Young black belts, no problem - young grandmaster...hmm?

[andyjeffries]

Yes but I was wondering what the official KKW line or reasoning or symbolisim is. I don't remember seeing it in the official KKW textbook

Me neither... I'm full of Boxing Day lunch so can't be bothered to go and check either

Hope you had a good Christmas (and Boxing Day if you celebrate it).

 

[puunui]

Whether they should be a master or GM in their 20s or even 30s is a different question, but from a student's point of view I don't imagine most would care and would trust the certifying authority that gave them the grade.

Sinmoo Hapkido GM JI Han Jae was 8th Dan when he was 29, 9th Dan when he was 35 and 10th Dan when he was 47. His student, GM MYUNG Kwang Sik, was 6th Dan at 27, 7th Dan at 29, 8th Dan at 33, and 9th Dan at 47.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Me neither... I'm full of Boxing Day lunch so can't be bothered to go and check either

Hope you had a good Christmas (and Boxing Day if you celebrate it).

Thank you...I love Christmas...I don't celebrate Boxing Day but maybe I'll start...a friend of mine says Happy St. Stephen's Day!

 

[terryl965]

Sinmoo Hapkido GM JI Han Jae was 8th Dan when he was 29, 9th Dan when he was 35 and 10th Dan when he was 47. His student, GM MYUNG Kwang Sik, was 6th Dan at 27, 7th Dan at 29, 8th Dan at 33, and 9th Dan at 47.

But if you go by the KKW textbook and age requirement they set up they all would have been to young.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

But if you go by the KKW textbook and age requirement they set up they all would have been to young.

True & the same for the ITF. However in Gen Choi's 1965 book, the 1st English book on TKD he states Dan promotions were every 2 years. He modifies that after the ITF was formed in Seoul Korea in 1966

 

[andyjeffries]

Sinmoo Hapkido GM JI Han Jae was 8th Dan when he was 29, 9th Dan when he was 35 and 10th Dan when he was 47. His student, GM MYUNG Kwang Sik, was 6th Dan at 27, 7th Dan at 29, 8th Dan at 33, and 9th Dan at 47.

But that was at a different period... at the same timescale we thought having children out working at 10 years old was acceptable. Times have moved on and while I don't think any worse (or better) for the founders having achieved such early grades at young ages, I also don't think it's acceptable these days.

I wonder whether they would think it's acceptable to grade someone to 9th Dan in their 30s these days?... Obviously the Kukkiwon doesn't, but I wonder for those that achieved 9th Dan young...

 

[andyjeffries]

Thank you...I love Christmas...I don't celebrate Boxing Day but maybe I'll start...a friend of mine says Happy St. Stephen's Day!

We don't really do much to celebrate over here, but we'll often have family round (or go round a family member's house) and have a big lunch and a few drinks (kind of how I imagine Thanksgiving to be). It's also nice because it makes Christmas more of a two-day event

 

[chrispillertkd]

We don't really do much to celebrate over here, but we'll often have family round (or go round a family member's house) and have a big lunch and a few drinks (kind of how I imagine Thanksgiving to be). It's also nice because it makes Christmas more of a two-day event

Two days? Crickey, man. Christmas lasts from Christmas Eve until the Epiphany! It's sad that people often get sick of Christmas by Dec. 24. That's when the celebrating actually starts

Pax and Merry Christmas,

Chris

 

[Tez3]

Two days? Crickey, man. Christmas lasts from Christmas Eve until the Epiphany! It's sad that people often get sick of Christmas by Dec. 24. That's when the celebrating actually starts

Pax and Merry Christmas,

Chris

Christmas must be over, Tesco, a supermarket chain here, has Easter eggs in it's shops now!

 

[andyjeffries]

Christmas must be over, Tesco, a supermarket chain here, has Easter eggs in it's shops now!

I'm avoiding the shops but I can imagine it. Normally they have a couple of days of bargain Xmas items at knock down prices then they're on to the next thing...

 

[IcemanSK]

My guess is that the newspaper article author got it wrong in the writing of the piece.

