Your Fighting Tip

[Kframe]

I would like to point to my other thread were i mention my fathers background and self defense history. My dad knows all the convoluted advanced stuff, but in every mugging and fight he has been in it was the basics that he learned that saw him through. TKD is a prime example of my issue with tma, it used to be a viable SD art untill they went the sport route and wanted to show off the kicks for the Olympics. Im upset that the TMA allowed crap teachers to permiate there art. I cant find a decent TMA in my city, and the ones that are decent with good lineages are an hour away and not the styles i want to train.(JKD and WC with a direct lineage to Inosanto)

So what im hearing is, that at good tma places, they test evey combination,technique against a live resisting opponent? Im not saying full power elbow to the face, but with him throwing a hard shot for real at your face and you defending and stepping in for the elbow?(its how we train it, we pull contact of the elbow, gonna change to full contact with power when we get the special face sheilds)

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I would like to point to my other thread were i mention my fathers background and self defense history. My dad knows all the convoluted advanced stuff, but in every mugging and fight he has been in it was the basics that he learned that saw him through. TKD is a prime example of my issue with tma, it used to be a viable SD art untill they went the sport route and wanted to show off the kicks for the Olympics. Im upset that the TMA allowed crap teachers to permiate there art. I cant find a decent TMA in my city, and the ones that are decent with good lineages are an hour away and not the styles i want to train.(JKD and WC with a direct lineage to Inosanto)

So you're problems not with TMA but with recent teachers, and sport versions of TMA's? Unfortunately, there's nothing to stop teachers from being crappy..no matter what you do, those will exist. As for the sport part:yes, sport fighting has become much more important lately, but not all schools are like that. There are plenty of schools that I've seen where sports and competition are not important AT ALL..they're not even mentioned by the instructors ever. There's just less of them compared to the sport ones nowadays.

So what im hearing is, that at good tma places, they test evey combination,technique against a live resisting opponent? Im not saying full power elbow to the face, but with him throwing a hard shot for real at your face and you defending and stepping in for the elbow?(its how we train it, we pull contact of the elbow, gonna change to full contact with power when we get the special face sheilds)

Well...yes. I can't speak for others on here, but at my old kempo place, even in drills, if you don't block, you will get punched/kicked/whatever. And if you don't move correctly, you won't get your shot off. Either their hands will come back to guard if you didn't move fast enough, they'll punch you again if you leave a hole in your defense/forget to guard or block, or they will resist being thrown so you have to throw them properly to get them on the ground, etc. Also, the drills take place with the defender either in a natural stance or in a 'fighting position' to get experience with both. So, don't know about other places, but at mine, each combo/tech is tested against a live, resisting opponent.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

And as for my tip..Before the fight, test all your techs on live resisting opponents, so you're not in for any nasty surprises XD

 

[Mz1]

[QUOTE=Mz1;1528970]

We do use fingerless gloves from time to time as well as other protectiveequipment during stress training and the idea of striking the elbow (both as acounter and as a method of taking initiative still applies). It's not magic;it's a very simple tactic. You just need repetitive training under liveconditions to do it properly.

My point has always been that this technique is highly risky, yields less reward as opposed to elbowing or punching them in the temple at this position and therefore, a waste of time. This is what the early UFC showed us when it pitted TMA vs. TMA. Early UFC's weeded out all of these flashy ninja strikes and dispelled their validity in a real fight. And UFC 1-4 allowed all strikes including those to the groin, throat, eyes, etc. Only eye gouging, fish-hooking and biting were not allowed, but did NOT disqualify a fighter. They were only fined $1000 per incident....therefore could still win a fight through biting or such. The total purse was around $60,000 for that day, so that's at least 60 incidents of being able to use eye gouges or biting and break even.

When I stated retreat, I didn't mean run away. I was just refering to backingup and getting more space. You take whatever chance you want; it won't matterif your opponent is doing what I'm suggesting. If he screws it up that's hisproblem, he'd fail the technique not the other way around.

The problem with your fighting theory is that it's just a theory. You've only practiced it through choreographed sparring and not when your opponent is trying to knock you out. You complain that the cage may be too big, thus giving the MMA room to make distance, thus, you have it all planned out in your mind that this is how it must happen, in a tight space or something.

 

[Mz1]

[QUOTE=Mz1;1528970]
Just as you are assuming I've just read theories?
Look a sport fight doesn't resemble self-defense. In sparring or sportscompetition the fighters aim to out perform one another. Hit while avoid beinghit, choke or submit while avoiding being choked or submitted. SD is about dowhat you need to end the threat.

