Your Fighting Tip

[elder999]

Going to weigh in here, against my better judgement. I’m not so sure that Mz1 isn’t one of young Alex’s (Zenjael’s) alters-like his ex-girlfriend, just another sliver of his multiple personality disorder-or, at least, part of his personality disorder. What leads me to this? Posts like this:

I've only trained in BJJ (by Japanese Judokas) and Danzan Ryu Jujutsu so how could I possibly know what "randori" means. And years of MA traditions doesn't automatically makes it effective. Some of it is for show, like a 540 degrees tornado kick or something. I'm sure it can hurt someone, but go ahead, try it in a real fight. This is the point.

Since I’ve trained in BJJ a little, but trained in judo since I was 11, and I’ve also trained on more than one occasion with Danzan Ryu jujutsu folks, and trained in jujutsu myself, I have to say that, frankly, I don’t see how you could be trained “by Japanese Judokas,” or in Danzan ryu jujutsu, and not have some idea of what “randori” means, since both arts use the term.

Hell, in this context, I’m not so sure that Kano didn’t invent the term. :lfao:

Anyway....all this noise about training methodologies, gloves or not, gear or not, contact or not, MMA or not, is just that: noise, and I’m going to impart the one tip that I think counts the most, in any context-strategy or tactics, training methodology, and high vs. low vs. don’t use the same technique more than five times be damned. BTW, Zenjael, “Five?” Really?? Where’d ya come up with that one? If you can hit a guy with five uppercuts in a row, go ahead and do so-it’s probably three too many if the first two landed, anyway...:lfao:

First, a couple of stories.

When I was a 14 year old kid in boarding school, I had a friend whose younger sister-all of 11 or 12-was really, really, really hip for her age. They lived in Manhattan, and at the age of 11, she successfully fended off a mugging/attempted rape. How ? Well, a guy grabbed her and tried to drag her into a basement entry below the sidewalk-you can picture the kind-and she instantly froze up and said, Oh God. Please don’t let me kill again.
He must have believed her, because the guy let go of her, and away she ran. :lfao:

Yet another, that some here have probably heard. Since it’s not my story, I’ll leave the names and particulars out. A pretty well known traditional martial arts instructor in Colorado was hosting his teacher from Japan for some seminars. His teacher-at that point a fairly elderly individual-was challenged to resist the awesome ground and pound skills of an MMA fighter at the seminar. His teacher acquiesced, and when the young man took him down, proceeded to choke him out with the lace he’d surreptitiously removed from his shoe. :lfao:

And, of course, there are countless stories of trained and untrained people disarming gunmen, or people with knives, or fighting off superior numbers-of late, there’s the story of the Gurkha on the train.....

Bottom line, though, what it comes down to:

What am I willing to do? Whatever it takes.

Will I prevail? I will, or die trying

Call it a combination of resolve and intent, or call it mindset-call it whatever you like, but if these qualities aren’t trained and developed, then all the strategy, tactics, skills and attributes developed by whatever sort of training one is engaged in, traditional or otherwise, is just dancing. (BTW, for another tip, ala Mr. Lawson’s post, nothing beats dancing-as in ballroom dancing: cha-cha, waltz, two step, foxtrot, etc.-for establishing some critical movement skills needed for hand to hand combat.)

When I was mugged all those years ago on the subway, well, I’d gotten my pen ready as soon as I saw those young men. Fact is, in my mind, I’d killed all three of them of a couple of times before they made their move. Sure, I handed over my Rolex, and my throwdown wallet (a New York necessity, really) but when they told that kid to cut me, I put my pen in his neck, several times. So many things stick out from that incident for me, but the one that I have carried since then is the way his companions flinched when I looked at them, after sticking the pen in his neck the second or third time, and the way they ran. I’ve never been able to do it in the mirror and see for myself, but over the years I’ve given people “the look,” that look, and it’s never failed me. If I give that look (and I can feel it on my face, I just don't know what it looks like-except maybe that I want to kill someone) and say, "Sit down and shut up," well, that's usually what people do. If I don't say anything and just hit them, they pretty much go down. If they've come at me with bad intent, and there's any talking involved, they usually change their minds......if they have any sense, I guess. :lol:

Attitude. Intention. Resolve.

Mindset. It's what I mean when I say "Keep your knife sharp."

Sure, technique and strategy are important-that’s why I’d practiced using the pen, and why I’d slipped it into my sleeve as soon as those boys showed up on the platform-but mindset carries the day, whether it’s in the dojo, in a tournament, full contact or points, MMA or life and death on the streets.

 

[Aiki Lee]

Ok, let's do this thing.

edit: apparently the quote feature is beyond my mortal abilities and I keep screwing it up. So Mz1's comments are in red

Mz1
"Show me where I said that I'd always assume someone on the street to automatically be an untrained slob. You completely made this up."

"Again? Show me where I said this, otherwise it's the second time that you made up lies."

Ok here's an example of why I don't think you understand how to effectively argue something. Originally you made some comment around the lines of "that might work against an untrained/drunken slob, but not someone trained."
Those of us who commented on it were basically saying, "we treat every opponent as competent and dangerous"; somehow that go turned around into you thinking we were accusing you of thinking you assume the attacker is incompetent. That's not what we were saying. We are saying (or at least I am anyway) that any skill we practice is meant to work against someone actively trying to hurt you and you always assume that person is competent. So no one is accusing you of saying anything about assuming the opposite. Not quite sure how you picked that out honestly.

Mz1
"How is trying to knock someone out in the cage/ring, not a real fight?"

"Real fight" may be a poor choice of words then. What I am talking about is a non-competitive fight, i.e. a fight where one does not try to just defeat their opponent but seriously hurt him or her.
　

Mz1
"You obviously have not fought anyone trained nor experienced then because your last sentence just tells me that you fought these untrained slobs that I was talking about. And it's not even correct. You just described one type of fighting style, counterfighting. Not all "Cagey Guys" are counterfighters."

Again my use of the term "Cagey" is meant to describe the mentality found in competitive fighting. It's a necessary mentality for the sport, but doesn't work well in most SD situations. The "Cagey" mentality is not ment to be inflammatory towards cage fighters; hell my brother is a cage fighter. The idea is that when you are competing, whether in the ring, cage, or a bar cause the person is too egocentric to just leave, a "cagey" fighter looks to gauge his opponent to provoke action he can counter. It's not a bad thing in competition, but SD doesn't really apply here because if the guy is bobbing and weaving then I'm leaving. If there is no attack and the guy is just waiting for you to come fight with him then it is not self-defense. There is a lack of intent to commit serious harm.


Mz1
"I've only trained in BJJ (by Japanese Judokas) and Danzan Ryu Jujutsu so how could I possibly know what "randori" means. And years of MA traditions doesn't automatically makes it effective. Some of it is for show, like a 540 degrees tornado kick or something. I'm sure it can hurt someone, but go ahead, try it in a real fight. This is the point."

If you know about randori, then you know TMA have methods for pressure testing their skills. Now, not all schools do this and I think it is a very serious component to training. It is necessary to actually know if you can do what you believe you are being trained to do.
And nothing I do is for show. The XMA type thing you are describing is not martial arts; it's a dance routine. No one arguing with you is involved with that nonsense as far as i know. Of course flashy techniques are unreliable, but no one is talking about flashy techniques. You have no actual point here because you are arguing against a strawman.

Mz1

"My point has always been that this technique is highly risky, yields less reward as opposed to elbowing or punching them in the temple at this position and therefore, a waste of time. This is what the early UFC showed us when it pitted TMA vs. TMA.Early UFC's weeded out all of these flashy ninja strikes and dispelled their validity in a real fight. And UFC 1-4 allowed all strikes including those to the groin, throat, eyes, etc. Only eye gouging, fish-hooking and biting were not allowed, but did NOT disqualify a fighter. They were only fined $1000 per incident....therefore could still win a fight through biting or such. The total purse was around $60,000 for that day, so that's at least 60 incidents of being able to use eye gouges or biting and break even."

