Young Sociopaths

[heretic888]

No such thing as Evil? Is it better to torture a child, or to hug that child?

Appeal To Emotion

It should also be noted that a rejection of moral relativism is not an affirmation of moral absolutism. This is what is referred to as a False Dilemma.

Keep peddling your anti-religion ****.

To claim I am "anti-religion" is completely absurd, given my posting history on MartialTalk. I regularly quote mystics and luminaries from both contemplative Christianity and Mahayana Buddhism.

It should be noted, however, that there are significant correlations between traditional religion and social persecution, at least on the part of the laity. Specifically, Christians demonstrated overall higher degrees of prejudice than non-Christians and traditional Christians demonstrated overall higher degrees of prejucide than liberal Christians.

Of course, this is just correlation. It tells us nothing about causation.

Laterz.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Study: Men Enjoy Seeing Bad People Suffer

Guys also get laughs out of giving each other wedgies, seeing guys get hit in the groin, watching people slip and slide on a patch of ice gets a chuckle, the three stooges. Drawing some conclusion that the criminal justice system is flawed because guys laugh at other people in these situations is a BIG leap.

 

[heretic888]

Guys also get laughs out of giving each other wedgies, seeing guys get hit in the groin, watching people slip and slide on a patch of ice gets a chuckle, the three stooges. Drawing some conclusion that the criminal justice system is flawed because guys laugh at other people in these situations is a BIG leap.

I think, perhaps, you may be seeing things.

No one on this thread has advanced such an argument.

Laterz.

 

[Kacey]

Do I think that what these kids did was criminal and inexcusable? Most definitely. Do I think that the reason why they committed this heinous act should be investigated, and possibly have a bearing on the consequences of their behavior? Yes - because WHY children (or adults, for that matter) would perform such acts is important, not because it excuses it, but because it explains it, at least from the perspective of the perpetrators, and can help dictate what form the consequences should take (e.g. straight jail time, juvenile detention, commitment to a psychiatric facility, etc.) and may identify others of their peer group who may have the same impules. Also, I think it is necessary to understand why they did this, because understanding why they did it may lead to preventing others from doing the same thing in the future.

Punishment is not working as a deterrent in this country, and remediation programs are often not researched based, may be effective because of the personality of the person administering them, do not follow participants once they leave the program, as well as other issues. Education is the key to reducing crimes of all types: education about the benefits of avoiding crime in the long run, about the effects on victims of crimes, and so on, but unfortunately, such education is not a priority in the face of other issues. This type of crime is often a societal, rather than individual issue, and prevention is long-term and must be addressed at the societal level; there is no quick fix. People see crimes occur, and want to see immediate results (jail, fines, community service, etc.), but punitive programs are not working. A new, effective way to address such issues must be found, and it needs to be universal and begun at early ages... unfortunately, long-term projects requiring long-term funding are not popular with people who want to see quick fixes - which many people incarceration to be.

According to a professor in a class I took last semester, one state (at least) predicts how much jail space it will need in the future based on rates of behavior problems in 2nd grade students across the state - the money used to project and plan over this time frame could easily be used for prevention instead - but only if people will legislate for it. It is too late for these boys - they have entered the system, and the system is likely to suck them in and make them unredeemable, if they aren't already - but prevention is the long-term key to reduce, and, potentially avoid, repetition in the future.

 

[heretic888]

Do I think that what these kids did was criminal and inexcusable? Most definitely. Do I think that the reason why they committed this heinous act should be investigated, and possibly have a bearing on the consequences of their behavior? Yes - because WHY children (or adults, for that matter) would perform such acts is important, not because it excuses it, but because it explains it, at least from the perspective of the perpetrators, and can help dictate what form the consequences should take (e.g. straight jail time, juvenile detention, commitment to a psychiatric facility, etc.) and may identify others of their peer group who may have the same impules. Also, I think it is necessary to understand why they did this, because understanding why they did it may lead to preventing others from doing the same thing in the future.

Punishment is not working as a deterrent in this country, and remediation programs are often not researched based, may be effective because of the personality of the person administering them, do not follow participants once they leave the program, as well as other issues. Education is the key to reducing crimes of all types: education about the benefits of avoiding crime in the long run, about the effects on victims of crimes, and so on, but unfortunately, such education is not a priority in the face of other issues. This type of crime is often a societal, rather than individual issue, and prevention is long-term and must be addressed at the societal level; there is no quick fix. People see crimes occur, and want to see immediate results (jail, fines, community service, etc.), but punitive programs are not working. A new, effective way to address such issues must be found, and it needs to be universal and begun at early ages... unfortunately, long-term projects requiring long-term funding are not popular with people who want to see quick fixes - which many people incarceration to be.

According to a professor in a class I took last semester, one state (at least) predicts how much jail space it will need in the future based on rates of behavior problems in 2nd grade students across the state - the money used to project and plan over this time frame could easily be used for prevention instead - but only if people will legislate for it. It is too late for these boys - they have entered the system, and the system is likely to suck them in and make them unredeemable, if they aren't already - but prevention is the long-term key to reduce, and, potentially avoid, repetition in the future.