Are you trying to tell me that knocking someone out or choking them unconscious doesn't immediately end the threat whether it be in the cage/ring, street, prison, deserted island, etc.?

And the reason both fighters are going back and forth for 3-12 rounds, usually w/o anyone getting KO'ed or submitted and it goes to the judges' card is obviously because both opponents are trained fighters that are equally matched in both size and skill. These are 2 well tuned athletes (usually), not some SD guy vs. a loudmouth drunk at a bar. It's not easy to KO someone who's equally skilled. Yet you think that you can just walk up to a trained sports fighter like Mike Tyson and poke him in the eyes?

Put any toughguy on the streets into the cage/ring vs. a real fighter and it's usually going to be a bloodbath. UFC 1-4 already proved that TMA got destroyed pretty handily, which birthed the new generation of MMA.

In SD when the attacker attacks his mind isonly on attacking, not on thinking about what you can do to him. Soself-defense is different from sports, all the time, everytime. That doesn'tmean you can't use the skills learned from sports MA to deal with a SDsituation, it just means you have to adapt those skills to a new environment.But they cannot be treated the same.

Obviously you've never fought in the ring/cage, which is why you have no idea what it feels like. You just read this from some book or website and assume it's true. We get toughguys coming into our gym once in a while. They think they know how to fight. After a few months of training them proper techniques, we let them spar, supposedly at around 30-40% power. I go light but don't let them hit me, most of the time they can't even touch my face. They usually get frustrated and go crazy with full powered, haymaker swings, one after the other like in streetfights....full speed until they gas out....while all I do is play with them by jabbing and circling. It's like playing with a little kid.

You may have been in 1-5 street fights or self defense situations in your life. But I'm going to bet 1-2. Yet you're going to base everything on just these few incidents w/o admitting to yourself that you were probably facing untrained street slobs who thought they were tough. While I train by punching & kicking guys almost 3-4x per week, religiously. Who do you think is going to be more calm & collected with more reflex, endurance, power, precision, etc...including being able to take a punch(es) to the face, during a streetfight?

 

[Mz1]

[QUOTE=Mz1;1528970]

In a life or death fight their is little thought to defense. Ever heard thesaying "the best defense is a good offense"?

Well I'm a counterfighter, so I think I would know this.

That saying is truebecause in a real fight that is not about ego (i.e. proving your a big shot, ortop dog, or whatever), both combatants are aiming to attack.

How is trying to knock someone out in the cage/ring, not a real fight?

If you think of attacking you cannotdefend.

This is wrong. It's called points of defense being employed while attacking.

If you thinking of defending you cannot attack.

Wrong again. What do you think a counter is?

[/quote]
If for whatever reasona combatant stops attacking it is because he know longer thinks he can win. Ina real fight when that happens, someone leaves. When they don't leave it iseither sport or ego.
[/quote]

Tapping. This happens in the cage/ring also. Your "real fights" are usually just 2 sloppy guys on the streets gassing out and then quitting. Somethings the guy winning doesn't allow you to leave and keeps pummeling you, what then?

This shows you've never had your life or well being actually threatened.Fighting in sports is way different than fighting in self-defense or in a H2Hbattlefield situation.

Yeah, it's much easier to beat up some untrained slob on the street, which is usually the case. I've had a giant buck knife pulled on me as well as guns. Is that good enough for you? The last street fight I was in, it was just pure comedy. I wished someone got it on video. I was just playing with this guy using jabs, teeps and footwork while letting him throw all out crazy punches until he gassed out (plus I probably caught him in the solar plexus with that last teep). I didn't even want to hurt him. Most other street altercations was just screaming and cussing.

 

[bluewaveschool]

Mz1 is the baddest dude on MT. True story.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Mz1 is the baddest dude on MT. True story.

I dunno... he and Zenjael might be well matched, in many ways.

 

[bluewaveschool]

Have a good side kick. Know where to put it. (Hint - more places than the knee).

 

[bluewaveschool]

I dunno... he and Zenjael might be well matched, in many ways.

I don't know the first thing about Zenjael, but I don't think I've seen a guy believe his own hype this much in a long time.

 

[Mz1]

[QUOTE=Mz1;1528970]
So you want me to walk into a strangers gym, beat up someone I don't know, filmit, post it, disregard everything my teacher ever taught me about the purposeof our training, all so I can win an argument with someone on the internet. Yalike that's going to happen.

So basically you're admitting that you really don't spar hard, maybe at all. This is nothing unusual. MA'ists do this often. At least those that are fighters. I'm not asking you to go rip off a school's sign, barge into their class and throw their school sign at the feet of the master and step on it....like in the movies.