In sparring and competition one takes less risks than they do in SD or a fight that potentially could lead to death. In a real SD situation where your well-being is threatened, proper action requires you to take a risk, not taking that risk for fear of injury or whatever results sloppy technique which results in failing the action attempted. I don't see how you feel the tactic I'm advocating is more risky than what you advocate here. It's quite the opposite actually, but I'll explain why down below.


Mz1

"The problem with your fighting theory is that it's just a theory. You've only practiced it through choreographed sparring and not when your opponent is trying to knock you out."

Where to begin with this? Ok first, the "choreographed sparring" is called kata in Japanese martial arts. Yes you know what is about to happen (most of the time), but the attacker really should be trying to hurt you during the drill. It's has to have intent. Now after that, you do randori training which I should not have to explain why that is applicable to actual non-competitive fighting due to all your experience with Japanese Brazillian Jujutsuka and what not.

Mz1
"You complain that the cage may be too big, thus giving the MMA room to make distance, thus, you have it all planned out in your mind that this is how it must happen, in a tight space or something."

Are you kidding me? Sport matches have wide spaces without hazardous objects to be aware of. Even if you had to resort to physical SD in a large area, say a parking lot, there is still a ton of stuff that you need to be aware of like curbs, cars, other people, glass on the ground, yadda, yadda, yadda. If you are out and about and someone wants to hurt you (not fight you, but hurt you), it's likely there will be crap everywhere you have to account for. If you are confronted in a wide open space you have room to escape.
Or brag about how awesome you are and get cracked over the head with a beer bottle by his friends around the corner, whatever you prefer.

Mz1

"Are you trying to tell me that knocking someone out or choking them unconscious doesn't immediately end the threat whether it be in the cage/ring, street, prison, deserted island, etc.?"

No. You've missed the point. The threat in competition is a different kind of threat than in a non-competitive fight. In competition, the threat is being hit, knocked out, choked out, submitted, and "losing". In non-competitive fights the threat is more severe so the mentality of the situation is different. In non-competitive fighting the threats are serious injury, risk of being maimed or killed, legal action, and ahost of other things one does not consider in competition.
Of course a competitive fighter could be maimed or seriously injured in a fight, but the point is that he or she does not expect it to be likely. Refs are involved to stop such things before they occur, so fighters don't enter the ring thinking they could be permanently disabled when they leave.


Mz1

"And the reason both fighters are going back and forth for 3-12 rounds, usually w/o anyone getting KO'ed or submitted and it goes to the judges' card is obviously because both opponents are trained fighters that are equally matched in both size and skill. These are 2 well tuned athletes (usually), not some SD guy vs. a loudmouth drunk at a bar. It's not easy to KO someone who's equally skilled."

The reason a sport fight last so long is because it is actually a string of multiple confrontations broken up throughout the match. Look at it, fighter's square off, size each other up, and bait for an opportunity to capitalize on. When someone sees a moment they quickly weigh the options of whether or not to go in. If they hesitate they have to wait for the next opportunity. If they go for it and it works they gain the upper hand until the other guy sees his chance to get out of it.
Now, stay with me here, cause this next part is crucial.
If the guy getting beaten on starts successfully defending a sport fighter will back off to avoid being countered and begin a new engagement. this is where the string of multple confrontations comes into play. they start the whole thing all over again.
BUT! In non-competitive fighting, if they person being beaten on starts successfully defending the fight, the aggressor will change his position and keep attacking anyway because he is committed to the attack. His goal is to hurt, injure, or kill and ceasing the attack is not an option for him if these are his goals. He does not think of idea that the guy will possibly counter, because as a rule people don't pick fights with other people who can beat them. Predators attack people who they believe are easy targets.
So in non-competitive fighting, the intial aggressor does not think of needing defense, or else he wouldn't have attacked in the first place.
Even if two people fighting in a non-competitive manner are both highly skilled the fight doesn't last long. To think that a fight between highly skilled opponenets would last more than a fight between a few undisciplined goons is pure movie nonsense. It's actually the opposite. The more skilled someone is the more likely he or she is to recognize the instant he or she can take the initiative to attack. In this kind of fight, both opponents must enter in the fight with a sense of abandonment, or else they will hesitate and be struck or thrown or stabbed by the other person. At best you could expect maybe one possible counter (if they are both aware of each other's training backgrounds). If a physical confrontation lasts more than a few seconds then it is about ego, or no one involved has a clue what they are doing.
　

Mz1
"Yet you think that you can just walk up to a trained sports fighter like Mike Tyson and poke him in the eyes?"

I know this is a tounge in cheek type of statement and meant to be rhetorical, but I'm goign to answer it anyway. So, honestly? It depends how I go about it. If he observes me as a threat then, no, I'm probably going to be eating my own teeth if I just up an try to gouge his eyes.
But if I could set it up properly, then sure. He may be a skilled boxer and I'd be a fool to meet him in a boxing ring, but invincible he aint. No one is unbeatable. The best warrior in the world could be felled by a bumbling idiot if the circumstances were right. Martial training is about stacking the odds as best you can in your favor. So, yes. i could do it if I approached it tactically.
I can't wait to see if you turn this into a misrepresentation of me thinking I could "beat up" Mike Tyson.



Mz1
"Put any toughguy on the streets into the cage/ring vs. a real fighter and it's usually going to be a bloodbath. UFC 1-4 already proved that TMA got destroyed pretty handily, which birthed the new generation of MMA."

I doubt it would be a bloodbath. Some blood? Sure, but no ref is going to let someone get majorly injured. You see, there are things called rules. Because of these rules, anyone not familiar with the competitive fighting scene is going to lose (as long as they play by those rules).
Now I'm not saying MMA guys can't break rules or don't break rules or can't win in a "no holds barred" type of thing. What I'm saying is that when you train for a particular environment, you tend to think in terms of that environment. You see, all martial training is designed with a particular environment. Most koryu don't have a lot of groundfighting, because they would sooner stab you to death once on the ground. Silat has a lot of really low postures, because the ground in their area is very slippery and rocky a lot of the time and they expect to fall at some point. MMA as it is now is the accumulation of what aspects of TMA work best within the confines of the rules. None of them are intrinsically better than the others, they aim to be applicable for the environement in which they were created.

　
Mz1
"Obviously you've never fought in the ring/cage, which is why you have no idea what it feels like. You just read this from some book or website and assume it's true."

I believe I mentioned above that my brother is a cage fighter. He loves MMA. Do you really think that as a martial artist i wouldn't be interested in testing things out with him or his gym mates? I've trained with a quite a few MMA fighters actually, so yeah, kind of blows your little theory out the window.
There is a major difference between competitive and non-cometitive fighting.


Mz1
"We get toughguys coming into our gym once in a while. They think they know how to fight. After a few months of training them proper techniques, we let them spar, supposedly at around 30-40% power. I go light but don't let them hit me, most of the time they can't even touch my face. They usually get frustrated and go crazy with full powered, haymaker swings, one after the other like in streetfights....full speed until they gas out....while all I do is play with them by jabbing and circling. It's like playing with a little kid."

Cool story. What is your point?

Mz1

"You may have been in 1-5 street fights or self defense situations in your life. But I'm going to bet 1-2. Yet you're going to base everything on just these few incidents w/o admitting to yourself that you were probably facing untrained street slobs who thought they were tough. While I train by punching & kicking guys almost 3-4x per week, religiously. Who do you think is going to be more calm & collected with more reflex, endurance, power, precision, etc...including being able to take a punch(es) to the face, during a streetfight?"

You are right that my personal experiences are not the alpha and omega of all things SD. What I do know is that my experiences with SD are like the experiences of others who had success, and those who face the experiences I'm talking about tend to agree with me.
One is never in a position to know if they are facing someone with training or experience. Sure you might pick up on few signals, but in the end it doesn't matter as the nature of the fight plays out the same. There is still a primary agressor who intiated the fight, and that person does not stop unless they get what the wanted or you make it too costly for them and they leave, or you put them down.
When it comes to be calm and collected during a fight, you really have no idea what I've had to do to earn my rank in my organization. Once you overcome the very real possibility of being seriously maimed or killed, stuff tends to not bother you as much anymore.

