Bong Sau & Shoulder problems

[KPM]

KPM, could you link an image or video to see the Feng Sau technique? I'd like to know how to apply it.Thank you!

I don't have a video. But it is essentially a Biu Sau used as a defense with the outer forearm being the contact surface and the elbow bent at 135 degrees. Think of a Bong Sau, but with the fingers of the hand aimed upward at an angle rather than downward at an angle. Feng Sau is essentially the "half way point" between Bong and Biu.

 

[anerlich]

Whatever problems I may have been working towards from the TWC high bon sao kind of faded into insignificance next to the surfing wipeout that gave me one separated A/C joint and the spider guard sweep that did the other.

Steve Maxwell mobility drills and Dr Kirch's "shoulder pain; Its Prevention and its Solution" have got me through nearly 30 years of WC and 18 years of BJJ.

Also, I can't think of a single classmate who had shoulder problems due to overzealous bonning. However, we don't "lift" with the bon or drive the shoulder forward.

 

[Pat M]

Also, I can't think of a single classmate who had shoulder problems due to overzealous bonning. However, we don't "lift" with the bon or drive the shoulder forward.

Hey anerlich,
Surfing wipeout and shoulder injury sounds ugly.

From my limited time with a TWC school (18 months) I would have to agree the Bong is a much more yeilding or redirecting than what I had done before.

Previous shoulder issues for me was all about the shoulder being to far forward as my upper back was lacking strength. This was picked someone treating me.

A good round of air rowing at the gym sorted that out so I put a lot of credence in the keep the shoulders relaxed and back.

 

[Vajramusti]

Hey anerlich,
Surfing wipeout and shoulder injury sounds ugly.

From my limited time with a TWC school (18 months) I would have to agree the Bong is a much more yeilding or redirecting than what I had done before.

Previous shoulder issues for me was all about the shoulder being to far forward as my upper back was lacking strength. This was picked someone treating me.

A good round of air rowing at the gym sorted that out so I put a lot of credence in the keep the shoulders relaxed and back.

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I have had no shoulder problems from wing chun

 

[anerlich]

Previous shoulder issues for me was all about the shoulder being to far forward as my upper back was lacking strength. This was picked someone treating me.

A good round of air rowing at the gym sorted that out so I put a lot of credence in the keep the shoulders relaxed and back.

Interesting. Certainly desk jobs can result in imbalances and poor posture, usually kyphosis. Though Jiu Jitsu is way worse - all that guard work with the head forward. Steve Maxwell showed me some exercises to help remedy this at a couple of seminars.

 

[wingchun100]

The problem I see a lot of beginners have with bong sao is they think it is like a karate-style upward block, with lifting involved. I was asked by my old Sifu to help newbies out from time to time, and what did the trick was teaching them about Wing Chun's "forward intention." We don't want to block all day; we are trying to reach our target. THAT made them start to realize bong sao goes forward, not upward.

 

[Marnetmar]

I don't have a video. But it is essentially a Biu Sau used as a defense with the outer forearm being the contact surface and the elbow bent at 135 degrees. Think of a Bong Sau, but with the fingers of the hand aimed upward at an angle rather than downward at an angle. Feng Sau is essentially the "half way point" between Bong and Biu.

Wait, if I'm picturing this correctly does that mean that most lineages don't use Biu Sau like that? How do most people use it, then? For eye pokes?

I learned something new today.

 

[anerlich]

Wait, if I'm picturing this correctly does that mean that most lineages don't use Biu Sau like that? How do most people use it, then? For eye pokes?

I learned something new today.

I use bil sao like that, though the arm is a straighter than 135 degrees. KPM is taking about a position different from both bil and bon he calls Feng Sau.

 

[KPM]

I use bil sao like that, though the arm is a straighter than 135 degrees. KPM is taking about a position different from both bil and bon he calls Feng Sau.

No, I wouldn't say it was different. Here is my original comment on this thread:

I agree with Danny. In CSL that would be more of a "Feng Sau." Other's I think might call it a "Biu Sau."

It is somewhere between a Bong Sau and a Biu Sau with the elbow straight. I realize that many lineages just consider it a defensive Biu Sau (one that blocks or deflects) as opposed to an offensive Biu Sau (on that strikes). CSL is the only lineage I've come across that gives the technique its own name. Possibly this comes from Yuen Kay Shan Wing Chun. I don't know enough about YSKWC to say for sure. Or Robert Chu may have simply came up with the name himself!

 

[KPM]

Wait, if I'm picturing this correctly does that mean that most lineages don't use Biu Sau like that? How do most people use it, then? For eye pokes?

I learned something new today.

I've been taught that the Biu Sau can be either offensive or defensive. With the elbow bent and deflecting with the forearm it is defensive (essentially what CSL calls a "Feng Sau"). With the elbow relatively straight and striking with the edge of the palm or the fingertips it is offensive.

 

[lansao]

This is a very helpful thread. I've noticed a few variants of the bong sao in my training. I've seen "swimming" the bong sao, wedging the bong sao, and "closing the gate" where we rotate from the base of the middle gate up. I practice the latter and one important note I make when practicing is to not execute the bong sao too quickly and to avoid applying too much force. Stepping off the line of force helps with that and consequently when practicing has helped me avoid shoulder pain. I found wedging useful as a backup although this "force against force," despite the bong sao's inherent deflective properties, can still lead to injury.

The "swimming" (forgive the analogy if offensive) is what I'm most curious to hear about from other lineages. I've found that the downward movement and need to catch the weight of the forearm puts some stress on my exterior deltoid.