Well said, well said. :asian:

Laterz.

 

[Akashiro Tamaya]

The death Penalty is a great deterrent to heinous crimes. Without it we would have all the John Wayne Gayce, and the Ted Bundys walking amongst us. One of those two punks is underage. Chances are he would be set free. There are countries that would boil these two nutsacks in a heartbeat.

I don't want to be the Tax payer that is sheltering and feeding the nutbags in prisons because of the numerous appeals which wastes man hours and money. In other words you want to save a covicted murderer from being annihilated, well then pay for it yourself.

By treating nutcases in this manner, we are encouraging behavior that will result in a prison sentence. If there is no threat of the death penalty to one who commits a murder, than that person is guaranteed to be provided with a decent living environment until their next parole hearing.

They are definitely not getting the punishment they deserve. I say hang im high and dry !!

 

[heretic888]

The death Penalty is a great deterrent to heinous crimes. Without it we would have all the John Wayne Gayce, and the Ted Bundys walking amongst us. One of those two punks is underage. Chances are he would be set free. There are countries that would boil these two nutsacks in a heartbeat.

I don't want to be the Tax payer that is sheltering and feeding the nutbags in prisons because of the numerous appeals which wastes man hours and money. In other words you want to save a covicted murderer from being annihilated, well then pay for it yourself.

By treating nutcases in this manner, we are encouraging behavior that will result in a prison sentence. If there is no threat of the death penalty to one who commits a murder, than that person is guaranteed to be provided with a decent living environment until their next parole hearing.

They are definitely not getting the punishment they deserve. I say hang im high and dry !!

Amusing ideology aside, there are two glaring problems here:

1) State executions cost more than life imprisonments.

2) Capital punishment has not statistically been demonstrated to deter violent crime, most likely because the majority of such crimes are ones of "passion" rather than being premeditated.

Laterz.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Guys also get laughs out of giving each other wedgies, seeing guys get hit in the groin, watching people slip and slide on a patch of ice gets a chuckle, the three stooges. Drawing some conclusion that the criminal justice system is flawed because guys laugh at other people in these situations is a BIG leap.

I can't imagine our criminal justice system being flawed in any way.
Sean

 

[MJS]

So you're saying that these kids could not determine that there is a difference between a ring sport, and taking a baseball bat to someone? Come on.

No it was just to make a point of violence being entertaining.I don't know the kids nor their mental state so I couldn't tell you if they did,the human mind is a complex thing.

Yes, what you're trying to say. When I was young, I loved the roadrunner and the coyote. Of course, the coyote took the majority of the abuse during the entire show. I found the show entertaining, but still knew better and understood that if I held an explosive in my hand, alot more would happen than my body turning black from the explosion and a circle of birds flying over my head.

.....saying that though I really need to thank you mjs...after I left work you had winded me up so bad I needed a drink so I thought forget the gym tonight and instead off I went to a bar with a workmate and then proceeded to chat up the bar manager and got her number,managed to get hustled by a girl playing pool and got her number (so I still kinder won) and got the number of this beautiful Mediterranean girl with a bum that would make you cry,so thanks to you dude I've got dates all week.(")thanks man!

:ultracool

 

[MJS]

Yeah no worries,i dont know if I said it before I kind of go on this site when i should be working so I tend to just copy and paster stuff rather then using your quote feature,no worries though I'll bare that in mind.

Okay kill them all is abit strong but their is a vibe of lock them up and forget about it...I just think we should not just take nor judge on face value,I dont believe that some people can just be 'plain evil' the human mind is far to complexed then that...now I dont have an answer,I just think more time should go into research to find out how these things happen and then maybe something can be done to spot the signs of a 'violent crimminal' before they reach the justice system....and then there are all my points on the whole everything happend for a reason thing and people behave in ways that have reflected the lives and childhoods.

Keep in mind that not everyone is capable to being rehabilitated. I used to laugh when I would see inmates heading off to AA, Bible study, anger mgt. classes, etc. First off, I highly doubt that these people were attending these classes before they ended up in jail. If they were, maybe they would not be there in the first place. Second, I've seen the same faces over and over. Rehab does not always work. If it did, why are they coming back to jail??

 

[Lisa]

Keep in mind that not everyone is capable to being rehabilitated. I used to laugh when I would see inmates heading off to AA, Bible study, anger mgt. classes, etc. First off, I highly doubt that these people were attending these classes before they ended up in jail. If they were, maybe they would not be there in the first place. Second, I've seen the same faces over and over. Rehab does not always work. If it did, why are they coming back to jail??

I have an uncle who worked in a prison. After that many years he became a very jaded person when it came to the topic of rehabilitation. He said seeing the same prisoners come through the system over and over each time claiming to have found god/a 12 step program or whatever made it truly hard to believe that anyone could or would change their ways. When asked if he ever met one that did, he would say, not in my 30 years experience.