　
Mz1
"If you think of attacking you cannotdefend." -Himura Kenshin

"This is wrong. It's called points of defense being employed while attacking."


"If you thinking of defending you cannot attack." -Himura Kenshin

"Wrong again. What do you think a counter is?"

See the above about what goes on in the attackers mindset in a non-competitive fight. Properly trained martial artists do not think of defending when moving to attack. It is proper to do the action you want to do without concern of what the other person will do in response. This is 100% commitment to finishing the technique. It is necessary for victory; without this committment the technique fails. If the opponent responds by trying to attack at the same time or counter in some way, you shouldn't worry about it. If you are properly trained you will naturally respond to the change and adjust accordingly without being thrown off balance mentally because they did something unexpected. You don't move to attack while thinking about how you are going to react to the way he reacts to your reaction of him attacking you in the first place.
Likewise, if one thinks only of defense he or she cannot take the initiative to attack as that person will be preoccupied with what the attacker is doing. If you only think about how to respond to the attacker, then you are at serious risk of being baited into a worse position. It is always better to act than react.
Ideally one doesn't think too much of either attack or defense. The defensive movements should just happen if you train properly, and the attacking movements whould not be something intricate you've planned out but rather a guidline to what you hope to accomplish overall (example: knock him down and escape).

A counter is a long table-like structure you put a microwave and toaster over on. It may or may not have a sink or cabinets.
Wait. You meant counter attack right? As in the combative movement of attacking after you successfully defend? You don't think about the defending action here, you think about the attacking one. To successfully counter something you must instantly react appropriately to what is happening, therefore there is no time to think about it. Hence the statement "if you think about defending you cannot attack". If you focus on thinking about how to stop the guy from hitting or grabbing you, you do not take the initiative and will miss crucial moments where you could win the fight. Anytime anyone successfully counter attacks it is because they did not think about the action and instead just recognized the appropriate action the moment it presented itself because of training. If you are thinking during the fight, you are behind. It is the time to act, not think about it.


Mz1
"Your "real fights" are usually just 2 sloppy guys on the streets gassing out and then quitting. Somethings the guy winning doesn't allow you to leave and keeps pummeling you, what then?"

Most "real fights" are between untrained individuals. But a lack of training does not mean a lack of experience.
If the guy winning just wants to keep beating you, I'd hope you'd keep trying to defend yourself. If you aren't able to, you're screwed.


Mz1
"Yeah, it's much easier to beat up some untrained slob on the street, which is usually the case. I've had a giant buck knife pulled on me as well as guns. Is that good enough for you?"

Not really, because I think you're lying.

　
Mz1
"The last street fight I was in, it was just pure comedy. I wished someone got it on video. I was just playing with this guy using jabs, teeps and footwork while letting him throw all out crazy punches until he gassed out (plus I probably caught him in the solar plexus with that last teep). I didn't even want to hurt him. Most other street altercations was just screaming and cussing."

If you didn't want to hurt him, you should have left. The face you were able to keep him at bay with jabs proves he wasn't intent on causing you serious harm. If he was, he would have eaten the punch and continued forward anyway just to see you damaged. This is not SD and is an example of the "monkey dance" where two people try to show dominace over each other. Legally you were probably committing battery and would not have been viewed as justified in your actions. This just screams ego maniac.


Mz1
"So basically you're admitting that you really don't spar hard, maybe at all. This is nothing unusual. MA'ists do this often. At least those that are fighters. I'm not asking you to go rip off a school's sign, barge into their class and throw their school sign at the feet of the master and step on it....like in the movies."

How is my statement about the idiocy of challenging other dojo or gyms to a fight an admission of not training hard? This argument is not connected in anyway to what I actually said and is a blatant and rather desprate attempt by you to discredit me by strawmaning the argument.
For the record. I don't spar. Sparring is for competition. I pressure test. They would look kind of the same to you from your perspective I bet, but the purposes are really quite different as sparring is for sport purposes and pressure testing is non-competitive.


Mz1
"On the streets, it will be very well placed punches that are carefully picked. But I'm more of a jab spammer then knees and elbow guy."

This statement is more evidence that you've never been seriously threatened before and engage soley in the monkey dance.



Mz1
"Well it's a true statement. Hapikido guys aren't known for their hands just as Boxers aren't known for their kicks. Maybe you're way too sensitive"

Except for, ya know, all those joint manipulations they do. But as an expert, I'm sure you left that part out on purpose.



Mz1
"So an MMA fighter knocking their opponent out in the street or battelfield using his MMA skills.... isn't good enough for this MMA fighter to "survive, escape, arrest (nor) kill" his opponent?"


Read the damn comment correctly. What I said was that a competitive fighter CAN do those things if he adjusts what he learned in training to the new environment. He or she has the basic skills, if he or she can make the proper adjustmusts because fighting for your life is nothing like fighting for a title. Adjustments must be made.



Mz1
"I think you go through choreographed sparring and maybe light sparring but never hard sparring to test out your skills and what you think works.....so no one is really in danger of getting punched or kicked at 80-100% power in the face, body, legs, etc. If this is true, then I think that your training is highly unrealistic and doesn't prepare you for the streets nor the battlefield as well as MMA would."

It's a good thing it's not true then!
Pressure testing accounts for quite a bit of what I do and serious protective gear is required for it. It is a necessary part of training to make sure you can actually do what you think you can do.

Mz1
"I already told you, if you've managed to step to the side of your opponent, why not elbow them with an elbow to the temple rather than this n-strike to the elbow?"

So now I get to explain again why you don't understand the idea and jsut how off base you are about the purpose of the tactic.
First off, you don't step to the side. I said that already in a previous post. You move forward at 45 degrees. Moving this way toward the desired arm puts you a position for the opponent to try and hit or grab you with that arm as attacking with the other arm would require a turning movement to reorient them to your position.
You can't elbow them in the temple, because you wouldn't be close enough for that during the inital movement. You could hit them with your fist, but that's not the point of doing the movement.
The point of striking the elbow area is that it is a set up to your desired technique. When attempting this action there are a few likely scenarios that you account for. 1. The attacker punched and you are moving to evade the strike. 2. You move first, and the attacker strikes out with the limb because you entered his space. 3. You move first and the opponent hesitates and doesn't throw the punch.

Here is how, if you are trained properly in distance, timing, angling, and targeting you can do nearly the exact same action without worrying which action (or lack thereof) the opponent has chosen:

1. As the opponent punches you move forward 45 degrees and evade the hit while simultaniously striking the back his arm around the elbow area and punching through the arm in a manner that takes it across his body, causing him to twist his spine. You now have his back.
2. As you move forward, the opponent attacks out of a need to protect his space. You do the same thing as #1 and end up at his back.
3. As you move forward like above at the moment in time where you catch the opponent in a state of hesitation, you punch the area around the back of his elbow from it's resting position across his body. You now have his back.
I'm sure you don't think this will work, and nothing I say will change your narrow view of the world. I'm going to explain why it works though just in case anyone else is still reading my ramblings at this time.
Targeting the back of the elbow is a sound tactic for the purpose of moving to your opponent's back (or side if you prefer). The part of arm between the elbow and shoulder is what is being targeted. It can be struck accurately even in motion because it does not move much distance between its restng state and the extension from punching or grabbing. So with training, you can reliable judge where the target will be at any given time
You strike nerves yes, but pain and numbness are not the goal. Those are just bonuses. The goal is to punch through the arm moving it across the body and affect spinal alignment, which affects balance. If your opponent is fighting for balance he cannot fight you and this presents the opportunity for continued striking or grappling.
You don't just hit him in the head, because every idiot protects their head in a fight. Those that don't, don't fight for very long. People expect their head to be targeted in the middle of a fight, so they take actions to protect it such as blocking with the arm or bobbing and evasive manuvers. No one protects the elbow, because no one thinks their elbow is a target. So you attack it, draw their attention to it and use that as your set up for your desired technique whether that be a throw, choke, or another strike to a more vital area.
It's very simple, but requires dedicated practice. It's not something someone can do right away, but once you get the footwork and timing right, it's very reliable.
　

Sorry for such a long post everyone, but there has just been so much ignorance here.

