Your Method Of Pivoting & Structure Of Your Bong Sau?

[wingchun100]

I can't say I agree with this at all.
As long as you can maintain balance while you are pivoting there should not be a problem.
Balance is balance , it does not matter whether the body is stationary or rotating , as long as the center of gravity is kept centered.

The only way the stance will be compromised is if the opponent manages to get to the side and you fail to pivot to follow him and face his centerline.

The other issue with not moving the legs is that in trying to generate power you are leaving part of your body mass out of the equation.
A bit hard to use your whole body mass in striking or other actions when your legs aren't coming along for the ride.

One of the principles for generating force in Wing Chun is that in order to generate force , all the force vectors must be going in the same direction you are trying to project your force.

Good response. I also can't agree with this "no pivoting" concept...probably because I can't even begin to visualize how he does his chum kiu without it. I'm going through the steps in my head: you do your double jam sao, then double lan sao...and then you HAVE to pivot. What is he saying, that he turns his body only from the waist up? That will leave you twisted and VERY easy to knock off balance.

 

[Punchy]

One of my earlier lessons in Wing Tsun was that ultimately WT is not about structure, it is about movement. While structure is vastly important, without movement (pivoting, stepping, weight shifting), your structure and balance can be overcome.

Chum Kiu teaches this. The structure you learn from Siu Nim Tao is maintained as you move through space with stepping, pivoting and weight shifting.

futsaowingchun from the looks of his video looks like a pretty strong guy, and maybe the method he describes works for him. But good WC/VT/WT should be able to work for anyone, regardless of their physical strength.

 

[wingchun100]

One of my earlier lessons in Wing Tsun was that ultimately WT is not about structure, it is about movement. While structure is vastly important, without movement (pivoting, stepping, weight shifting), your structure and balance can be overcome.

Chum Kiu teaches this. The structure you learn from Siu Nim Tao is maintained as you move through space with stepping, pivoting and weight shifting.

futsaowingchun from the looks of his video looks like a pretty strong guy, and maybe the method he describes works for him. But good WC/VT/WT should be able to work for anyone, regardless of their physical strength.

I agree. From what I have seen and experienced in wing chun, strength has nothing to do with how hard a wing chun person can hit.

 

[futsaowingchun]

You'd have to post a video of that because I cannot visualize how you would do chum kiu without pivoting.

STARTING AROUND 22 SECONDS YOU CAN SEE THE PIVOT WITHOUT TURNING THE FEET.

 

[mook jong man]

STARTING AROUND 22 SECONDS YOU CAN SEE THE PIVOT WITHOUT TURNING THE FEET.

Mate , that is eventually going to screw both your knees up.
Seriously , my cartilage hurts just watching you do it.

 

[futsaowingchun]

I can't say I agree with this at all.
As long as you can maintain balance while you are pivoting there should not be a problem.
Balance is balance , it does not matter whether the body is stationary or rotating , as long as the center of gravity is kept centered.

The only way the stance will be compromised is if the opponent manages to get to the side and you fail to pivot to follow him and face his centerline.

The other issue with not moving the legs is that in trying to generate power you are leaving part of your body mass out of the equation.
A bit hard to use your whole body mass in striking or other actions when your legs aren't coming along for the ride.

One of the principles for generating force in Wing Chun is that in order to generate force , all the force vectors must be going in the same direction you are trying to project your force.

It's really not about balance..it is more with dealing with being controlled an up rooted..when you turn your hips and feet away from your opponent he can control your hips and shoulder spine and centerline so it makes it difficult for you to turn back..when you keep your legs and hips pointing twords your opponets center of mass its very difficult for him to control your root because your still facing him..the other way you lose your facing..and wont be able to come back to face..also there is no lose in power I twist my body the way you twist a wet towel out. Try it out for your self and see..

 

[futsaowingchun]

You can remain rooted when you pivot if you only turn one foot at a time, shifting your weight from center (both feet rooted) to the side or what now becomes the rear foot in your turned-stance. Our goal is to remain rooted but still springy and yielding. The weight shift in response to heavy pressure is one way we accomplish this goal.

Sifu Alex (below) comes from essentially the same lineage as I do and demonstrates this clearly in the following clip:



How to Do Juen Ma aka Turning Stance | Wing Chun | Howcast

IMHO this not not would I would want to do..you have no facing and no control over your structure...In our lineage this is a no no

 

[geezer]

IMHO this not not would I would want to do..you have no facing and no control over your structure...In our lineage this is a no no

r.e. "Facing" ...in this method you always track your opponent's center. In solo practice (where the student is arbitrarily turing 45 degrees) this may not be apparent. As far as "controlling structure" the body moves as a unit so structure is maintained. By only pivoting the unweighted/front foot, the weighted/rear foot remains firmly rooted, in contrast to other branches that move both feet at the same time.

