Our Society Changing? Of Course... But Where Is It Going??

[Sukerkin]

"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they allow disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children now are tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.” This quote was attributed to Socrates by Plato

I have seen this quote used many times in debate and have indeed used it myself in discourse with my father (when I was much younger) on this very issue.

As with Shihan, I was raised in a way that even then was probably considered old fashioned and was similarly complimented on my manners and bearing. Does it not speak of a change for the worse that I can think of no child I have seen or met for twenty years who was worthy of similar compliments (who was not a member of a religious organisation and out in public)?

So, altho I may have used the Platonic quote myself in past arguments, I do not think it applies truthfully as a counter to the statement of declining values over generations (other than as a warning that such decline does happen and if you don't take steps to reverse it then the civilisation is on the way out).

I now actually do agree with my father because, like he had back then, I now have had the benefit of seeing more than my own generation 'in action'.

 

[crushing]

Yes, Don, screaming out,"You Lie!" to interrupt the President before a joint session of Congress is deplorable.

Correct, the only outbursts and interruptions allowed during the President's speech are those that are in full support of the President. Wilson should just sit down, shut up, and wait for the cue to stand and cheer to show support for President. Actually, it would be nice if Congress kept these outbursts and interruptions to a minimum too. Unfortunately, I haven't seen any discussion in the media about those interruptions.

At any rate, Wilson owned it, knows what he did was wrong, and immediately apologized to the President for his exclamation during the speech. Of course there is still some political gamesmanship going on with regard to Wilson's comment during the speech.

 

[CoryKS]

People are blowing the Wilson thing way out of proportion. Yes, it was rude. But if you want to have the credibility to express outrage over it, you need to refrain from engaging in the same behavior. The Democrats didn't. They boohed Bush during his State of the Union address in 2005. And if they're going to chastise him for it, perhaps they could spare a few words for Pete Stark of California, who called Bush a liar twice in the same speech. And lest people think I'm trying to redirect this back at the Democrats, the Republicans pulled this crap when Clinton was president too. As someone who voted Democrat at the time, I was really hoping they would take the high ground when Bush was elected. Sadly, that didn't happen.

So my point is not to say that it's okay because the other side does it too, I'm just saying that it's dishonest for the Democrats (and the Republicans) to get the vapors over things they were doing just a couple of years ago. If they really think this is bad form, they need to get together and agree not to do it. Otherwise, all this gasping and fainting and bemoaning the plight of our society is just political tactics.

Kanye West, however, remains a d-bag.

 

[girlbug2]

I hold the door for people, address people I don't know by "Sir" or "Ma'am", excuse myself from a conversation if I need to take a phone call(I don't interrupt other people's calls either), use good table manners, engage waitstaff and store clerks with civility, remove my hat indoors, defer to elders, and treat others with general courtesy. I am raising my son to do the same. I think it is telling of our culture, although it does make me very proud of him, how often people compliment me on my son's manners. See, I don't think that the fact that he address's adults by Mister or Miss, doesn't interrupt them when they speak, and behaves himself like a gentleman in public is noteworthy.It is the behavior I expect out of him

At night, a lone candle shines brighter than the sun

 

[Xue Sheng]

Let me ask this is the Wilson thing worse than the Fort Sumter thing or the Titanic thing or the McCarthy thing or the Cuban thing or the Watts thing or the Democratic National Convention thing or the Booth thing or the Manson thing?

Very likely no......

And did any of these change our society?

Well yes they did....

Is society the same now as it was in 1963 or 1969 or 1972 0r 1985 or 1995 or 2005 for that matter?

Nope....

Who is right or wrong in anything dealing with political figures will generally break down to party loyalty as to who is right or wrong and that, IMO, is a waste of time and geneally stops actual discussion.

And this has already been said but it is not a justification to do something that is wrong just because the other side did it before. It was wrong then and it is wrong now.

Kanye West, however, remains a d-bag.

And for the first time I heard fitty cent say simething I liked about something and it was about Kanye West

"I wish he would try and take one of my awards so I could black his eye - fitty cent"

He also noticed that Kanye didn't try and take anything from Pink :EG:

 

[Big Don]

Day by Day makes a good point about racism.

 

[Big Don]

Wasn't it Jimmy Carter who supported "Ethnically pure neighborhoods"?
Yeah, until it became inconvenient for him to.

 

[Sukerkin]

Don, my friend, not everything is about Republican greatness and Democrat debauchery. Politics is part of life, yes, that is very true. I also know that this is something about which you feel incredibly strongly.

But I think, really, this thread is about more than the charade that is the political circus. it is about the actual fabric of society itself, the place where the real people live.

 

[elder999]

H. ).
It's too broad a picture to pin point where the changes have taken place.
But they're there and now becoming more evident.

What does this say about the next generation? What type of future is being built for them? What type of society is being nurtured as children of today are growing up into these increasingly coarser role-models?