 

[Cyriacus]

Mz1
"Put any toughguy on the streets into the cage/ring vs. a real fighter and it's usually going to be a bloodbath. UFC 1-4 already proved that TMA got destroyed pretty handily, which birthed the new generation of MMA."

I doubt it would be a bloodbath. Some blood? Sure, but no ref is going to let someone get majorly injured. You see, there are things called rules. Because of these rules, anyone not familiar with the competitive fighting scene is going to lose (as long as they play by those rules).
Now I'm not saying MMA guys can't break rules or don't break rules or can't win in a "no holds barred" type of thing. What I'm saying is that when you train for a particular environment, you tend to think in terms of that environment. You see, all martial training is designed with a particular environment. Most koryu don't have a lot of groundfighting, because they would sooner stab you to death once on the ground. Silat has a lot of really low postures, because the ground in their area is very slippery and rocky a lot of the time and they expect to fall at some point. MMA as it is now is the accumulation of what aspects of TMA work best within the confines of the rules. None of them are intrinsically better than the others, they aim to be applicable for the environement in which they were created.

The better retort You could have used on mz1 here:
Look at the brackets.
UFC 1:
Gordeau TKOs Teila Tuli. Savate VS Sumo
Kevin Rosier TKOs Zane Frazier. Kickboxing VS Kickboxing
Royce Gracie Submits Art Zimmerson. BJJ VS Boxing
Ken Shamrock Submits Patrick Smith. Wrestling VS Taekwondo
Gerard Gordeau Submits Kevin Rosier. Savate VS Kickboxing
Royce Gracie Submits Ken Shamrock. BJJ VS Wrestling
Royce Gracie Submits Gerard Gordeau. BJJ VS Savate

So far, all thats happened is that ONE TMA guy lost one fight, and because Gracie beat Shamrock, BJJ made a name for itself instead of Wrestling in the MMA scene.

UFC 2:
Patrick Smith, a practitioner of Taekwondo, Hapkido, Kenpo Karate, and Tang Soo Do practitioner, beat Ray Wizard, Scott Morris, and Johnny Rhodes, then got submitted by Gracie *in the finals*.
Yeah, TMA really got put in its place there. Stupid TMAs, making it to the finals, while BJJ continued getting popular because ground games werent as much of a thing yet.

Before i continue, is BJJ a TMA? I ask, because Taekwondo is a TMA, and it was only founded in the 50s. It was founded on a few traditional styles, and BJJ was build off Kodokan Judo.

UFC 3:
A Ninjutsu guy by the name of Steve Jennum won UFC 3.
Granted, that was due to a cluster of injuries and backouts, but im still not seeing TMAs getting whooped.
The other guy who made it to the finals, Harold Howard, was a Jujutsu and Goju Ryu Karate guy. He also did a few other TMAs.

UFC 4:
Gracie submits Ron van Clief, Karateka.
Gracie submits Keith Hackney, a Kenpo and Taekwondo fighter.
Gracie submits Dan Severn, a Wrestler.
Interestingly, Keith Hackney submitted Joe Son, a Joe Son Do fighter, to get to fight Gracie.
And Dan Severn went through two guys whos styles arent too clear to get to the final. So far, still no whooping. Only Gracie submitting people left and right because His approach was still very new to Them.

So where, exactly, was TMA destroyed, and how do You retort to Me saying that BJJ is just as much a TMA as anything else is, should You brand it as such? It has belts, uniforms, and its used in competitions.

 

[oaktree]

In a street fight there are no rules the other Guy
Is trying to kill you.
In sport martial arts the object is to win.
In a street fight no one to break up the fight, no corner
Man to throw in the towel, ni time limit, no rest.
In a street fight you may fight someone bigger,faster then you.
If you are sick or broke your hand no reschedule fight.
Your opponent may carry a weapon and as soon as you
Shoot into his legs he stabs you in the kidney.
In a street fight multiple attacker, curbs and bricks can be easily
Used against you as you grapple for that arm bar.
In real life encounters you are often robbery from behind.
If you are not training for this type of scenarios and more focused
on rules in a ring your not training for self defense in a street encounter.

 

[Tez3]

"Anyone with legitimate talent doesn’t need to tarnish others to market himself"
~ Ross Enamait

 

[Gnarlie]

Going to weigh in here, against my better judgement. I’m not so sure that Mz1 isn’t one of young Alex’s (Zenjael’s) alters-like his ex-girlfriend, just another sliver of his multiple personality disorder-or, at least, part of his personality disorder. What leads me to this? Posts like this:



Since I’ve trained in BJJ a little, but trained in judo since I was 11, and I’ve also trained on more than one occasion with Danzan Ryu jujutsu folks, and trained in jujutsu myself, I have to say that, frankly, I don’t see how you could be trained “by Japanese Judokas,” or in Danzan ryu jujutsu, and not have some idea of what “randori” means, since both arts use the term.

Hell, in this context, I’m not so sure that Kano didn’t invent the term. :lfao:

Anyway....all this noise about training methodologies, gloves or not, gear or not, contact or not, MMA or not, is just that: noise, and I’m going to impart the one tip that I think counts the most, in any context-strategy or tactics, training methodology, and high vs. low vs. don’t use the same technique more than five times be damned. BTW, Zenjael, “Five?” Really?? Where’d ya come up with that one? If you can hit a guy with five uppercuts in a row, go ahead and do so-it’s probably three too many if the first two landed, anyway...:lfao:

First, a couple of stories.

When I was a 14 year old kid in boarding school, I had a friend whose younger sister-all of 11 or 12-was really, really, really hip for her age. They lived in Manhattan, and at the age of 11, she successfully fended off a mugging/attempted rape. How ? Well, a guy grabbed her and tried to drag her into a basement entry below the sidewalk-you can picture the kind-and she instantly froze up and said, Oh God. Please don’t let me kill again.
He must have believed her, because the guy let go of her, and away she ran. :lfao:

Yet another, that some here have probably heard. Since it’s not my story, I’ll leave the names and particulars out. A pretty well known traditional martial arts instructor in Colorado was hosting his teacher from Japan for some seminars. His teacher-at that point a fairly elderly individual-was challenged to resist the awesome ground and pound skills of an MMA fighter at the seminar. His teacher acquiesced, and when the young man took him down, proceeded to choke him out with the lace he’d surreptitiously removed from his shoe. :lfao:

And, of course, there are countless stories of trained and untrained people disarming gunmen, or people with knives, or fighting off superior numbers-of late, there’s the story of the Gurkha on the train.....

Bottom line, though, what it comes down to:

What am I willing to do? Whatever it takes.

Will I prevail? I will, or die trying

Call it a combination of resolve and intent, or call it mindset-call it whatever you like, but if these qualities aren’t trained and developed, then all the strategy, tactics, skills and attributes developed by whatever sort of training one is engaged in, traditional or otherwise, is just dancing. (BTW, for another tip, ala Mr. Lawson’s post, nothing beats dancing-as in ballroom dancing: cha-cha, waltz, two step, foxtrot, etc.-for establishing some critical movement skills needed for hand to hand combat.)

When I was mugged all those years ago on the subway, well, I’d gotten my pen ready as soon as I saw those young men. Fact is, in my mind, I’d killed all three of them of a couple of times before they made their move. Sure, I handed over my Rolex, and my throwdown wallet (a New York necessity, really) but when they told that kid to cut me, I put my pen in his neck, several times. So many things stick out from that incident for me, but the one that I have carried since then is the way his companions flinched when I looked at them, after sticking the pen in his neck the second or third time, and the way they ran. I’ve never been able to do it in the mirror and see for myself, but over the years I’ve given people “the look,” that look, and it’s never failed me. If I give that look (and I can feel it on my face, I just don't know what it looks like-except maybe that I want to kill someone) and say, "Sit down and shut up," well, that's usually what people do. If I don't say anything and just hit them, they pretty much go down. If they've come at me with bad intent, and there's any talking involved, they usually change their minds......if they have any sense, I guess. :lol:

Attitude. Intention. Resolve.

Mindset. It's what I mean when I say "Keep your knife sharp."