In fact, I see significant conceptual similarity between your pivoting and what I do, except that like Mook, my old knees scream when they watch that first set of 90 degree body pivots with the feet planted frontally. But then again, I have bad knees (old skiing and grappling injuries). Regardless, thanks for sharing the clip.

 

[Vajramusti]

I can't say I agree with this at all.
As long as you can maintain balance while you are pivoting there should not be a problem.
Balance is balance , it does not matter whether the body is stationary or rotating , as long as the center of gravity is kept centered.

The only way the stance will be compromised is if the opponent manages to get to the side and you fail to pivot to follow him and face his centerline.

The other issue with not moving the legs is that in trying to generate power you are leaving part of your body mass out of the equation.
A bit hard to use your whole body mass in striking or other actions when your legs aren't coming along for the ride.

One of the principles for generating force in Wing Chun is that in order to generate force , all the force vectors must be going in the same direction you are trying to project your force.

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My turning is closer to that of mok jong than to Leung Ting or Fut sao wing chun.
We are talking about development I think. In actuality many kinds of adaptations can occur.

 

[Marnetmar]

In my lineage (Leung Sheung/Kenneth Chung) we pivot by placing our weight on our front knee before we pivot.

 

[geezer]

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My turning is closer to that of mok jong than to Leung Ting or Fut sao wing chun.
We are talking about development I think. In actuality many kinds of adaptations can occur.

Exactly. Maybe if people would consider this for a moment, they wouldn't go on for dozens of posts bickering. Oh wait a minute. I'm not on that forum. Nevermind. LOL

 

[geezer]

In my lineage (Leung Sheung/Kenneth Chung) we pivot by placing our weight on our front knee before we pivot.

Assuming you are starting from Yee Gee Kim Yeung Ma or Character Two stance, would that be the knee that becomes the front? ...or the rear after you pivot?

If its the leg that becomes the front, then you would have a front-weighted stance (unusual in WC).

Since my old sifu favored a back-weighted stance, and he began his training under Leung Sheung, I'm assuming you mean that you weight the leg that becomes your rear leg after you pivot --much the same as I do.

 

[wingchun100]

Dude, I tore the ligaments in MY knees just watching that!


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[futsaowingchun]

Mate , that is eventually going to screw both your knees up.
Seriously , my cartilage hurts just watching you do it.

If done correctly it wont damage your knees or ankles..If you noticed I perform the movement slowly not fast its done as a stretch,slow is the key..In the SLT the wrist is stretched,the hips,knees and ankles in the Chum Kiu.Then continued in Bil Tzu form..Power comes from the elasticity of the tendons and joints. I have been doing this for 32 yrs I have no problem with my joints..

 

[futsaowingchun]

One of my earlier lessons in Wing Tsun was that ultimately WT is not about structure, it is about movement. While structure is vastly important, without movement (pivoting, stepping, weight shifting), your structure and balance can be overcome.

Chum Kiu teaches this. The structure you learn from Siu Nim Tao is maintained as you move through space with stepping, pivoting and weight shifting.

futsaowingchun from the looks of his video looks like a pretty strong guy, and maybe the method he describes works for him. But good WC/VT/WT should be able to work for anyone, regardless of their physical strength.

age


I agree wck should work for everyone..and I teach it differently for each student because everyone has a different body type. Actually,when i started in wck i was just avaerage size guy..

 

[Marnetmar]

Since my old sifu favored a back-weighted stance, and he began his training under Leung Sheung, I'm assuming you mean that you weight the leg that becomes your rear leg after you pivot --much the same as I do.

Yes, this is what I am referring to.

 

[wingchun100]

If done correctly it wont damage your knees or ankles..If you noticed I perform the movement slowly not fast its done as a stretch,slow is the key..In the SLT the wrist is stretched,the hips,knees and ankles in the Chum Kiu.Then continued in Bil Tzu form..Power comes from the elasticity of the tendons and joints. I have been doing this for 32 yrs I have no problem with my joints..

You pivot slowly. Okay, so what if someone is attacking you from your right side? Pivoting slowly won't cut it when someone is rushing at you.

 

[Marnetmar]

I think he's referring to it being done as a stretch in the form, not in application.

 

[wingchun100]

The way you practice is the way you will fight. The forms set up your structure to perform the system. If the structure in forms is bad, then your self-defense will be bad.

 

[geezer]

You pivot slowly. Okay, so what if someone is attacking you from your right side? Pivoting slowly won't cut it when someone is rushing at you.

In my experience, when someone is rushing at you, you tend to move faster. Just because Fut Sao moves at a measured pace in the form doesn't mean he moves slowly in application. I have learned the hard way that assumptions based on appearance can be misleading.

Oh, another thing ...if someone is attacking you suddenly from the side, you don't have to pivot before counter-attacking. In most WC systems we have plenty of lateral attacks (fak sau, side kick, slant thrust kick, etc.) in chum kiu intended for just such situations. I'm sure it's the same for Fut Sao.