If attacked, should you finish the job? Why or why not?

[Kacey]

First, since you are aware of this situation, take preventative steps; don't go out to your car alone; see if extra lighting can be provided, or possibly even cameras or other deterrents.

Second, I agree with those who say do as much as needed to get the person off you and unable to follow (or at least unable to follow more quickly than you can leave) and then run, screaming loudly. People who attack you do not want attention called to the fact; they want to mug and/or rape you quickly and get away - screaming will prevent that.

Third, remember that every situation is different. No advice you are given will be able to cover every eventuality, and as long as you, and whomever you are protecting, emerge reasonably unhurt, the method you use doesn't matter - it's the results that are important.

 

[mook jong man]

If possible stun and run !

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Same thing applies to defending yourself unarmed as to doing so with a firearm.

There is no "Shooting to kill" and there is no "Shooting to wound", there is *ONLY* Shooting to stop. How do you know when you've stopped them? Why, when they have STOPPED, of course.

I've punched someone and they cease aggressing and/or run? No more is needed. I hit something painful and get away? Okay. Have I knocked them out or thrown them down and they have *stopped*? There ya go. Down, but attempting to get away? They've stopped being a threat. Down and attempting to rise in *MY* direction? *shrug* It's the steel toe solution for 'em, then, before they can continue to attack.

How do you know when you've done enough to stop a threat? When they have STOPPED.

 

[Sukerkin]

I was thinking about the skull being crushed or bones/cartilage going into the brain. Maybe one less thing to worry about. Another one of those kill myths or something that everyone gets so tired of hearing about. Maybe there's a super secret pressure point right under the tip of the nose but just to the right.

This is a point that I think gets dangerously dismissed every time a conversation like this comes along.

All it takes to kill someone, anyone, no matter how big, strong or trained, is one hit to the head.

Yes, it's a fluke event but I don't know how unlikely it is and I'm not willing to take the risk.

It's not accidental that when I had to fight for real I did severe but deliberately targeted damage to my attackers. No strikes to the head, throat or heart and only a couple of very quick techniques. I still feel guilty to this day about the leg break because it came from the side - granted it was the angle I had but I wish it otherwise.

It is your responsibility to defend yourself if attacked - it is not your responsibility to 'punish' your attackers. Do what you need to do to escape; more than that is a compromise of the principles we should be learning along with the physical techniques.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

Do what you got to do. Life and death has no rules the street has no rules do what you have to do and not anymore than that.

 

[Kreth]

Two thoughts:

1. I'm not too thrilled about that bearhug defense. Against a much bigger attacker, instead of pulling him over you, you might pull him down on top of you. Also, this type of defense is typically taught against a static bearhug, when a real attacker is much more likely to use it as a throw.
2. I'm also not a big fan of the "almighty groin kick." Men instinctively protect that part of their body, and unless the setup is perfect, you're much more likely to hit his thigh(s), especially using your shin.

 

[MA-Caver]

Two thoughts:

1. I'm not too thrilled about that bearhug defense. Against a much bigger attacker, instead of pulling him over you, you might pull him down on top of you. Also, this type of defense is typically taught against a static bearhug, when a real attacker is much more likely to use it as a throw.
2. I'm also not a big fan of the "almighty groin kick." Men instinctively protect that part of their body, and unless the setup is perfect, you're much more likely to hit his thigh(s), especially using your shin.

On the bearhug I think it's true that a bigger attacker (even by about 75 pounds) will probably pick up the person/woman and carry her into a wall or the car and try to knock the breath out of them or hit their head to stun them or as you say throw them off balance so they can land on top of them for the same reasons.
Caving and Martial Arts have taught me a sense of balance against "forward falls". One of my legs will automatically go forward to arrest my forward momentum and roll at the same time so that I'll either land on my side or on my back. However with a heavy weight on my back (attacker or back-pack) this is and isn't a good idea. Unless your hip and knee joints are strong you could blow them out and it'd be painful, but if they are, then that sudden stop to forward momentum plus a downward shoulder roll to the ground will put you on your side/back and the attacker/pack takes most of the brunt of the fall. From there it's elbows to the ribs and backwards head butt to hit the nose or chin or mouth... maybe take out a couple of teeth.
If the bear hug doesn't go to ground just yet then raking the shin can work... along with other techniques.