Sure, technique and strategy are important-that’s why I’d practiced using the pen, and why I’d slipped it into my sleeve as soon as those boys showed up on the platform-but mindset carries the day, whether it’s in the dojo, in a tournament, full contact or points, MMA or life and death on the streets.

Elder, I've never heard you speak but I can't help it, in my head you sound like Morgan Freeman. It's the way you write...please take that as a compliment.

Regarding the rest of the thread, I'm lost. What were people's tips?

Gnarlie

 

[Tez3]

Elder, I've never heard you speak but I can't help it, in my head you sound like Morgan Freeman. It's the way you write...please take that as a compliment.

Regarding the rest of the thread, I'm lost. What were people's tips?

Gnarlie

Aha, you too eh!

The tips got lost when it turned into an MMA v TMA thread, which is such a shame. I th9ught that on here at least we'd seen the last of this type of argument. I love both and I hate it when someone comes on slagging off one or the other, I thought that we were better than that here. We can take something from everything, sayng one is better than the other is a nonsense and it's especially so when someone says he's totally right and everyone else is basically rubbish.
Be nice if we got back to tips though.

 

[Mz1]

well yes, people who LIKE to fight would be best served in a school that makes competition a big focus. Not everyone who trains martial arts likes to fight, including those who can defend themselves quite well. For most people, self defense would be a necessary evil and not something to be enjoyed, but done if circumstances make it necessary.

I agree with this. Martial Arts can also be for health, hobby, spirituality, occupation, occupational enhancement, Asian fetishes, etc. ALL valid. It's merely a tool to some and a lifestyle to others.

My main argument is that, while training Self Defense and never sparring for KO's nor fighting can still be effective when the extreme rare case of a real life SD situation calls for its use.....training as a fighter and actually sparring & fighting full contact, is much better. But much more risk for injuries.

and what you may think of other kinds of drills, well, honestly I don't care. The fact that you don't put much stock in them really doesn't affect me, and you are welcome to believe what you want.

That's fine. We also do these drills. We call them constructive sparring. It's just choreographed techniques sparring.

 

[Mz1]

Yup, pretty much the response I expected..... Condescension, missing the point, making assumptions, arrogance.... standard arm chair MMAist stuff..... you are not what you are claiming are you….. and you are pretty young too aren't you..... if you were what you claimed you would not feel the need to respond the way you do….. but eventually you will go away just like those that came before you with the same exact silliness so continuing this would be a waste of my time....... you also did not succeed at making me angry either, which I am fairly certain was your goal in order to continue your ridiculousness.... have a nice day youngster

My opinion of Mz1 and this entire thread he has here

:trollsign

Just because I refuted your arguments, you resort to playing the troll-card? Typical.

I'm open to meet up with anyone in the Wash DC area to train and spar.

Send me a PM bro.

 

[Mz1]

Btw, you did realize I was mocking you earlier, right?

The irony here is that you thought that I was serious in thanking you. Ironic and humorous at the same time. You're the guy at parties who explains his own bad jokes because no one laughed and you think no one got it right? Later bro.

 

[Tez3]

I agree with this. Martial Arts can also be for health, hobby, spirituality, occupation, occupational enhancement, Asian fetishes, etc. ALL valid. It's merely a tool to some and a lifestyle to others.

My main argument is that, while training Self Defense and never sparring for KO's nor fighting can still be effective when the extreme rare case of a real life SD situation calls for its use.....training as a fighter and actually sparring & fighting full contact, is much better. But much more risk for injuries.



That's fine. We also do these drills. We call them constructive sparring. It's just choreographed techniques sparring.

Asian fetishes?

 

[Mz1]

Going to weigh in here, against my better judgement. I’m not so sure that Mz1 isn’t one of young Alex’s (Zenjael’s) alters-like his ex-girlfriend, just another sliver of his multiple personality disorder-or, at least, part of his personality disorder. What leads me to this? Posts like this:

Not sure who Alex Zenjael is, but it's obvious that he had such a bad effect on you....so I'll give you a break and just ignore the rest of your long post. Don't want to be responsible for triggering your paranoia, worse than it currently is.

 

[Mz1]

Ok, let's do this thing.

edit: apparently the quote feature is beyond my mortal abilities and I keep screwing it up. So Mz1's comments are in red

Mz1
"Show me where I said that I'd always assume someone on the street to automatically be an untrained slob. You completely made this up."

"Again? Show me where I said this, otherwise it's the second time that you made up lies."

Ok here's an example of why I don't think you understand how to effectively argue something. Originally you made some comment around the lines of "that might work against an untrained/drunken slob, but not someone trained."
Those of us who commented on it were basically saying, "we treat every opponent as competent and dangerous"; somehow that go turned around into you thinking we were accusing you of thinking you assume the attacker is incompetent. That's not what we were saying. We are saying (or at least I am anyway) that any skill we practice is meant to work against someone actively trying to hurt you and you always assume that person is competent. So no one is accusing you of saying anything about assuming the opposite. Not quite sure how you picked that out honestly.

Mz1
"How is trying to knock someone out in the cage/ring, not a real fight?"

"Real fight" may be a poor choice of words then. What I am talking about is a non-competitive fight, i.e. a fight where one does not try to just defeat their opponent but seriously hurt him or her.
　

Mz1
"You obviously have not fought anyone trained nor experienced then because your last sentence just tells me that you fought these untrained slobs that I was talking about. And it's not even correct. You just described one type of fighting style, counterfighting. Not all "Cagey Guys" are counterfighters."

Again my use of the term "Cagey" is meant to describe the mentality found in competitive fighting. It's a necessary mentality for the sport, but doesn't work well in most SD situations. The "Cagey" mentality is not ment to be inflammatory towards cage fighters; hell my brother is a cage fighter. The idea is that when you are competing, whether in the ring, cage, or a bar cause the person is too egocentric to just leave, a "cagey" fighter looks to gauge his opponent to provoke action he can counter. It's not a bad thing in competition, but SD doesn't really apply here because if the guy is bobbing and weaving then I'm leaving. If there is no attack and the guy is just waiting for you to come fight with him then it is not self-defense. There is a lack of intent to commit serious harm.


Mz1
"I've only trained in BJJ (by Japanese Judokas) and Danzan Ryu Jujutsu so how could I possibly know what "randori" means. And years of MA traditions doesn't automatically makes it effective. Some of it is for show, like a 540 degrees tornado kick or something. I'm sure it can hurt someone, but go ahead, try it in a real fight. This is the point."

If you know about randori, then you know TMA have methods for pressure testing their skills. Now, not all schools do this and I think it is a very serious component to training. It is necessary to actually know if you can do what you believe you are being trained to do.
And nothing I do is for show. The XMA type thing you are describing is not martial arts; it's a dance routine. No one arguing with you is involved with that nonsense as far as i know. Of course flashy techniques are unreliable, but no one is talking about flashy techniques. You have no actual point here because you are arguing against a strawman.

Mz1

"My point has always been that this technique is highly risky, yields less reward as opposed to elbowing or punching them in the temple at this position and therefore, a waste of time. This is what the early UFC showed us when it pitted TMA vs. TMA.Early UFC's weeded out all of these flashy ninja strikes and dispelled their validity in a real fight. And UFC 1-4 allowed all strikes including those to the groin, throat, eyes, etc. Only eye gouging, fish-hooking and biting were not allowed, but did NOT disqualify a fighter. They were only fined $1000 per incident....therefore could still win a fight through biting or such. The total purse was around $60,000 for that day, so that's at least 60 incidents of being able to use eye gouges or biting and break even."

In sparring and competition one takes less risks than they do in SD or a fight that potentially could lead to death. In a real SD situation where your well-being is threatened, proper action requires you to take a risk, not taking that risk for fear of injury or whatever results sloppy technique which results in failing the action attempted. I don't see how you feel the tactic I'm advocating is more risky than what you advocate here. It's quite the opposite actually, but I'll explain why down below.


Mz1

"The problem with your fighting theory is that it's just a theory. You've only practiced it through choreographed sparring and not when your opponent is trying to knock you out."

