If attacked, should you finish the job? Why or why not?

[Lynne]

I'm seeing two issues in this thread. The first is the general "how much is too much self defense?" The second is the specific "how does Lynne get to and from the school safely?"

Starting with the specific -- I think that the school needs to accept some responsibility. Whether it's a policy that nobody walks to their car alone (either staff accompanies or groups of students travel together) or coordinating with the neighborhood business and local police to set up an ACTIVE and VISIBLE neighborhood watch or even contracting a guard service... any business has to make it possible for it's customers to get there and leave in reasonable safety. It may not be the best part of town -- but that's no reason for the businesses in the area to tolerate conditions that threaten their clientele.

More generally, self defense consists of stopping the initial attack, doing enough to deter further attack while allowing you to get away. It's not trying to hold the attacker for the police; it's not trying to kill the attacker... It's simply stopping the threat so you can get away or get help. You should practice realistically going to different extents, and choosing how much is necessary under safer conditions so that you can do it in the real world.

There are plenty of threads about this in the General Self Defense area; I'm not going to rehash all of them. I will note that the "It's better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6" is a nifty sound bite -- but I'd rather be right and not tried at all. Legal defense is not cheap...

It's interesting what you say, JKS, about not holding the attacker for the police. My husband and I had discussed this issue and he thought that one should try to hold the attacker for the police after disabling the attacker. I think a lot of people think that's the way to go. They are probably thinking citizen's arrest. Personally, I would not. If I were lucky enough to get someone on the ground, I wouldn't be fishing around for plastic ties. I'd run and call 911 from somewhere.

What you say about legal defense is something to keep in mind as well. I suppose know one knows what they would do in a situation if attacked but training the mind comes into play, too. I think about getting loose if I'm grabbed and then running, not smashing the throat and breaking bones.

 

[Empty Hands]

If one of the *instructors* admits to knowing of such a potential problem and that's all the attention he can be bothered to give it, then it sounds to me you need some new instructors

There's really nothing they could (legally) do. If the guy hasn't done anything overt, all you can do is call the police. They'll move the guy along, and he'll be back in an hour or a day.

 

[SamT]

Two thoughts:

1. I'm not too thrilled about that bearhug defense. Against a much bigger attacker, instead of pulling him over you, you might pull him down on top of you. Also, this type of defense is typically taught against a static bearhug, when a real attacker is much more likely to use it as a throw.
2. I'm also not a big fan of the "almighty groin kick." Men instinctively protect that part of their body, and unless the setup is perfect, you're much more likely to hit his thigh(s), especially using your shin.

1. We're taught to just relax and loosen up, most people then can't hold on. Your body stiffens up when you're grabbed, and then when you immediately just become a piece of wet spaghetti, you most often slide out. From there, you can do a groin stroke or something along those lines, and then get away.

2. Only use that when the situation presents itself, just like every other strike.

 

[Touch Of Death]

If one of the *instructors* admits to knowing of such a potential problem and that's all the attention he can be bothered to give it, then it sounds to me you need some new instructors

What is he supposed to do? Beat up that poor homeless guy?
Sean

 

[jks9199]

It's interesting what you say, JKS, about not holding the attacker for the police. My husband and I had discussed this issue and he thought that one should try to hold the attacker for the police after disabling the attacker. I think a lot of people think that's the way to go. They are probably thinking citizen's arrest. Personally, I would not. If I were lucky enough to get someone on the ground, I wouldn't be fishing around for plastic ties. I'd run and call 911 from somewhere.

What you say about legal defense is something to keep in mind as well. I suppose know one knows what they would do in a situation if attacked but training the mind comes into play, too. I think about getting loose if I'm grabbed and then running, not smashing the throat and breaking bones.

Depending on the exact circumstances, in an off duty (and even in some on-duty situations), I may not try to restrain someone who's attacked me. I do generally have some form of restraint on me -- but, especially, if I'm off duty and out of my jurisdiction, and responsible for others with me (like my wife or my niece), I may simply deal with the threat and skedaddle!

For an ordinary citizen, this applies even more so. You restrain a guy; what are you going to do with him? Do you have any restraints? Can you tie a handcuff knot? (Not that there are a lot of cops who can...) Will you have a hand free to call 911? There's a lot to deal with... and are you ready and willing to be responsible for your attacker's safety? (Someone who's cuffed/bound can't catch themselves if they trip, keep a door from hitting them in the face, etc.)

 

[GBlues]

In my home state, the laws have changed. Like it used to be if a guy has a baseball and is attacking you, you can defend yourself with equal force. It's not that way anymore, point blank if you feel as though your life is in serious danger you can just shoot the guy. Course, you have to prove why you felt that way, but in my mind if it comes to multiple opponents your life is very much in danger.

A kid I knew told me this story about how he and his buddies were out driving around and they came to a stop light, and apparently they had already had words with the guy in the car next to them, so they had some more words. Then things esscalated to the point where they guy got out of his car. So he and his two buddies got out, and started beating the hell out of this poor guy. But, again the throws of combat somebody has to do something stupid, and one of his buddies pulled a knife out and stabbed the guy. He told me, " We didn't want to kill the guy or nothing like that just beat his ***." I mean whethere that story is true or not I couldn't tell ya, could have been a young man, trying to look tough, but does beg the point of how things very quickly can get out of hand.