Thoughts, discussion... think upon it as many of you interact with students in the Dojo are there changes that you see in and outside?

I tried covering some of this in this thread :

I continue to be amazed at how willing many people are to accept the abysmal standards of society’s lowest common denominators. Yes, I realize it is symptomatic of a decaying, increasingly destructive culture. Perhaps what amazes me most is the rapidity with which the collapse of this society is occurring.

Last week we were in the bookstore. We took our selections to the counter to pay, and there was a very nice looking, well dressed, white haired older woman in front of us. During the course of paying for her purchases she used the “f” word twice. The clerk appeared totally unfazed by the woman’s language. A friend told me of driving in Santa Fe, when an older woman almost hit him. He honked the horn, and she flipped him off. It was summer, their windows were rolled down, so he said “Que pasa con usted, senora? Usted es abuelita, y debe que ser ejemplo. Que verguenza (“What’s the matter with you? You’re a grandmother, who ought to be a role model. Shame on you.”) She replied, “**** you!.” My friend, who was raised in a very traditional Northern New Mexican/Spanish family, was appalled. When he told me about it, he still couldn’t believe it had happened. I wish I could say that things like this were the exception, but they aren’t. They’re the norm. Several generations in this country have been raised with minimal, if any, social skills. Many in the generations preceding them, who ought to know better, have abandoned the higher standards that once prevailed. It seems as if just about anything goes. The prevailing standard today is “Give me mine, and get out of my way.”

The triumph of vulgarity can regularly be seen in every area of life. In politics, it’s simply taken for granted that higher morals and standards will not influence political decisions. Political life seems determined by special interests that are unconnected to any traditional ideas of community or justice. Religion seems equally plagued and crippled by seeking to be relevant to popular culture. I’m not speaking here to those who insist on enacting their personal moral code into law; they condemn themselves. I’m speaking of how religion has abandoned its duty to inform the development of a person’s conscience.

In entertainment, the triumph of vulgarity is most evident. I recently say an advertisement for a sci-fi show where an animated character simulates sexual intercourse with the Creator of the universe, referring to it as the “big bang.” This is disrespectful; it is vulgar; most disturbing of all, it is insane. One of my teachers, a Native American, once told me a story of leaving his traditional community and moving to Los Angeles, where he got a job. His grandfather came to visit, and didn’t seem to be enjoying himself. He asked, “Grandfather, I’ve taken you to so many beautiful places here and shown you so many wonderful things. You haven’t made any comment. You’ve simply sat quietly and stared. What’s the matter?” His grandfather looked at him in amazement and replied, "Grandson, can’t you see that these people are not in their right minds?” I’m not sharing this with you in order to attack Los Angeles. I do, however, want to use it as an example for the society at large. You cannot remain long in a dysfunctional environment without being affected by it, both internally and externally. I’ve met wonderful people who live in Los Angeles, but it is difficult for them to remain there. They have to be very careful not to be transformed by its chaos. Los Angeles is not the only such place, nor is it the worst. It is simply one of the most dramatic.

 

[celtic_crippler]

"The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they allow disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children now are tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers.” This quote was attributed to Socrates by Plato

I have seen this quote used many times in debate and have indeed used it myself in discourse with my father (when I was much younger) on this very issue.

As with Shihan, I was raised in a way that even then was probably considered old fashioned and was similarly complimented on my manners and bearing. Does it not speak of a change for the worse that I can think of no child I have seen or met for twenty years who was worthy of similar compliments (who was not a member of a religious organisation and out in public)?

So, altho I may have used the Platonic quote myself in past arguments, I do not think it applies truthfully as a counter to the statement of declining values over generations (other than as a warning that such decline does happen and if you don't take steps to reverse it then the civilisation is on the way out).

I now actually do agree with my father because, like he had back then, I now have had the benefit of seeing more than my own generation 'in action'.

Amazing how that trend seems to repeat itself over and over and over from one major civilzation to another...

It was true of the Roman Empire as well. In the final days before the fall there was a push for a return to "Roman Values" but it failed miserably.

And now...many hundreds of years later...here we are again. But why?

Because we're humans and we repeatedly follow the same behaviors even though we know from history they will doom us. It's a miracle we haven't gone extinct really...LOL

In every case as civiliaztions gained prominence and wealth the citizens grew lazier and lazier and expected the "government" to provide more and more.

In every case a strong working class with solid ethics gave way to a smaller wealthy class (in the majority of cases ending up as an Oligarchy) and larger poorer class.

I could go on, but what's the point? History repeats itself.... Those that don't learn from History are doomed to repeat it.... yadda-yadda-yadda.

It's not necessarily a matter of changing "how" we do things as much as changing who we are. Maybe?

Or maybe we're doomed to repeat hitory over and over. The universe and nature are cyclical things...and we're part of that. Maybe it's our destiny to continue to screw things up. I'd love to be proven wrong, but History has a strong argument.

