Young Sociopaths

[modarnis]

Luckily for me, as a prosecutor, I deal with these jackals after they are arrested, so I have the benefit of knowing what they are when I meet them.

Innocent until proven guilty hey??dman that statement you just made really worries me.


Glad you presume to know me. If you bothered to read what was written, I was making a distinction between a poster who is a police officer, who goes into situations without knowing anything about the details of the event and myself, who as an officer of the court receives reports on what happened, obviously after and removed from the actual situation.

If a person were being held, there would be a finding of probable cause either by a warrant being reviewed by a judge before the arrest or in the instance of an on site arrest by the police, a finding on probable cause by the judge at the first presentment. Probable cause is the standard for arrests to be made (the seizure of the person under the fourth amendment). While this is not the same standard necessary for proof at trial, it is a basis to hold the person and set bail while there case is pending.

Odin, since you seem to have the answers tell us what should happen when people are accused of violent crimes. How can they be fixed? What evidence can you provide that they can be fixed? What are the recidivism rates of persons aged 16-25 accused of violent felonies who have their first criminal cases disposed of through a diversionary program? Same question if they are placed on probation or parole?

I might suggest reading something about criminal law and procedure, patterns of criminal behavior, or have some basic understanding of the multitude of programs and diversionary options available to accused persons in many if not all of the 50 states. It is rather obvious from your posts that you do not deal directly with criminals in your day to day endeavors, nor do you have any real grasp of how the American criminal justice system works. Your profile doesn't say where you are from, but your use of words like bum and mates would lead me to believe you aren't an American, so you may not be familiar with many of the realities of our system, our crime issues, or our criminals

 

[Kreth]

Odin, please learn to use the forum's quote function. Your posts are very difficult to read. Now to a couple of your points.

I just think that maybe we should look at the reasons behind things.who knows though maybe Im wrong.

These kids commited a violent crime, showing a complete indifference for human life. What possible justification can there be for that?

Hey maybe Im wrong maybe we should just lock em up and kill them all hey!king kong syndrome lets just destroy anything we dont understand!yeah!

No one is saying "kill them all." Several of us have said that the perpetrators in this case should be dealt with swiftly and harshly.

 

[Odin]

Odin, please learn to use the forum's quote function. Your posts are very difficult to read. Now to a couple of your points.
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These kids commited a violent crime, showing a complete indifference for human life. What possible justification can there be for that?


No one is saying "kill them all." Several of us have said that the perpetrators in this case should be dealt with swiftly and harshly.

Yeah no worries,i dont know if I said it before I kind of go on this site when i should be working so I tend to just copy and paster stuff rather then using your quote feature,no worries though I'll bare that in mind.

Okay kill them all is abit strong but their is a vibe of lock them up and forget about it...I just think we should not just take nor judge on face value,I dont believe that some people can just be 'plain evil' the human mind is far to complexed then that...now I dont have an answer,I just think more time should go into research to find out how these things happen and then maybe something can be done to spot the signs of a 'violent crimminal' before they reach the justice system....and then there are all my points on the whole everything happend for a reason thing and people behave in ways that have reflected the lives and childhoods.

 

[Kreth]

Okay kill them all is abit strong but their is a vibe of lock them up and forget about it...I just think we should not just take nor judge on face value,I dont believe that some people can just be 'plain evil' the human mind is far to complexed then that...now I dont have an answer,I just think more time should go into research to find out how these things happen and then maybe something can be done to spot the signs of a 'violent crimminal' before they reach the justice system....and then there are all my points on the whole everything happend for a reason thing and people behave in ways that have reflected the lives and childhoods.

Research is all well and good, but they have commited a crime, and now they should suffer the consequences...

 

[Blotan Hunka]

Dude, what makes you think that people ARENT trying to figure out why people do these things. Hell there are so many sociologists, psychologists, councellors, programs, parole, probation, AA, child protective service workers and ON and ON trying to figure out how to reform these broken people that it seems like theyare trying more to "fix" these people than they are worried about putting them back out on the street while they are still "broken". Maybe the cops+lawyers know better than me, but the rate at which these people recommit crimes after they are let out is high. I dont think you have a real argument here. There are lots of people trying to figure out how to fix these people. Perhaps its like SgtMac said, they arent "broken" in the first place, they were just MADE wrong.

 

[Odin]

Research is all well and good, but they have commited a crime, and now they should suffer the consequences...

hmmmm maybe im wrong then.

 

[Flatlander]

hmmmm maybe im wrong then.

Well, consider this. In Canada, our justice system is predicated on a rehabilitation model, as opposed to pure punishment. We allow that criminals possess the ability to become rehabilitated. With that in mind, we allow for early parole after one third of the original sentence is served. We have no capital punishment. Young offenders names are prohibited from becoming public. Penalties are light, multiple sentences are usually concurrent rather than consecutive.

The result is, too many repeat offences, too many career criminals. Presumably, the system is constantly seeking ways to improve their rehabilitation programs, yet little progress is being made.

So the real question is, where ought our priorities lie? My opinion is that the safety of society should remain paramount. I believe that if someone demonstrates an inability to live within the social paramaters set out by the Criminal Code of Canada, they should lose the priviliges of remaining free within that society.

Further, if someone demonstrates, through repeat offences, that they are unable to become rehabilitated (hey, we all bear responsibility for our willingness to grow and learn), then the we need to consider permanently removing them from our streets. Is there a cost to society for this? Yes, of course. Keeping someone in prison for the rest of their life is an expensive undertaking. Is it a price that we should be prepared to pay? When we consider the consequences of the alternative, I suggest that indeed there is value in footing that bill.

I think that the right of the ordinary citizen who chooses to live within the parameters of the law to be protected from criminals far outweighs the right of the criminal who chooses to behave inappropriately to reintegrate into society. Yes, people make mistakes. But hey, we still bear responsibility for our actions.