You just go in like a normal person, ask to train & spar, disclosing your level of experience, pay the drop-in fee, sign the injury waiver and respect their rules. I've done this with Wu Shu schools, TKD, HKD, Krav Maga, MMA, Boxing, etc. And I'm friends with all of them still. We always start out light and usually I'd ask to go harder in later rounds or another day.

BTW the "ol' reliable punch them in the face" tactic is less of agood idea without gloves (i.e. in SD) cuz you risk breaking your hand againstthe person's skull. Gloves aren't designed to protect the other guy's face;they are designed to protect your hand. Use an open had to the face if that isyour target (in SD).

I know about this a lot better than you as I actually punch people in the face at full force quite often and therefore, am much more aware of protecting my hands. This is normal procedure really. When MMA fighters train, we switch from 16oz Boxing gloves to 7oz MMA gloves and to 4oz MMA gloves....often, depending on the drills or type of sparring. There is great care for our fists and our partner's face when sparring with the 4oz MMA gloves. We don't unload everything into our punches like we do when we have on 16oz.

On the streets, it will be very well placed punches that are carefully picked. But I'm more of a jab spammer then knees and elbow guy.

H

ere we have an example of being insulting. More at the bottom.

Well it's a true statement. Hapikido guys aren't known for their hands just as Boxers aren't known for their kicks. Maybe you're way too sensitive.

Of course fighters have these skills, but they are developed differently andfor a different purpose than people who train in a battlefield or SD martialart. An MMA fighter's timing, angling, and awareness are developed so that heor she is better able to win the match. Other methods use different angles,timing, and ideas about awareness because there goals are surival, escape,arrest, or kill.

So an MMA fighter knocking their opponent out in the street or battelfield using his MMA skills.... isn't good enough for this MMA fighter to "survive, escape, arrest (nor) kill" his opponent?

You keep talking about people who "theorize", whatdo you think I do in the dojo anyway?

I think you go through choreographed sparring and maybe light sparring but never hard sparring to test out your skills and what you think works.....so no one is really in danger of getting punched or kicked at 80-100% power in the face, body, legs, etc. If this is true, then I think that your training is highly unrealistic and doesn't prepare you for the streets nor the battlefield as well as MMA would.

Well, the way you’ve been speaking to Tez3 just on thelast page was pretty rude. I know when I call someone an “amateur” or “Sherlock”I’m not paying them any compliments.

Well you're quite biased then because Tez3 dishes out the same toward me and she even admits it. Which I'm fine with because I'm not as sensitive as you are and neither is she.

Then there is the Hapikdo comment in red, which justspews ignorance. If those guys you sparred with weren’t very good at your gamethat doesn’t mean jack squat about Hapkido as a whole. Lumping people in agroup like that just becomes a useless “my style is better than yours argument”.

You obviously need to read more carefully as I actually even said this.

Now personally, I’m offended at the constant use of “ninjamoves”. You use the term do mock the idea as fantastical garbage withoutactually explaining why you think it won’t work beyond “I’d just punch him inthe face”. But here’s the ironic part,what I’m advocating IS A NINJA MOVE. The tactic I advocate can be seen by observingGyokko Ryu and Koto Ryu strategy.
You don’t understand martial arts as well as you thinkyou do.

Well I'm equally offended by your usage of the term "Cagey Guys" so we're even.

And I already told you, if you've managed to step to the side of your opponent, why not elbow them with an elbow to the temple rather than this n-strike to the elbow?

 

[Mz1]

Mz1 is the baddest dude on MT. True story.

Thanks bro.

 

[Tez3]

Mz1 is the baddest dude on MT. True story.

:lfao::lfao::lfao:

 

[Xue Sheng]

:lfao::lfao::lfao:

You see this cat Mz1 is a bad mother--
(Shut your mouth)
But I'm talkin' about Mz1
(Then we can dig it)

 

[WC_lun]

MZ1, I've had full contact fights in the past under MMA type rules, and I've had street fights. They are different. Yes, the training MMA fighters go through is more helpful than those "tma" schools who never test thier stuff under really resisting opponents. However, training under a ruleset does have its disadvantages in a SD situation. If you don't understand why this is so, it is an indicatiion of some miopic vision. Also the goals and enviroments are completly different between the two. What you must be aware of is different. Those differences can lead to some pretty awful problems in self defense.

You will fight how you train. No exceptions, MMA or TMA.

 

[Flying Crane]

A good TMA school will include application drills in the training.

