Your martial objective?

[Supra Vijai]

Blocking itself while defending an attack, seldom ends the fight and while a block ultimately can contribute to victory blocking itself is contrary to the goal of instantaneous victory. While blocking serves much better that being hit the block only takes up an opportunity to execute a technique that would fulfill the objective. Therefore any movement or technique not forwarding the ultimate goal is interfering with it.

I'm only new to the arts myself but I'd say it depends on how you train your blocks. We go with the mindset that a block is never just a block, it's a strike. If you can "incapacitate" your attacker's arm with a solid block, then that there would be victory as you define it IMO.

I do not train so that I may avoid conflict. I train to end conflicts. ..... And had I been trained in MA then I would not have kept my head down and mouth shut to avoid the conflict like I did.

As mentioned in an earlier post, we actually train to avoid conflict where possible or "become invisible" so to speak. I for one can honestly say I'd much rather get home without having been in a fight unless absolutely necessary - defending myself against an incoming attack - and look "weak" as opposed to getting into a brawl and quite possibly go home limping because someone said something that offended me or what not. Different arts, different people, different approaches I guess.

 

[Danny T]

Objective - something that one's efforts or actions are intended to attain or accomplish.

In training and actual usage of martial skill there can and probably should be several objectives. As I stated, for me, the highest level objective… is instantaneous victory. That is my objective in what I do and train. I don’t train with the goal of making a fight last a longer time than necessary or to kill not matter what. I do train for the contingencies and do acknowledge there is a far stronger likelihood that there will not be instant victory. That does not deter from wanting and attempting to achieve instant victory.

What does it look like? Quite frankly I have never achieved it and not certain it is something I ever will achieve but that does not preclude my striving to.

Can victory be obtained without harm? Yes, I believe it is very possible and have been in situations where the conflict was immediately defused by simply stepping out of the way and then firmly controlling the foolish attempt of a drunk to punch me. The gaining of superiority was, from that point, immediate with no harm to either person.

Harm - any physical damage to the body caused by violence or accident or fracture.

But, as victorious as this was it did not achieve instantaneous victory due to the first movement was to step out of the way. It was from there that victory came. My objective is to be able to obtain the victory directly rather than the usage of time and energy to step to the side. Would that have been the same victory against an angry, jealous person whose perception were that I was attempting to dance with his girl or of some bad person attempting to rob me at gun point? I think not.

“True master must include the option of compassion yet still allows for effortless instantaneous victory with minimal damage.”

I apologize this should have read, True mastery must…

“And what would the true master’s conditions for victory be?”

I think that would be something different for the individual masters. (that which I am not) For me victory would be - a successful ending of a struggle or contest, a gaining of superiority in any struggle or competition.

With thoughtful consideration victory, I’m certain, would be different for all individuals and situations.

I'm only new to the arts myself but I'd say it depends on how you train your blocks. We go with the mindset that a block is never just a block, it's a strike. If you can "incapacitate" your attacker's arm with a solid block, then that there would be victory as you define it IMO.

I agree completely with this if the block is a strike then the movement is exactly the concept I was attempting to convey. That movement would be in line toward the achievement of instantaneous victory.

 

[Cirdan]

Danny.. you make some sense there but it seems you wrap something very simple in a lot of nice and complicated words for some reason.

For instance, while a soldier in the infantry might have high ideals like serving his country, preserve world peace etc, his job is killing and mutilation. The rifle he carries was designed with one objective; the killing of humans.

Now, my main art is Wado Karate, the empty handed way of peace. Most who stick with the art come to regard the highest level attainable as when you no longer have to defend yourself and are at peace. Yet there is no doubt the art itself is designed to inflict extreme harm, every single move is designed to end a fight and applied at the highest level take lives.

This is a yin/yang thing, also shown in the Wado symbol with the dove encircling the fist. By being able to extinguish life you may never have to do so. If you will, simplified this is the martial skill`s objective vs the philosophical/personal objective.

 

[ap Oweyn]

I think blocking has to fit within your objective if you say (as you did in your example) that deterring a drunk and establishing superiority counts as an instant victory. If evading their swing and catching their arm counts as "instant," why doesn't blocking?

And what makes it instant? In my limited experience, this would be followed by a fair amount of talking him down, extricating yourself from the situation, etc. Just doesn't seem that instant to me.

 

[mook jong man]

My martial objective is

CRUSH , KILL , DESTROY

 

[Touch Of Death]

What is the highest level objective with-in the framework of your martial skill if it were that it had to be utilized?