 

[Martial Tucker]

I have an uncle who worked in a prison. After that many years he became a very jaded person when it came to the topic of rehabilitation. He said seeing the same prisoners come through the system over and over each time claiming to have found god/a 12 step program or whatever made it truly hard to believe that anyone could or would change their ways. When asked if he ever met one that did, he would say, not in my 30 years experience.

And I wonder how many of those prisoners that he knew in his 30 years of experience were ultimately released early, and then killed someone else......

 

[MJS]

I have an uncle who worked in a prison. After that many years he became a very jaded person when it came to the topic of rehabilitation. He said seeing the same prisoners come through the system over and over each time claiming to have found god/a 12 step program or whatever made it truly hard to believe that anyone could or would change their ways. When asked if he ever met one that did, he would say, not in my 30 years experience.

Good point Lisa.

IMHO, rehab is only going to work if the person does their part. Its no different than teaching someone the Martial Arts. The student comes to the teacher to learn. The teacher does his/her part, by teaching the student. Now, its up to the student to do their part, by working on the material on thier own. If they don't, they have nobody to blame but themselves.

The programs offered in the jails/prisons, are again IMO, an excuse for the inmate to get out of the cell block for "X" amount of time.

By constantly seeing repeat offenders, that tells me, that the person has no desire to better themselves.

Mike

 

[shesulsa]

I have an uncle who worked in a prison. After that many years he became a very jaded person when it came to the topic of rehabilitation. He said seeing the same prisoners come through the system over and over each time claiming to have found god/a 12 step program or whatever made it truly hard to believe that anyone could or would change their ways. When asked if he ever met one that did, he would say, not in my 30 years experience.

The environments in prison/jail and the outside are SO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT that this transition from hardened criminal to productive citizen is extremely difficult to make - most reoffend, of course, because three hots and a cot are hard to give up. Having a record makes getting another productive job with much more than minimum wage and an apartment in the rough part of town damn near impossible. You can place a safe bet that anyone doing more than two years will most likely have been "institutionalized" and will reoffend.

And I wonder about the quality of in-house rehabilitation programs. When my ex worked at juvie, the teachers would hardly teach the kids a thing telling them they were worthless pieces of crap and not worth teaching, that once they got into the system they'd likely be in the system to some degree for the rest of their lives, etc. I'm not saying this happens everywhere. And it must be easy to lose hope when you keep seeing the same faces.

Behaviors are hard to change, especially when no one cares to understand them (most importantly the one who owns them).

 

[arnisador]

The death Penalty is a great deterrent to heinous crimes.

Evidence for this is at best mixed.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

A lot of stuff I read on the internet about recidivism talks about how these prisoners got out of prison and couldnt find a job and thats what led them back to crime. While part of me thinks that perhaps if these guys could get a job then they wouldnt reoffend, another part of me thinks that there are plenty of unemployed people who dont commit crimes. It sounds like an excuse to me. You guys didnt fix me and set me loose so its YOUR fault that I robbed, raped, did drugs and so on. Theres a big piece of personal responsibility that seems to be missing. I dont know, just what is rehab supposed to be? I see a lot of "we dont put enough into rehab" but I cant find much that explains what an effective program is supposed to have.

 

[jdinca]

The death Penalty is a great deterrent to heinous crimes.

Sorry, not the way it's currently enforced. Someone sentenced to death knows that they have 15-20 years before it happens, and they may get a reduced sentence during that time.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Evidence for this is at best mixed.

That is completely untrue. In fact the opposite is true. Scucidal people will often times use the state as a method of killing themselves and making a big name for them selves, or take away the the people they feel are a threat to their victim mentality all in the same fell swoop. It is why you constantly hear them beg for death when captured. Its not because they feel they have done something wrong, but because they are completely overwhelmed by their lives and are to cowardly take the initiative and to selfish to spare us all the drama.
Sean

 

[Akashiro Tamaya]

It amazes me that felons finds "god" while incarcerated or on death row. Why could they not seek "god" while free, no wait ! I know why because they are too busy doing the deeds they thought they could get away with.

 

[heretic888]

The environments in prison/jail and the outside are SO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT that this transition from hardened criminal to productive citizen is extremely difficult to make - most reoffend, of course, because three hots and a cot are hard to give up. Having a record makes getting another productive job with much more than minimum wage and an apartment in the rough part of town damn near impossible. You can place a safe bet that anyone doing more than two years will most likely have been "institutionalized" and will reoffend.

And I wonder about the quality of in-house rehabilitation programs. When my ex worked at juvie, the teachers would hardly teach the kids a thing telling them they were worthless pieces of crap and not worth teaching, that once they got into the system they'd likely be in the system to some degree for the rest of their lives, etc. I'm not saying this happens everywhere. And it must be easy to lose hope when you keep seeing the same faces.

Behaviors are hard to change, especially when no one cares to understand them (most importantly the one who owns them).

Bingo. :asian: