.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The question was posed in the light of this being a JKD sub forum. Where one is taught to intercept violence with a strike and end the fight quickly and efficiently. Just the fact the guy is throwing up his hands in a fighting stance, means the fight it on. I used Semi Sucker Punch in the title, aware it might not be a 100% sucker punch, but could be considered such, but the threatening guy with hands up, would most likely NOT be aware what you could do; that is, take him out with one, quick, unexpected and surprise punch. I mentioned you WERE within close, medium striking distance. Do you or don't you? For me, yes. Then the other guy, probably not the leader, probably won't do anything, you can walk away into the night, keeping an eye on everyone. Relocate and be gone. (we were taught this, after a 'hit', be gone; relocate. ) Corrupted courts, judges and lawyers be danged.

Here are some videos to give you a better idea of how attacks happen

 

[dvcochran]

I’ve peed in dark alleys before. Staggering out of the bar, and when you’ve got to go, you’ve got to go.

Never got jumped during that though.

I have been in California only twice, L.A. to be exact. The closest I have ever been to being "mugged", I was walking down Sunset Strip gawking at everything not really paying attention. There were two of us and I was foolishly walking next to the buildings. A guy came out of an alley and sucker punched me hard enough to crack the bone above my eye. I think he had a small shank in his hand because the cut was really deep and long. I went to my knee but didn't get knocked out. When I stood back up he was half way down the alley running hard. To this day I don't know if he expected it to knock me out so he could roll me, thought I was alone, or was it just plain meanness. Learned some hard lessons that day.

 

[dvcochran]

Here are some videos to give you a better idea of how attacks happen

Trust me, I know; video not needed.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I have been in California only twice, L.A. to be exact. The closest I have ever been to being "mugged", I was walking down Sunset Strip gawking at everything not really paying attention. There were two of us and I was foolishly walking next to the buildings. A guy came out of an alley and sucker punched me hard enough to crack the bone above my eye. I think he had a small shank in his hand because the cut was really deep and long. I went to my knee but didn't get knocked out. When I stood back up he was half way down the alley running hard. To this day I don't know if he expected it to knock me out so he could roll me, thought I was alone, or was it just plain meanness. Learned some hard lessons that day.

Depending on age and area (I don't know sunset strip, not being form there), it may have been a gang initiation thing. Or a dare from friends.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Wow. Seems so many on the forum just want to argue or try make flaws in the setup, instead of what the original post was for - a learning exercise.

You have to look at it from a Self-defense perspective which is to avoid putting ones-self in dangerous situations from the beginning.

For the one responder, the guys suddenly stepped out into view, you didn't have time to scan the area and certainly no time to 'notice their presence long before you got there'.

for me personally I have never been in a situation of where I couldn't scan the area. Even when I walked down dark streets, I give myself extra room when walking by an area where someone can just jump out like that. If I can't scan the area then I don't go down that path.

Like the stuff in this video has a lot of places you can't scan, but more importantly look where you see the majority of the people.

Different city same behavior. You don't see people hanging around alley entrances. I'm not saying that there aren't people in the alley. But I am saying that those type of people are the ones you don't want to meet. Walk up on a drug deal, rape, druggies and other criminals and you may have a really bad night. Even homeless people try to stay out of the alley.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Trust me, I know; video not needed.

My post was for the OP. I wasn't pointing it out to you. Just thought the OP could use some help in creating an accurate scenario.

 

[CB Jones]

I don't know. My academy training was anal about the definition of intent. It should be different for a layperson but it would be a judgement call.

Doesn't matter his intent. Perceiving someone stepping toward you with raised fists in a "Boxer's Stance" as an imminent threat should be considered a reasonable and justifies you to use reasonable force to defend yourself.

 

[axelb]

You setup a specific scenario and don't get the answers you wanted to read?

With that attitude, when you launch a strike at someone in this scenario and do not get the reaction you wanted from the attacker, how are you going to deal with that?

Notice that the stiffest tree is most easily cracked, while the bamboo or willow survives by bending with the wind.

 

[JowGaWolf]

With that attitude, when you launch a strike at someone in this scenario and do not get the reaction you wanted from the attacker, how are you going to deal with that?

This is why my answer stopped at me creating distance. The attacker may be taller than me, bigger than me, stronger than me, he may have boxing / fight experience. I can't assume that a future attacker can't defeat me, I can only take advantages of the opportunities that come up between him jumping at me and attacking.

If the attacker jumps out and punches at me, who is to say he doesn't throw is own flurry of combinations. The trouble with "what if scenarios" for self-defense is that in real life things don't happen as planned. No criminal sets up appointments with there victim and say "I'm going to jump you in a dark alley on x date and x time. Stuff like that comes out of the blue. If people actually expect something like that to happen then, most likely they will do things to prevent it from happening, such as avoiding bad areas, or travel through bad areas in a manner that lowers their risks. I think this is where most people's minds were at, because it was a scenario that many of us actively try to avoid whenever possible (dark alley at night scenarios).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The question was posed in the light of this being a JKD sub forum. Where one is taught to intercept violence with a strike and end the fight quickly and efficiently. Just the fact the guy is throwing up his hands in a fighting stance, means the fight it on. I used Semi Sucker Punch in the title, aware it might not be a 100% sucker punch, but could be considered such, but the threatening guy with hands up, would most likely NOT be aware what you could do; that is, take him out with one, quick, unexpected and surprise punch. I mentioned you WERE within close, medium striking distance. Do you or don't you? For me, yes. Then the other guy, probably not the leader, probably won't do anything, you can walk away into the night, keeping an eye on everyone. Relocate and be gone. (we were taught this, after a 'hit', be gone; relocate. ) Corrupted courts, judges and lawyers be danged.

Given the circumstance, I'd probably strike. If I'm in range to hit him, then there's a person within range who has indicated his intent to hit me. I can probably get my punch in before he realizes I'm a counter-threat. Legally (if the circumstances are known) this is reasonable: a reasonable person would fear being hit by a stranger who, stepping within striking distance, took a fighting stance.

Of course, once you throw that first punch, any or all of the guys in the area might decide to help, and you don't know who they'll help, so a better course of action might have been taken moments earlier, or right before you stepped into the alley.

 

[CB Jones]

I don’t always walk down a dark alley but when I do...I punch everyone