Where to begin with this? Ok first, the "choreographed sparring" is called kata in Japanese martial arts. Yes you know what is about to happen (most of the time), but the attacker really should be trying to hurt you during the drill. It's has to have intent. Now after that, you do randori training which I should not have to explain why that is applicable to actual non-competitive fighting due to all your experience with Japanese Brazillian Jujutsuka and what not.

Mz1
"You complain that the cage may be too big, thus giving the MMA room to make distance, thus, you have it all planned out in your mind that this is how it must happen, in a tight space or something."

Are you kidding me? Sport matches have wide spaces without hazardous objects to be aware of. Even if you had to resort to physical SD in a large area, say a parking lot, there is still a ton of stuff that you need to be aware of like curbs, cars, other people, glass on the ground, yadda, yadda, yadda. If you are out and about and someone wants to hurt you (not fight you, but hurt you), it's likely there will be crap everywhere you have to account for. If you are confronted in a wide open space you have room to escape.
Or brag about how awesome you are and get cracked over the head with a beer bottle by his friends around the corner, whatever you prefer.

Mz1

"Are you trying to tell me that knocking someone out or choking them unconscious doesn't immediately end the threat whether it be in the cage/ring, street, prison, deserted island, etc.?"

No. You've missed the point. The threat in competition is a different kind of threat than in a non-competitive fight. In competition, the threat is being hit, knocked out, choked out, submitted, and "losing". In non-competitive fights the threat is more severe so the mentality of the situation is different. In non-competitive fighting the threats are serious injury, risk of being maimed or killed, legal action, and ahost of other things one does not consider in competition.
Of course a competitive fighter could be maimed or seriously injured in a fight, but the point is that he or she does not expect it to be likely. Refs are involved to stop such things before they occur, so fighters don't enter the ring thinking they could be permanently disabled when they leave.


Mz1

"And the reason both fighters are going back and forth for 3-12 rounds, usually w/o anyone getting KO'ed or submitted and it goes to the judges' card is obviously because both opponents are trained fighters that are equally matched in both size and skill. These are 2 well tuned athletes (usually), not some SD guy vs. a loudmouth drunk at a bar. It's not easy to KO someone who's equally skilled."

The reason a sport fight last so long is because it is actually a string of multiple confrontations broken up throughout the match. Look at it, fighter's square off, size each other up, and bait for an opportunity to capitalize on. When someone sees a moment they quickly weigh the options of whether or not to go in. If they hesitate they have to wait for the next opportunity. If they go for it and it works they gain the upper hand until the other guy sees his chance to get out of it.
Now, stay with me here, cause this next part is crucial.
If the guy getting beaten on starts successfully defending a sport fighter will back off to avoid being countered and begin a new engagement. this is where the string of multple confrontations comes into play. they start the whole thing all over again.
BUT! In non-competitive fighting, if they person being beaten on starts successfully defending the fight, the aggressor will change his position and keep attacking anyway because he is committed to the attack. His goal is to hurt, injure, or kill and ceasing the attack is not an option for him if these are his goals. He does not think of idea that the guy will possibly counter, because as a rule people don't pick fights with other people who can beat them. Predators attack people who they believe are easy targets.
So in non-competitive fighting, the intial aggressor does not think of needing defense, or else he wouldn't have attacked in the first place.
Even if two people fighting in a non-competitive manner are both highly skilled the fight doesn't last long. To think that a fight between highly skilled opponenets would last more than a fight between a few undisciplined goons is pure movie nonsense. It's actually the opposite. The more skilled someone is the more likely he or she is to recognize the instant he or she can take the initiative to attack. In this kind of fight, both opponents must enter in the fight with a sense of abandonment, or else they will hesitate and be struck or thrown or stabbed by the other person. At best you could expect maybe one possible counter (if they are both aware of each other's training backgrounds). If a physical confrontation lasts more than a few seconds then it is about ego, or no one involved has a clue what they are doing.
　

Mz1
"Yet you think that you can just walk up to a trained sports fighter like Mike Tyson and poke him in the eyes?"

I know this is a tounge in cheek type of statement and meant to be rhetorical, but I'm goign to answer it anyway. So, honestly? It depends how I go about it. If he observes me as a threat then, no, I'm probably going to be eating my own teeth if I just up an try to gouge his eyes.
But if I could set it up properly, then sure. He may be a skilled boxer and I'd be a fool to meet him in a boxing ring, but invincible he aint. No one is unbeatable. The best warrior in the world could be felled by a bumbling idiot if the circumstances were right. Martial training is about stacking the odds as best you can in your favor. So, yes. i could do it if I approached it tactically.
I can't wait to see if you turn this into a misrepresentation of me thinking I could "beat up" Mike Tyson.



Mz1
"Put any toughguy on the streets into the cage/ring vs. a real fighter and it's usually going to be a bloodbath. UFC 1-4 already proved that TMA got destroyed pretty handily, which birthed the new generation of MMA."

I doubt it would be a bloodbath. Some blood? Sure, but no ref is going to let someone get majorly injured. You see, there are things called rules. Because of these rules, anyone not familiar with the competitive fighting scene is going to lose (as long as they play by those rules).
Now I'm not saying MMA guys can't break rules or don't break rules or can't win in a "no holds barred" type of thing. What I'm saying is that when you train for a particular environment, you tend to think in terms of that environment. You see, all martial training is designed with a particular environment. Most koryu don't have a lot of groundfighting, because they would sooner stab you to death once on the ground. Silat has a lot of really low postures, because the ground in their area is very slippery and rocky a lot of the time and they expect to fall at some point. MMA as it is now is the accumulation of what aspects of TMA work best within the confines of the rules. None of them are intrinsically better than the others, they aim to be applicable for the environement in which they were created.

　
Mz1
"Obviously you've never fought in the ring/cage, which is why you have no idea what it feels like. You just read this from some book or website and assume it's true."

I believe I mentioned above that my brother is a cage fighter. He loves MMA. Do you really think that as a martial artist i wouldn't be interested in testing things out with him or his gym mates? I've trained with a quite a few MMA fighters actually, so yeah, kind of blows your little theory out the window.
There is a major difference between competitive and non-cometitive fighting.


Mz1
"We get toughguys coming into our gym once in a while. They think they know how to fight. After a few months of training them proper techniques, we let them spar, supposedly at around 30-40% power. I go light but don't let them hit me, most of the time they can't even touch my face. They usually get frustrated and go crazy with full powered, haymaker swings, one after the other like in streetfights....full speed until they gas out....while all I do is play with them by jabbing and circling. It's like playing with a little kid."

Cool story. What is your point?

Mz1

"You may have been in 1-5 street fights or self defense situations in your life. But I'm going to bet 1-2. Yet you're going to base everything on just these few incidents w/o admitting to yourself that you were probably facing untrained street slobs who thought they were tough. While I train by punching & kicking guys almost 3-4x per week, religiously. Who do you think is going to be more calm & collected with more reflex, endurance, power, precision, etc...including being able to take a punch(es) to the face, during a streetfight?"

You are right that my personal experiences are not the alpha and omega of all things SD. What I do know is that my experiences with SD are like the experiences of others who had success, and those who face the experiences I'm talking about tend to agree with me.
One is never in a position to know if they are facing someone with training or experience. Sure you might pick up on few signals, but in the end it doesn't matter as the nature of the fight plays out the same. There is still a primary agressor who intiated the fight, and that person does not stop unless they get what the wanted or you make it too costly for them and they leave, or you put them down.
When it comes to be calm and collected during a fight, you really have no idea what I've had to do to earn my rank in my organization. Once you overcome the very real possibility of being seriously maimed or killed, stuff tends to not bother you as much anymore.

　
Mz1
"If you think of attacking you cannotdefend." -Himura Kenshin

"This is wrong. It's called points of defense being employed while attacking."


"If you thinking of defending you cannot attack." -Himura Kenshin

"Wrong again. What do you think a counter is?"