Thus my quote earlier about the better to be tried by twelve than carried by six. Personally I would rather stand trial for killing a man, than to have him stand trial for killing me, and six men burying me. This is a good discussion on this. Because, depending on how well your trained and on how good you are, maybe you can confidently subdue multiple attackers, without causing any permanent, damage. I'm not. Personally I don't know very many people that are. I know of one, and he's getting old, and even in his youth at his prime he wouldn't play games, do what you got to do to get away, whatever that takes. I agree with all of you guys about getting out of there as soon as possible, but sometimes it's not. Maybe it's best to go with your gut instinct? Are these guys going to try and kill me? If so can I run to safety? If not, can I hurt them bad enough they won't be able to follow?

Thanks for the thread. Been very informative, you are all very knowledgeable, and it is appreciated.

 

[YoungMan]

To me, you respond only until the attacker no longer has the will to fight, and your response must be relative to his attack. You cannot respond to words with violence, a grab with a knockout, or a punch with a killing blow.
Bottom line, my response must be suited to the attack and grounded in a sense of ethics and morality. As soon as it becomes clear he cannot continue the attack I must stop.

 

[Hyper_Shadow]

Always finish the job. If someone has the audacity to put you (or anyone that may be around you) at risk, then they have thrown their humanity away and deserve the full consequences of their own actions.

 

[jks9199]

Always finish the job. If someone has the audacity to put you (or anyone that may be around you) at risk, then they have thrown their humanity away and deserve the full consequences of their own actions.

Without some definition of "finish the job", that's an attitude that could land you in prison for 20 to life in the US. The force used to defend yourself must be reasonable and appropriate to the attack, and you cannot re-engage or otherwise become the attacker. The issues aren't simple, but they've been discussed several times in various threads, especially in General Self Defense.

Again, I counsel a simple approach: deal with the initial attack; do enough damage to ensure that you aren't going to be chased or otherwise won't remain in danger; escape. Doing enough damage may be simply pushing someone down, or it may be snapping their neck, crushing their ribcage, or shooting them. It simply depends on the totality of the circumstances.

 

[MA-Caver]

Always finish the job. If someone has the audacity to put you (or anyone that may be around you) at risk, then they have thrown their humanity away and deserve the full consequences of their own actions.

What jks9199 says is true. Also I feel I must empathize the point that a Martial Artist, a TRUE Martial Artist knows when to stop. Withholding the final blow shows strength of character as well as restraint.
Remember the oath of peace!

Do not hurt where holding is enough, do not wound where hurting is enough, do not maim where wounding is enough do not kill where maiming is enough... the greatest warrior is one who does not need to kill.

:asian:

 

[YoungMan]

If someone attacks me and I respond with more than enough force to nullify it, then I am just as bad as he is. The true mark of a warrior is to say "I could destroy you if I wanted but I won't because I choose not to."

 

[Andy Moynihan]

There's really nothing they could (legally) do. If the guy hasn't done anything overt, all you can do is call the police. They'll move the guy along, and he'll be back in an hour or a day.

See now this is where my cynicism/lack of faith in humanity really shows through--THIS is why, were I to run such a school, there would be no "walk-ins welcome" policy--the time in this society's history when that was doable has passed: New students would show up by appointment only, and there'd be a keycard system for students/visitors *shrug*

 

[YoungMan]

Aaaand, you would most likely go out of business. This isn't 15th Century China.

 

[JustAVisitor]

If your response is disproportionate with the attack, you can be charged for assault. Technically, you have to use the necessary force to get out of trouble and nothing else. Easier said than done for sure.
Note that I have been told by police that if you are a black belt or a higher level (or anything considered equivalent) then you are considered to be a walking weapon. And he said that you have to warn your aggressor before retaliating... (i think that this is really dumb but...).
Is there a thread for 'attack' anecdotes? because i would have a couple of stories to share .

 

[JustAVisitor]

BTW, Lynne, consider not wearing any visible sign that you practice MA if you want to avoid a fight. Plus, you should give yourself the advantage of surprise if fighting can not be avoided.

 

[Lynne]

BTW, Lynne, consider not wearing any visible sign that you practice MA if you want to avoid a fight. Plus, you should give yourself the advantage of surprise if fighting can not be avoided.

That's what I was thinking. Considering that some of the people hanging out at night (or even during daylight hours) are derelicts or have been drinking too much, a shirt with a kicking karate figure on it may be all the provocation they need.

 

[Andy Moynihan]

Aaaand, you would most likely go out of business. This isn't 15th Century China.

That's the point: I wouldn't do it to make a living to begin with because thanks to how the landscape was allowed to develop over the last 30 some odd years, you cannot do so without making it into what it isn't supposed to be.

 

[YoungMan]

Understandable. There has to be a happy medium between turning martial arts into some super exclusive elite club for the few and having an open door policy where everybody and his brother is welcome.

 

[YoungMan]

That's what I was thinking. Considering that some of the people hanging out at night (or even during daylight hours) are derelicts or have been drinking too much, a shirt with a kicking karate figure on it may be all the provocation they need.

It's a question of discretion. Wearing a class t-shirt to the local mall or shopping center? Should not be a problem. Wearing a class t-shirt to the bar or if you know you're going to a bad section of town? Not recommended.

 

[Lynne]

It's a question of discretion. Wearing a class t-shirt to the local mall or shopping center? Should not be a problem. Wearing a class t-shirt to the bar or if you know you're going to a bad section of town? Not recommended.

Don't go to bars, so no problem there. But wearing it at night, after class, walking to my car may not always be the best idea. Some people hang outside at the back entrance to the bar - right where I pass. A few gangsta types or unstable homeless or kooks here and there.