Sparring can be part of that, but there are lots of ways to spar and some ways are better and more useful than others. Open, heavy-contact sparring really isn't all that necessary for most people, if they are training for personal self defense and not training for the ring. Heavy sparring leads to injury, and that can build over time and turn into bad stuff down the road. If you choose to do that because you are involved in a combative sport, that's your choice and it's fine. But to pretend like that approach to training is THE yardstick against which all training must be measured, is simply not true.

No, you do not need to do heavy sparring, and yes, you can still develop good self defense skills.

 

[jks9199]

I've only trained in BJJ (by Japanese Judokas) and Danzan Ryu Jujutsu so how could I possibly know what "randori" means. And years of MA traditions doesn't automatically makes it effective. Some of it is for show, like a 540 degrees tornado kick or something. I'm sure it can hurt someone, but go ahead, try it in a real fight. This is the point.

Kinda confused, now...

You've trained in Brazilian JuJitsu by Japanese Judo practitioners? Ain't that kind of like doing woodcarving in marble?

 

[Mz1]

MZ1, I've had full contact fights in the past under MMA type rules, and I've had street fights. They are different. Yes, the training MMA fighters go through is more helpful than those "tma" schools who never test thier stuff under really resisting opponents. However, training under a ruleset does have its disadvantages in a SD situation. If you don't understand why this is so, it is an indicatiion of some miopic vision. Also the goals and enviroments are completly different between the two. What you must be aware of is different. Those differences can lead to some pretty awful problems in self defense.

You will fight how you train. No exceptions, MMA or TMA.

Your personal experience doesn't make you the final authority on how every streetfight must be like.

There are many factors involved, with the most obvious being, most streetfights are not to the death and crap like many SD people pretend they usually are (to sign up students or keep them from going to MMA). Every phone's got a camera nowadays. There are tons of streetfight videos on the internet now. Not just Youtube, but the X & R rated sites where much more brutal fights are posted.

In such videos, about one out of a hundred has someone beaten severely. Most of the time...once someone is KO'ed or knockdown, the fight is broken up before anyone comes close to dying. Either broken up by bystanders, police, friends of the loser or even friends of the winner....like a Referee. Many times the winner just stops on his own. I may have seen ONE or TWO out of thousands of fight and violent attack videos where someone actually does die.

You say you've had streetfights. Me too. Now what? Your MMA type rules fights...they can mean anything from smoker fights to low level, local tournaments. I beat some of the MMA fighters in my gym who've had more fights than me, they know what's up. If you were a Pro, even low level Pro in MMA, I may listen more to your argument.

My friend, who's pure TKD, HKD, Boxing and hates MMA...has had over 50 streetfights and a small room used to display all of his TKD tournament trophies & medals. He used to take PCP just so he can train longer and harder, and then go out with his friends looking for fights in Black neighborhoods where his stores were (he's Korean). Most of his fights were him punching some loudmouth guy in the face for stepping up to him at his store, the guy drops or is KO'ed, then it's over. He's fought 5 Chinese guys at once before. He's been in firefights in the streets and at his stores. He's been shot, those fighting friends of his...some were shot to death, etc. He used to have a deathwish when he was young. But his vast street fighting experience means nothing in terms of setting some kind of mold for how all streetfights must be different than in the cage/ring as you imply.

You will fight how you train. No exceptions, MMA or TMA.

No exceptions huh? So seeing that how SD and TMA people spar their ninja techniques by pretending to eye gouge someone or pretending to kick them in the nuts....this must mean that when fighting in the streets, they're going to pretend strike just like how they train?

Here's a good example of a Karateka who spent probably most of his time never actually sparring hard for KO's, so he ends up just fake fighting as his normalcy......and gets his bell rung by a Boxer who trains for real by taking real punches to the head and dishing the same out.

 

[WC_lun]

You being an MMA practitioner does not make you the authority on street fighting either. I talk from my experience, my limited time in law enforcement, my multiple contacts in law enforcement, many years in various arts, and common sense.

You talk a lot of friends you have that do this or that. You talk about how much of a bad *** you are. Good for you. Self defense training in martial arts isn't for you. It is for the regular joe. Fully resising opponents are neccessary, but not too soon and not too often.

If you think knocking out an attacker or getting into position to choke them out is easy all the time, you are a fool. As you say, SD is situational and believing everyone is a drunk chump who will be an easy fight just isn't realistic. Sometimes they are even well trained.

You've watched a lot of videos, huh? Explains a lot.

Finally, yes, you will absolutely fight how you train. No exceptions. If you train in fantasy, your ability to defend yourself will also be a fantasy. Train in reality, and your defense skills will be realistic. Everything in between is aplicable as well.

 

[Cirdan]

There used to be a street named after Mz1, but it was changed because no one crosses him and lives