See the above about what goes on in the attackers mindset in a non-competitive fight. Properly trained martial artists do not think of defending when moving to attack. It is proper to do the action you want to do without concern of what the other person will do in response. This is 100% commitment to finishing the technique. It is necessary for victory; without this committment the technique fails. If the opponent responds by trying to attack at the same time or counter in some way, you shouldn't worry about it. If you are properly trained you will naturally respond to the change and adjust accordingly without being thrown off balance mentally because they did something unexpected. You don't move to attack while thinking about how you are going to react to the way he reacts to your reaction of him attacking you in the first place.
Likewise, if one thinks only of defense he or she cannot take the initiative to attack as that person will be preoccupied with what the attacker is doing. If you only think about how to respond to the attacker, then you are at serious risk of being baited into a worse position. It is always better to act than react.
Ideally one doesn't think too much of either attack or defense. The defensive movements should just happen if you train properly, and the attacking movements whould not be something intricate you've planned out but rather a guidline to what you hope to accomplish overall (example: knock him down and escape).

A counter is a long table-like structure you put a microwave and toaster over on. It may or may not have a sink or cabinets.
Wait. You meant counter attack right? As in the combative movement of attacking after you successfully defend? You don't think about the defending action here, you think about the attacking one. To successfully counter something you must instantly react appropriately to what is happening, therefore there is no time to think about it. Hence the statement "if you think about defending you cannot attack". If you focus on thinking about how to stop the guy from hitting or grabbing you, you do not take the initiative and will miss crucial moments where you could win the fight. Anytime anyone successfully counter attacks it is because they did not think about the action and instead just recognized the appropriate action the moment it presented itself because of training. If you are thinking during the fight, you are behind. It is the time to act, not think about it.


Mz1
"Your "real fights" are usually just 2 sloppy guys on the streets gassing out and then quitting. Somethings the guy winning doesn't allow you to leave and keeps pummeling you, what then?"

Most "real fights" are between untrained individuals. But a lack of training does not mean a lack of experience.
If the guy winning just wants to keep beating you, I'd hope you'd keep trying to defend yourself. If you aren't able to, you're screwed.


Mz1
"Yeah, it's much easier to beat up some untrained slob on the street, which is usually the case. I've had a giant buck knife pulled on me as well as guns. Is that good enough for you?"

Not really, because I think you're lying.

　
Mz1
"The last street fight I was in, it was just pure comedy. I wished someone got it on video. I was just playing with this guy using jabs, teeps and footwork while letting him throw all out crazy punches until he gassed out (plus I probably caught him in the solar plexus with that last teep). I didn't even want to hurt him. Most other street altercations was just screaming and cussing."

If you didn't want to hurt him, you should have left. The face you were able to keep him at bay with jabs proves he wasn't intent on causing you serious harm. If he was, he would have eaten the punch and continued forward anyway just to see you damaged. This is not SD and is an example of the "monkey dance" where two people try to show dominace over each other. Legally you were probably committing battery and would not have been viewed as justified in your actions. This just screams ego maniac.


Mz1
"So basically you're admitting that you really don't spar hard, maybe at all. This is nothing unusual. MA'ists do this often. At least those that are fighters. I'm not asking you to go rip off a school's sign, barge into their class and throw their school sign at the feet of the master and step on it....like in the movies."

How is my statement about the idiocy of challenging other dojo or gyms to a fight an admission of not training hard? This argument is not connected in anyway to what I actually said and is a blatant and rather desprate attempt by you to discredit me by strawmaning the argument.
For the record. I don't spar. Sparring is for competition. I pressure test. They would look kind of the same to you from your perspective I bet, but the purposes are really quite different as sparring is for sport purposes and pressure testing is non-competitive.


Mz1
"On the streets, it will be very well placed punches that are carefully picked. But I'm more of a jab spammer then knees and elbow guy."

This statement is more evidence that you've never been seriously threatened before and engage soley in the monkey dance.



Mz1
"Well it's a true statement. Hapikido guys aren't known for their hands just as Boxers aren't known for their kicks. Maybe you're way too sensitive"

Except for, ya know, all those joint manipulations they do. But as an expert, I'm sure you left that part out on purpose.



Mz1
"So an MMA fighter knocking their opponent out in the street or battelfield using his MMA skills.... isn't good enough for this MMA fighter to "survive, escape, arrest (nor) kill" his opponent?"


Read the damn comment correctly. What I said was that a competitive fighter CAN do those things if he adjusts what he learned in training to the new environment. He or she has the basic skills, if he or she can make the proper adjustmusts because fighting for your life is nothing like fighting for a title. Adjustments must be made.



Mz1
"I think you go through choreographed sparring and maybe light sparring but never hard sparring to test out your skills and what you think works.....so no one is really in danger of getting punched or kicked at 80-100% power in the face, body, legs, etc. If this is true, then I think that your training is highly unrealistic and doesn't prepare you for the streets nor the battlefield as well as MMA would."

It's a good thing it's not true then!
Pressure testing accounts for quite a bit of what I do and serious protective gear is required for it. It is a necessary part of training to make sure you can actually do what you think you can do.

Mz1
"I already told you, if you've managed to step to the side of your opponent, why not elbow them with an elbow to the temple rather than this n-strike to the elbow?"

So now I get to explain again why you don't understand the idea and jsut how off base you are about the purpose of the tactic.
First off, you don't step to the side. I said that already in a previous post. You move forward at 45 degrees. Moving this way toward the desired arm puts you a position for the opponent to try and hit or grab you with that arm as attacking with the other arm would require a turning movement to reorient them to your position.
You can't elbow them in the temple, because you wouldn't be close enough for that during the inital movement. You could hit them with your fist, but that's not the point of doing the movement.
The point of striking the elbow area is that it is a set up to your desired technique. When attempting this action there are a few likely scenarios that you account for. 1. The attacker punched and you are moving to evade the strike. 2. You move first, and the attacker strikes out with the limb because you entered his space. 3. You move first and the opponent hesitates and doesn't throw the punch.

Here is how, if you are trained properly in distance, timing, angling, and targeting you can do nearly the exact same action without worrying which action (or lack thereof) the opponent has chosen:

1. As the opponent punches you move forward 45 degrees and evade the hit while simultaniously striking the back his arm around the elbow area and punching through the arm in a manner that takes it across his body, causing him to twist his spine. You now have his back.
2. As you move forward, the opponent attacks out of a need to protect his space. You do the same thing as #1 and end up at his back.
3. As you move forward like above at the moment in time where you catch the opponent in a state of hesitation, you punch the area around the back of his elbow from it's resting position across his body. You now have his back.
I'm sure you don't think this will work, and nothing I say will change your narrow view of the world. I'm going to explain why it works though just in case anyone else is still reading my ramblings at this time.
Targeting the back of the elbow is a sound tactic for the purpose of moving to your opponent's back (or side if you prefer). The part of arm between the elbow and shoulder is what is being targeted. It can be struck accurately even in motion because it does not move much distance between its restng state and the extension from punching or grabbing. So with training, you can reliable judge where the target will be at any given time
You strike nerves yes, but pain and numbness are not the goal. Those are just bonuses. The goal is to punch through the arm moving it across the body and affect spinal alignment, which affects balance. If your opponent is fighting for balance he cannot fight you and this presents the opportunity for continued striking or grappling.
You don't just hit him in the head, because every idiot protects their head in a fight. Those that don't, don't fight for very long. People expect their head to be targeted in the middle of a fight, so they take actions to protect it such as blocking with the arm or bobbing and evasive manuvers. No one protects the elbow, because no one thinks their elbow is a target. So you attack it, draw their attention to it and use that as your set up for your desired technique whether that be a throw, choke, or another strike to a more vital area.
It's very simple, but requires dedicated practice. It's not something someone can do right away, but once you get the footwork and timing right, it's very reliable.
　

Sorry for such a long post everyone, but there has just been so much ignorance here.

LOL, for someone who seems to like calling me a troll, you sure do like talking to me.

I wouldn't want you to feed troll like me so I'll just ignore your long post too and just talk to someone like Flying Crane, who's a reasonable and mature, MA'ist.

Later bro....and sorry you had to type that giant essay.

 

[elder999]

Not sure who Alex Zenjael is, but it's obvious that he had such a bad effect on you....so I'll give you a break and just ignore the rest of your long post. Don't want to be responsible for triggering your paranoia, worse than it currently is.