The groin kick is also a target of opportunity rather a catch-all defense. Most (street) attackers (when you think about it for a moment) may have blown out their knees in high school football/basketball games/practices. I say this because some of the "street people" I knew used to talk about their glory days playing football or basketball or whatever sport that they excelled in during school and could've been chosen for a scholarship which would've lead them to the pros and bla bla bla until a knee (or other) injury killed the dream and they can't play anymore. Subsequent drug use/alcoholism and general laziness brings them down to the animal-mentality level of attacking people to get what they want. This was quite a few fellas that I (used to) know.
So I think using the knee as a target may produce better results from a (hard) sidelong kick. Either that or the shins the same way. Taking out their ability to get back up and chase you helps in the get-away. Alibet the knee is just a difficult target as the groin but probably more effective even if they don't feel pain, if that joint is knocked out (again) they're not getting back up easy.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Creating time to get away, is finishing the job.
sean

 

[GBlues]

Here's the first thing that I would do. I would see if I couldn't find another school, that is maybe in a safe neighborhood. If not, you probably like me were told by your parents don't take short cuts, don't walk down dark alleys etc...

Second I was actually asked this question by a young man about 2 years ago. Three guys were talking trash to him and he got out of his car and got the crap kicked out of him and he asked what I would have done. First not gotten out of the car, if not in a car and it's multiple attackers I'd try to run. If I can't run someone is going to die if at all possible. Because here is the simple fact of the matter. One on one that's assault, two or more on one, and it is assault with the intent to kill or do serious bodily injury. Doesn't take 2 or 3 guys or more, to stomp somebody only one.

You do not under any circumstance try to provoke a fight. Once you have done that now you are the aggressor even if it makes you look crazy even if it works. More than likely though you'll have multiple opponents now wanting to stomp a mudhole in ya. You avoid confrontation if at all possible.

When you see trouble coming you walk across the street, but when it follows you..... It's better to be tried by twelve than carried by six!

Now finishing the job can mean alot of things. IT can mean hurting them so that you can run away. Or it might mean that you stomp them until they are begging you to stop they are swearing on there mothers grave that they will never mess with you again. Or it means that they are not moving. One on one this is the case. More than one follow the bold print above.

Respectfully,
Nicholas

 

[kailat]

There is a simple rule to the streets. DON'T be a victim. SURVIVE at all cost. You execute each and every move as if its meant to maim, harm or kill. If your attacked you must and you have to defend yourself. Do not be a coward and stand your ground. You fight till you feel you are safe enough to flee to get help. A warrior does not back down, a warrior does not fear!

If approached in the alley or around the vacinity, you need to use caution and act appropriatley. Carry mace, carry a self defense tool. I bought my girlfriend a cool toy. It looks like a cat, w/ 2 finger holes where the eyes are . The ears are sharp and when you put your fingers in it, the ears are punching toolls. Its awesome for womens self defense.

You should not live in fear, yet also you should not live in such a position where your paranoid about every one you meet or come accross either. Usually a sighn of intelligence and politeness usually will get you a long way. However, do not let your guard down and walk tall, chin up and chest out. walk and carry yourself w/ pride and dignity this signifies strength. Most people seethis and does not attempt to mess w/ these individuals. Simple body language is sometimes a great tool all in itself.

TRAIN HARD, because you fight how you train.. if you train weak, you'll fight weak. Train like a warrior, you'll fight like a warrior

 

[Senjojutsu]

No one who knows me would ever accuse me of being a bleeding-heart liberal!


However since this type of question is always getting repackaged on these message boards, I would say to all the keyboard warriors out there I have updated my response to the new reality of modern living:

Always assume you are being taped on video.

Yes, in the UK it is by Big Brother, in the USA it is probably via the thousands of existing private security cams throughout the land of the free - or via a passer-by’s cell phone/camcorder.

So your self-defense actions are can analyzed over and over for years to come – just as the police force used on the Rodney King video.

I cringe at the thought of (legally) justifying some of the American Kenpo techniques I was taught back in the day – finishing techniques on a prostrate opponent.

I am not saying this is fair.

I am just repeating what several have already said here – if it gets physical - knock him down quickly and escape ASAP!!!

…and hope they photographed you from your good side.
:uhyeah:

 

[MA-Caver]

No one who knows me would ever accuse me of being a bleeding-heart liberal!