 

[elder999]

Of course, when society has fallen, and what's left of us are fighting each other tooth and nail for the basics: food, water, shelter, security-we'll be a lot more polite, since armed people generally make for polite company........or shorter conversations, anyway...

 

[Xue Sheng]

Amazing how that trend seems to repeat itself over and over and over from one major civilzation to another...

It was true of the Roman Empire as well. In the final days before the fall there was a push for a return to "Roman Values" but it failed miserably.

And now...many hundreds of years later...here we are again. But why?

Because everything has an expiration date, it is just easier to find in a grocery store

 

[celtic_crippler]

Of course, when society has fallen, and what's left of us are fighting each other tooth and nail for the basics: food, water, shelter, security-we'll be a lot more polite, since armed people generally make for polite company........or shorter conversations, anyway...

The opponents of the 2nd ammendment would never swallow that.

Because everything has an expiration date, it is just easier to find in a grocery store

What kind of wine you been drinking? :burp:

 

[elder999]

The opponents of the 2nd ammendment would never swallow that.

They'll be scambling for their guns along with the rest of us, when the food riots start......:lfao:

 

[celtic_crippler]

They'll be scambling for their guns along with the rest of us, when the food riots start......:lfao:

More likely they'll be shot by the rest of us as they don't believe in "guns". Sorry...there's only one jar of Jiff left and it's mine!

 

[Xue Sheng]

What kind of wine you been drinking? :burp:

Well since I only drink Chinese wine and the Chinese only have 2 classifications for alcohol which are beer and wine

Beer for all things that are beer and wine for all those things that are not beer... to be honest I really don't know... but I will say I can't find an expiration date anywhere on the bottle

 

[celtic_crippler]

Well since I only drink Chinese wine and the Chinese only have 2 classifications for alcohol which are beer and wine

Beer for all things that are beer and wine for all those things that are not beer... to be honest I really don't know... but I will say I can't find an expiration date anywhere on the bottle

If you're drinking wine with an expiration date on the bottle you're in trouble. ROFL :lol:

 

[grydth]

Not when he is a liar it isn't. Why is an HONEST description deplorable? Had he NOT shouted it out on the House floor, it would have got ZERO coverage in the "News Media" which, is sadly becoming an association of apologists for Obama, and other Democrats and their screw upsNo, you said:
Which, if it wasn't meant to imply racism on the part of Wilson and his donors, is what?

Don, should I ever reach a truly desperate condition whereby I need you to interpret the true meaning/motive/inferences of what I write here, I will PM you. Until that time, kindly refrain from doing so.

What is deplorable is the time and place and method which Wilson used. What is of more concern is that people are rewarding and defending his action when even he has admitted it was wrong.

 

[grydth]

People are blowing the Wilson thing way out of proportion. Yes, it was rude. But if you want to have the credibility to express outrage over it, you need to refrain from engaging in the same behavior. The Democrats didn't. They boohed Bush during his State of the Union address in 2005. And if they're going to chastise him for it, perhaps they could spare a few words for Pete Stark of California, who called Bush a liar twice in the same speech. And lest people think I'm trying to redirect this back at the Democrats, the Republicans pulled this crap when Clinton was president too. As someone who voted Democrat at the time, I was really hoping they would take the high ground when Bush was elected. Sadly, that didn't happen.

So my point is not to say that it's okay because the other side does it too, I'm just saying that it's dishonest for the Democrats (and the Republicans) to get the vapors over things they were doing just a couple of years ago. If they really think this is bad form, they need to get together and agree not to do it. Otherwise, all this gasping and fainting and bemoaning the plight of our society is just political tactics.

Kanye West, however, remains a d-bag.

The conduct is wrong no matter who is doing it, and the fact that both sides engage in it is even more proof of our downward spiral.

One may recall that Ann Coulter and other conservatives were hit with pies when trying to make public appearances.... this was simply trying to hide the use of violence to prevent opposing viewpoints behind supposed slapstick comedy.

Outside the US, the turd who called President Bush a dog and threw shoes at him is being made into a bogus hero in the Middle East.

The behavior is wrong, no matter who it is directed at and who is doing it. Once this becomes commonplace, and then accepted and rewarded, intelligent discourse dies. The end won't come long after that.

 

[celtic_crippler]

What is deplorable is the time and place and method which Wilson used. What is of more concern is that people are rewarding and defending his action when even he has admitted it was wrong.

Now I'm not saying it wasn't rude...but...

You have to admit the look on Pelosi's face was classic. ROFL "gasp!" I laugh every time I see that....lol

At any rate, he apologized and Obama accepted. I think that should be the end of it. Move on dot org already.

I may feel differently had Wilson not been correct, though.

If you want to discuss inappropriate behavior you'd be better off talking about Charlie Rangle.