That I'm paranoid goes without saying. :lfao:

On the other hand, so does the fact that you and Alex would ignore the reality of mindset in combat. Not surprised at all....:lfao:

(Of course, it also conveniently allows both of you to ignore the absolute sillines of claiming to be trained bu Japanese judoka and in Danzan ryu being a reason for not knowing what "randori" is .....:: )

 

[Mz1]

The better retort You could have used on mz1 here:
Look at the brackets.
UFC 1:
Gordeau TKOs Teila Tuli. Savate VS Sumo
Kevin Rosier TKOs Zane Frazier. Kickboxing VS Kickboxing
Royce Gracie Submits Art Zimmerson. BJJ VS Boxing
Ken Shamrock Submits Patrick Smith. Wrestling VS Taekwondo
Gerard Gordeau Submits Kevin Rosier. Savate VS Kickboxing
Royce Gracie Submits Ken Shamrock. BJJ VS Wrestling
Royce Gracie Submits Gerard Gordeau. BJJ VS Savate

So far, all thats happened is that ONE TMA guy lost one fight, and because Gracie beat Shamrock, BJJ made a name for itself instead of Wrestling in the MMA scene.

UFC 2:
Patrick Smith, a practitioner of Taekwondo, Hapkido, Kenpo Karate, and Tang Soo Do practitioner, beat Ray Wizard, Scott Morris, and Johnny Rhodes, then got submitted by Gracie *in the finals*.
Yeah, TMA really got put in its place there. Stupid TMAs, making it to the finals, while BJJ continued getting popular because ground games werent as much of a thing yet.

Before i continue, is BJJ a TMA? I ask, because Taekwondo is a TMA, and it was only founded in the 50s. It was founded on a few traditional styles, and BJJ was build off Kodokan Judo.

UFC 3:
A Ninjutsu guy by the name of Steve Jennum won UFC 3.
Granted, that was due to a cluster of injuries and backouts, but im still not seeing TMAs getting whooped.
The other guy who made it to the finals, Harold Howard, was a Jujutsu and Goju Ryu Karate guy. He also did a few other TMAs.

UFC 4:
Gracie submits Ron van Clief, Karateka.
Gracie submits Keith Hackney, a Kenpo and Taekwondo fighter.
Gracie submits Dan Severn, a Wrestler.
Interestingly, Keith Hackney submitted Joe Son, a Joe Son Do fighter, to get to fight Gracie.
And Dan Severn went through two guys whos styles arent too clear to get to the final. So far, still no whooping. Only Gracie submitting people left and right because His approach was still very new to Them.

So where, exactly, was TMA destroyed, and how do You retort to Me saying that BJJ is just as much a TMA as anything else is, should You brand it as such? It has belts, uniforms, and its used in competitions.

Thanks for the break down. This is an excellent post.

My point though is that Patrick Smith, Gracie, Shamrock, etc. represented the evolution of combat fight training, breaking away from TMA.

Smith's base is TKD, but he's a Kickboxer, fighting in K-1, etc. Kickboxing is from Karate, just as BJJ is from Japanese JJ & Judo....but KB and BJJ are similar in terms of being these catalysts towards breaking away from TMA and transitioning into what MMA is today.

Jeet Kune Do could have been what MMA is today had it not fizzled out by focusing too much on SD ninja-strikes rather than the sporty aspect of competitive fighting.

 

[Gnarlie]

Jeet Kune Do could have been what MMA is today had it not fizzled out by focusing too much on SD ninja-strikes rather than the sporty aspect of competitive fighting.

Oh dear god. JKD is alive and well, thank you. What do you think of as a 'ninja strike' then, other than a sarcastic and frankly insulting way to address anything outside of the MMA sport syllabus?

JKD can and does feature techniques and principles from all of the major arts that constitute the core of MMA and more. I don't think you understand what you are talking about, and to write off a whole system as 'fizzled out' gives some indication of how your preconceptions have limited your learning ability to date.

Good luck with your future career, an attitude like yours will only get you so far in life.

Gnarlie

 

[jks9199]

My point though is that Patrick Smith, Gracie, Shamrock, etc. represented the evolution of combat fight training, breaking away from TMA.

No, they represent an evolution in combat SPORT training. If you get a chance to look at some tournament sparring from the 60s and 70s, you may notice that it doesn't resemble the current stuff much at all. Somewhere, people stopped transferring style to fighting... but that's a whole 'nother topic. Something's gone off if what you do under pressure bears no relation to what you do in training... (By the way, you might want to look more closely at the rules and environment. The early UFC events favored grapplers...)

My tip early was to know what you're involved in: is it some sort of status fight, or is it real violence? They aren't the same, and responses that work well in one won't be as successful in the other. Violence is likely to be on you before you realize it, for most people. Rory Miller did a great job summarizing the difference: Violence happens closer, harder, faster, and more surprisingly than you expect. At work -- I'm paid to be on the surprising side. If I anticipate you're going to fight me -- I'll stack the deck every which way I can. I'll bring buddies. I'll use unfair advantages like the Taser. Guess what? Predators will do the same. They'll bash your head in with a club before they take your wallet. But a monkey dance or status fight? There's almost a script and ritual to it -- because it is every bit as ritualized as two rams bashing their heads against each other to win a mate. Know the difference...

 

[Cyriacus]

Thanks for the break down. This is an excellent post.

My point though is that Patrick Smith, Gracie, Shamrock, etc. represented the evolution of combat fight training, breaking away from TMA.

Smith's base is TKD, but he's a Kickboxer, fighting in K-1, etc. Kickboxing is from Karate, just as BJJ is from Japanese JJ & Judo....but KB and BJJ are similar in terms of being these catalysts towards breaking away from TMA and transitioning into what MMA is today.

Jeet Kune Do could have been what MMA is today had it not fizzled out by focusing too much on SD ninja-strikes rather than the sporty aspect of competitive fighting.

Fighting in the K1 doesnt mean youre a Kickboxer - It means Youre competing in Kickboxing. Much like Andy Hug.

They didnt transition away from TMA - They mix and matched, then made an event out of it. It was quite a long time before it stopped being system vs system, and became MMA vs MMA.

 

[Steve]

Just to keep things real here, the early UFCs included elite level Judoka, elite level Sambo/Sombo practitioners and Ken Shamrock wasn't just a wrestler. While you could say that about some of the early guys who were successful, such as Dan Severn and Mark Coleman, it doesn't fit Shamrock. He was the closest thing to an actual MMA fighter that existed at the time. Ken Shamrock had around 20 fights in the Pancrase tournaments in Japan and entered the Octagon in 1996 as the "King of Pancrase."

 

[chinto]

Thanks for the break down. This is an excellent post.

My point though is that Patrick Smith, Gracie, Shamrock, etc. represented the evolution of combat fight training, breaking away from TMA.

Smith's base is TKD, but he's a Kickboxer, fighting in K-1, etc. Kickboxing is from Karate, just as BJJ is from Japanese JJ & Judo....but KB and BJJ are similar in terms of being these catalysts towards breaking away from TMA and transitioning into what MMA is today.

Jeet Kune Do could have been what MMA is today had it not fizzled out by focusing too much on SD ninja-strikes rather than the sporty aspect of competitive fighting.

ok if you are into combative sports you may have some kind of valid point. but some of us are not into that, but into survival in the street situation. If you think that some how the UFC is anything like a real SD situation, I am sad for you.

UFC and such = rounds, a mat, a Ref and good lighting, and your life is not in jeopardy intentionally.

SD situation on the street= run if you can, talk your way out if you can, and if you fight go for broke! Because your life is literally at stake! To loose does not equal a loss on your fight record, but your provable major injury and or your death!

So, to say that some how if you are not trying to be one of the UFC and similar cage fighters you are not training or well trained is kinda ridicules.. TMA was originally founded and developed for survival.

Does that mean that MMA and such is invalid? NO, just it is a bunch of things taken from TMA and modified for combative sport use in a prize fight. Each has its uses. for myself I am interested in defending me and mine, and could care less about the cage matches.