However since this type of question is always getting repackaged on these message boards, I would say to all the keyboard warriors out there I have updated my response to the new reality of modern living:

Always assume you are being taped on video.

Yes, in the UK it is by Big Brother, in the USA it is probably via the thousands of existing private security cams throughout the land of the free - or via a passer-by’s cell phone/camcorder.

So your self-defense actions are can analyzed over and over for years to come – just as the police force used on the Rodney King video.

I cringe at the thought of (legally) justifying some of the American Kenpo techniques I was taught back in the day – finishing techniques on a prostrate opponent.

I am not saying this is fair.

I am just repeating what several have already said here – if it gets physical - knock him down quickly and escape ASAP!!!

…and hope they photographed you from your good side.
:uhyeah:

Very good point. You'd think that now-a-days nobody is watching. Before the advent of digital technology the chances of being "filmed" were remote.
Yet a person's body language can reveal much. Holding ones hands up if confronted to say "I'm the victim here, I'm afraid of my life, don't hurt me" then hopefully that gets imprinted on the jury's brain and they'll discuss that while sequestered for deliberation. But that's a hope not a fact.

Whatever moves you make to defend yourself. Make 'em good so they'll be impressive on You Tube. But yeah do 'em and get the hell outta there.

 

[Lynne]

Yesterday, Saturday, I stopped by the dojang to drop off my daughter's tuition check. It was around 12:30 pm. I parked between two buildings again. I saw yet another creepy-looking guy walking down the alley, then he headed into the larger parking lots. He was staring at me; he had his head cranked around and it was obvious. I made eye contact with him to let him know I saw him - not sure if that was a good idea or not but I didn't want him to think he could sneak up on me. I decided to use the front doors of the dojang along the main street instead of using the back doors opening to the alley.

One of my instructors was working behind the counter and I mentioned there was another creepy guy. He asked for a description and said, "He's a pretty nice guy unless you make him mad. He has mental problems."

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Yesterday, Saturday, I stopped by the dojang to drop off my daughter's tuition check. It was around 12:30 pm. I parked between two buildings again. I saw yet another creepy-looking guy walking down the alley, then he headed into the larger parking lots. He was staring at me; he had his head cranked around and it was obvious. I made eye contact with him to let him know I saw him - not sure if that was a good idea or not but I didn't want him to think he could sneak up on me. I decided to use the front doors of the dojang along the main street instead of using the back doors opening to the alley.

One of my instructors was working behind the counter and I mentioned there was another creepy guy. He asked for a description and said, "He's a pretty nice guy unless you make him mad. He has mental problems."

If one of the *instructors* admits to knowing of such a potential problem and that's all the attention he can be bothered to give it, then it sounds to me you need some new instructors

 

[kailat]

ya, I agree. Either you need to find another school if your not comfortable w/ the location of that one. And or if you plan on staying there and living in paranoia going to and from the dojang. BUY A SMALL CALIBER HAND GUN!! Or a large calibur one!! : ) which ever suites your needs I guess. Carry mace or something... I couldn't imagine having to be paranoid someone is going to attack me each and every time i go to and from a place i go to study self defense. BUY SOME GOOD OC SPRAY, carry it in hand as you go to and from... that is the safest bet...

 

[matt.m]

I agree. I walk with a cane and 2 leg braces. If I have to defend myself then I will. However, a point that has been very prevelant is "Do not become the attacker."

For instance......about 20 yrs. ago after a hapkido class we were all eating pizza like wild animals. A big football player for the local university says to my dad the following....."Why don't we fight now." Dad replies with "Hit me." The fella said "Let's go outside." Dad refused.

His reasoning was that if he, the hapkido instructor went outside with the jackass he would be perceived as the aggressor.

I will use an example of my own....I was jumped by my neighbor. I hit him hard enough to do a lot of damage. However, I called the police when he was unconsious. It only took one hit, a soloplex shot.

If I would have kept going I would have been the attacker. There are a couple of women who instruct at our school. One has bad joints and the other is gun shy of violence, for good reason. Our school isn't in a bad part of the city but not too far from. So a male always makes sure the ladies get in their cars before leaving. Try and be accompanied at all times considering you are going down an alley.

 

[Lynne]

If one of the *instructors* admits to knowing of such a potential problem and that's all the attention he can be bothered to give it, then it sounds to me you need some new instructors

There are vagrants in the area. The instructors do work with the police. They've asked them to patrol the area, especially the alley.