Perhaps this has already been said, but the highest level in our system is to acheiveve the ability to handle a greater and greater kind of threat; so, as beginners may start with the ability to handle 10% of the possible threats of physical confrontations. The belt levels are clear examples of where a person might be in their training, but stamina, wisdom, timing, experience, fitness: (mental; physical; emotional; perceptual; spiritual) all, also play a role in acheiving higher and higher percentages.
Sean

 

[Josh Oakley]

How do you achieve an instant victory without doing harm then? You said a block doesn't contribute to instant victory. Presumably the same is true of evasion, restraints, and the like. So, in concrete terms, what would instantaneous victory without harm look like?

I pulled a knife on a guy once and he ran away. Does that count?

 

[ap Oweyn]

I pulled a knife on a guy once and he ran away. Does that count?

Seems like it should, yeah

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

What is the highest level objective with-in the framework of your martial skill if it were that it had to be utilized?

Protection of self and family, and of myself, both from an actual assailant and from other less direct threats, such as loss of quality of life due to the aging process.

Look at Jhoon Rhee; he has a very high quality of life at a fairly advanced age. There are 'enemies' to defend against other than just bad-guys.

Daniel

 

[sgtmac_46]

What is the highest level objective with-in the framework of your martial skill if it were that it had to be utilized?

For me the objective is simple.......overcome and subdue my opponent(s) as quickly and efficiently as possible with the least amount of injury TO ME as possible using whatever methods are necessary.

 

[xfighter88]

Extinguish life.

Hey, you asked. There are numerous others but the highest one, there it is.

Snuffed out like a candle. Poof:btg:

 

[xfighter88]

I understand the training of the sword is to kill. Within your training with the sword if you had to utilize your martial skill, for whatever reason, you would go get a sword and kill? Or, is there some other objective? I would like to think killing may be the final outcome of reaching your highest objective if need be. I hope your highest level objective in simply to kill. What if the bad guy is just attempting to intimidate you or is a foolish young person doing or saying foolish things?

Just a few thoughts.

Then you wouldn't need to use your "martial" skill. You would use your logical brain to decide that they are not worth your time. It is my beleif that the whole purpose of martial training is to learn how to defend yourself. It is only in recent history that the main focus has been on the art/sport side.

 

[xfighter88]

I understand the training of the sword is to kill. Within your training with the sword if you had to utilize your martial skill, for whatever reason, you would go get a sword and kill? Or, is there some other objective? I would like to think killing may be the final outcome of reaching your highest objective if need be. I hope your highest level objective in simply to kill. What if the bad guy is just attempting to intimidate you or is a foolish young person doing or saying foolish things?

Just a few thoughts.

I do not train so that I may avoid conflict. I train to end conflicts. I train so that I may completely overwhelm my opponent. I am 6'6" and 250 lbs. People who chose conflict with me have generally been rather large of stature themselves. (or Napoleanic, and that is a psychological discussion). Case in point: In my twenties I worked as a crab fisherman along the west coast. One season I worked the deck with a 6'4" 365lb ex Fresno State mid-linebacker whose neck was bigger around than my quads. After a particularly long stretch, maybe 70 hours of picking pots, no exaggeration, I began to physically waiver. He looked at me and said, "If you don't pick it up I'm gonna beat your ***." I believed him. I train to fight men like him. I train to never suffer the fear I felt that sleep depped day. And had I been trained in MA then I would not have kept my head down and mouth shut to avoid the conflict like I did.

I work in law enforcement and I have bounced at clubs and worked security at lots of concerts. I have had lots of competition experience in traditional martial arts and the cage. I am 6' and 215#. I am not really affraid of anyone, but if I can avoid a physical confrontation by keeping my mouth shut or giving away my seat at the bar to some loud mouth drunk I will. Don't let ego get you into trouble. People don't pick fights that they think they will lose. As big as you are I would bet anyone messing with you would be armed or larger than you are. It's not worth it just to say you are a tough guy. Not to mention the potential legal pitfalls you would encounter. Like it or not if you hurt somone and you are a big guy, then people will judge you way more harshy than they should.

 

[MJS]

MJS,

What does effectively defend mean to you at your level of martial skill?

Sorry, missed this post.

Effective means producing an intended result. For those that are focusing on SD in their training, it means to me, to come up with the most effective way of defending yourself, to reach your desired goal, which I'd imagine would be to survive the encounter.

During our training, we'll most likely learn alot of material. While learning all this stuff, we will or should, start to see things that are more effective than others. If our goal is to reach point D, there are things that we could do that'll require us to take a longer route to reach that goal and others that'll be shorter. For me, I like to focus on the simplest, most effective things, to effectively defend myself.