 

[Flatlander]

Does this mean that we shouldn't examine the "root causes" of why people make bad choices? No, of course not. But the answer, I believe, lies within approaching that problem while at the same time ensuring that the public can enjoy their lives without becoming victims. Both angles need covering, for the betterment of society.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

My point too. Well said.

 

[arnisador]

Study: Men Enjoy Seeing Bad People Suffer

But a new brain-scanning study suggests that when guys see a cheater get a mild electric shock, they don't feel his pain much at all. In fact, they rather enjoy it.

In contrast, women's brains showed they do empathize with the cheater's pain and don't get a kick out it.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Fine....as long as they're locked up while you are looking into it.

The fact that people sit back and revel at the thought of prisoners, in the United States of America, beacon of light for the rest of the world to follow, being sodomized and abused for like crimes is exactly the same mentality that got these homeless men killed. They didn't feel the homeless men deserved humane treatment for being homeless or less than human. Do we view the abusing punks as sub-human? Probably; so, lets bring them to some real pain. ect.
Sean

 

[Martial Tucker]

The fact that people sit back and revel at the thought of prisoners, in the United States of America, beacon of light for the rest of the world to follow, being sodomized and abused for like crimes is exactly the same mentality that got these homeless men killed. They didn't feel the homeless men deserved humane treatment for being homeless or less than human. Do we view the abusing punks as sub-human? Probably; so, lets bring them to some real pain. ect.
Sean

First of all, the homeless men that were attacked did nothing to deserve their fate. The attackers did. They made a concious choice to go out and brutally attack helpless people. Huge difference. It's not "the same mentality".

Secondly, since you quoted me, I never said I "revel" in anyone else's pain or discomfort. I view incarceration of violent people as being 90% "keep them off the streets so they don't do it again", vs. 10% "punishment".
For that matter, I'm sure many hard core criminals don't even view inprisonment as punishment. Fine. I just want them locked up so they don't do it again. I would certainly be curious as to why they did what they did. Perhaps we could learn something useful from such knowledge. But, regardless of their motives, they have proven themselves to be dangerous, and to have a total disregard for the law and their fellow citizens, and for that they should not be running free on the streets.

That's all I ever said, and I stand by that statement.

 

[heretic888]

First of all, the homeless men that were attacked did nothing to deserve their fate. The attackers did. They made a concious choice to go out and brutally attack helpless people. Huge difference. It's not "the same mentality".

Actually, it is. There are just different justifications for it.

Mind you, your justifications may indeed be valid and are most definately more "rational" than those of the criminals in question. However, let's not make this into something it's not. It is psychologically necessary to de-humanize others and emotionally distance ourselves from them --- usually with tell-tale labels like "inhuman", "evil", "monster", "filth", "scum", etc. --- in order to internally justify causing them harm.

For an in-depth study into the nature of both victim and perpetrator psychology, I would suggest picking up Roy Baumeister's Evil: Inside Human Violence and Cruelty, in which examines the myth of "evil".

Laterz.

 

[Martial Tucker]

Actually, it is. There are just different justifications for it.

Mind you, your justifications may indeed be valid and are most definately more "rational" than those of the criminals in question. However, let's not make this into something it's not.

I'm sorry, but I made a simple, direct statement that the attackers should be locked up, primarily to protect society from their demonstrated violent tendencies. Not sure how that is "making this into something that it is not"

For an in-depth study into the nature of both victim and perpetrator psychology, I would suggest picking up Roy Baumeister's Evil: Inside Human Violence and Cruelty, in which examines the myth of "evil".

Laterz.

heretic, I have read many of your posts in other debates on this forum, and have come away with the feeling that you are both extremely intelligent and highly educated. That's not to say that I've always agreed with you, but I will say that I might just pick up a copy of the book,since you recommend it, just to try to understand your point, and for an apparently different point of view. Suffice it to say though, my attitude towards incarceration is very "centrally held".

 

[heretic888]

I'm sorry, but I made a simple, direct statement that the attackers should be locked up, primarily to protect society from their demonstrated violent tendencies.

On that much, we can agree.

heretic, I have read many of your posts in other debates on this forum, and have come away with the feeling that you are both extremely intelligent and highly educated. That's not to say that I've always agreed with you, but I will say that I might just pick up a copy of the book,since you recommend it, just to try to understand your point, and for an apparently different point of view.

Good times.

Laterz.

 

[Akashiro Tamaya]

Plain and simple Justice ! Hang em high ! those pychoes that preys on the innocents. You don't need to stinking phycology or "roots" to determine why they kill and prey on the innocents. An eye for an eye !

 

[Touch Of Death]

Plain and simple Justice ! Hang em high ! those pychoes that preys on the innocents. You don't need to stinking phycology or "roots" to determine why they kill and prey on the innocents. An eye for an eye !

Yeah and those homeless people feeding off those that work for a living. They Know they can prey on "us". Something should be done about them too... the stinkin' drunks! The Tax money spent trying to help them is worth more than most of their lives: Eye For an Eye!.. and not the biblical call for restraint but the cruel misunderstanding will suffice for those bums!
Sean

 

[Blotan Hunka]

So we'll stop putting them in prison and let them all stay at your place.

 

[Blotan Hunka]

No such thing as Evil? Is it better to torture a child, or to hug that child?

Keep peddling your anti-religion ****.

A recent review of several studies suggests that spirituality is linked with low suicide rates, less alcohol and drug abuse, less criminal behavior, fewer divorces and higher marital satisfaction (Religion and Clinical Practice, 1996).

 

[Akashiro Tamaya]

Is it better to torture a child, or to hug that child?

Depends, is the child a murderer ? Tortured No ! Executed maybe !