To tell you the truth, I know of two that actually came into the dojang. They were physically escorted out by one of the instructors and another student.

 

[terryl965]

There are vagrants in the area. The instructors do work with the police. They've asked them to patrol the area, especially the alley.

To tell you the truth, I know of two that actually came into the dojang. They were physically escorted out by one of the instructors and another student.

At the very least the instructors should be asking other BB or male students to walk out with the lady's. I know I would if my school was having some of these problems.

 

[Lynne]

ya, I agree. Either you need to find another school if your not comfortable w/ the location of that one. And or if you plan on staying there and living in paranoia going to and from the dojang. BUY A SMALL CALIBER HAND GUN!! Or a large calibur one!! : ) which ever suites your needs I guess. Carry mace or something... I couldn't imagine having to be paranoid someone is going to attack me each and every time i go to and from a place i go to study self defense. BUY SOME GOOD OC SPRAY, carry it in hand as you go to and from... that is the safest bet...

I'm not sure if any sprays are legal in NY. I don't think mace is legal. As far as a handgun, I'd never take one into the dojang. We have children waiting for their parents to finish class. We do have lockers but accidents can happen. (I doubt my sa ba nim would allow me to bring a gun into the dojang.) I definitely see your point.

I do think seeing three kooks and/or criminals in 6 weeks is too much too.

The area is so nice during the day - art gallery, florist, wedding gown shop, antiques, restaurants. There is an adult bookstore about a block down though and there are some bars however. I noticed the gangsta types have arrived on the scene. There seems to be a lot of people walking around and muttering to themselves.

I think one change I'm going to make is to go in through the front door versus the alley. People stand in front of the bar and the guy who asked for 84 cents came from street direction but it's got to be safer.

 

[jks9199]

I've been told if attacked, to finish the job. If I were fortunate enough to disable an attacker by kicking him in the groin and maybe being brave enough to punch his nose, I doubt I could throw myself on top of him, pound his nose, and then apply an armbar to break his arm. To be honest, I don't know if I'd even throw that punch after a groin strike. I'd probably try to get his groin and then run like heck. The reason I emphasized him is because men are naturally much stronger than women.

The attacker is going to very motivated, full of adrenalin. He might even be high on methamphetamines and feel absolutely nothing.

I worry about being attacked right outside of my dojang. We have to walk down an alley. Once, I had a guy stand in front of my car in order to stop me. He wanted money. Another night, I was walking to my car and saw someone approaching. Heads up! He stopped about 20 feet away and asked if I had 84 cents.

The area is nice during the day, but becoming increasingly unsafe at night. One of my classmates is a policeman and the police are now patrolling the alley. But they can't be there all the time. In fact, a female classmate has been approached two times recently. She was scared and thought she might have to use her skills.

Oh, we have to pass a bar. Sometimes, people are loitering in the alley behind the bar, drunk as all get out. The other night there were 6 women being rowdy. I was hoping they wouldn't try to pick a fight with me because I was carrying a duffle bag with our school logo plus I was wearing a T-shirt with the school logo. You never know what someone who is high or drunk might do.

Would it be acceptable for a woman being attacked by a man to "finish the job?"

I'm seeing two issues in this thread. The first is the general "how much is too much self defense?" The second is the specific "how does Lynne get to and from the school safely?"

Starting with the specific -- I think that the school needs to accept some responsibility. Whether it's a policy that nobody walks to their car alone (either staff accompanies or groups of students travel together) or coordinating with the neighborhood business and local police to set up an ACTIVE and VISIBLE neighborhood watch or even contracting a guard service... any business has to make it possible for it's customers to get there and leave in reasonable safety. It may not be the best part of town -- but that's no reason for the businesses in the area to tolerate conditions that threaten their clientele.

More generally, self defense consists of stopping the initial attack, doing enough to deter further attack while allowing you to get away. It's not trying to hold the attacker for the police; it's not trying to kill the attacker... It's simply stopping the threat so you can get away or get help. You should practice realistically going to different extents, and choosing how much is necessary under safer conditions so that you can do it in the real world.

There are plenty of threads about this in the General Self Defense area; I'm not going to rehash all of them. I will note that the "It's better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6" is a nifty sound bite -- but I'd rather be right and not tried at all. Legal defense is not cheap...