I was once interviewed by a reporter re: self-defense. The reporter began interviewing the receptionist of the community center where I held classes. Despite the fact that the majority of the interview was with me, the reporter used what I said & often stated "she said x, y, & z." If one watched the interview & then read the article (or just read read the article) it would make no sense as to who actually said what. I couldn't believe it got past an editor.

This article in the OP: the editor probably has no clue between a 27 year old 8th Dan & a 60 year old 8th Dan.

 

[hal-apino]

I have no problem with under 16s getting poom grades. There are even 8 year olds I'd recommend for 1st Poom (Frederik Olsen from Denmark is one). I'd prefer they wear half red/half black belts, but I'm not really offended if they wear black.

But I'd argue there's a world of difference between a young child having 1st poom (which only means they know the basics competently) and a young man having a grandmaster's grade (which means he is mature enough to grade others to 7th Dan and should be helping setting policy).

Based on what your saying then it seems to me that it should be based on the individual and not the age. My point was that I am not certain that many 6,7 or 8 year olds have the mature level to hold a black belt! I am just saying the same holds true for students who have to pay respect to the "black belts" it seems to me it is the same. Black belts are the seniors in the school and who all other students do in fact follow, or so I thought.

 

[KarateMomUSA]

Based on what your saying then it seems to me that it should be based on the individual and not the age. My point was that I am not certain that many 6,7 or 8 year olds have the mature level to hold a black belt! I am just saying the same holds true for students who have to pay respect to the "black belts" it seems to me it is the same. Black belts are the seniors in the school and who all other students do in fact follow, or so I thought.

I guess it comes down to definitions of mature & black belt. To me a kid is a kid. We are all born as baby infants, then grow to be older "kids" or children. Then we are no longer a child when we enter the teen years (13 = thirTEEN) & become a TEENager. However some may still say they are still "kids"
So I like the concept of Gen Choi's junior black belt which is exactly half white & half black. According to his 6 belt color scheme, white among other concepts, signifies innocence. Black, the opposite of white on the color scheme signifies maturity, among other concepts.
So mixing the 2 colors to me is the perfect mix & helps solve this problem. It allows the recognition of the skill acquired, that they are no longer a beginner & have grasped the physical basic techniques. While it also symbolizes the obvious lack of maturity!
This problem is addressed by not only making the junior black belt to wear this special junior belt of half white & half black until they become at teen at the age of thirteen (13), but by limiting them to 1st degree until they are 14.5 years old. The clock that requires at least 1.5 years to go from I Dan to II Dan does not start till they are 13. A further ITF restriction was added by Gen Choi that the age of 9 is needed for 1st degree.

So little Mary gets her 1st degree at 9, but wheres the junior black belt till she turns 13. She can not be a 2nd degree till she turns at least 14.5 at the earliest. So when people see Sissy Mary crying at 9 as she is afraid to sleep in the dark, or beginning taken to the dojang by the hand, not even allowed to cross the steet or go to a public bathroom by herself, they won't be confused when they she that yes she is a black belt, but a junior black belt, as she like all kids lack maturity, along with some adults we all know. Obviously the younger you go the more clear the points are.
I also like the Kukki TKD Poom system, named & created by Dr Kim from examples of the Korean civil service system.
The point is that each entity must have a logical way to handle this inherent conflict

 

[andyjeffries]

I guess it comes down to definitions of mature & black belt. To me a kid is a kid. We are all born as baby infants, then grow to be older "kids" or children. Then we are no longer a child when we enter the teen years (13 = thirTEEN) & become a TEENager. However some may still say they are still "kids"

I would classify kids as being more encompassing. I would say you're either a kid or an adult, with the changeover happening at 18. If you have a new baby over here people will often say "I hear you just had a kid, congratulations" so in the UK kid means child and they don't stop being a child (even a teenager is a kid/child) until 18.

I pretty much agree with the rest of your post, would prefer them to wear a poom belt and I certainly consider them an Nth Poom not an Nth Dan but black belts are quite common. I wouldn't ever mistake a 9 year old black belt for a person of maturity and instructor level

 

[sawyer280769]

I agree, It has to be a typo. I have been a member of te TAGB for over 25 years on and off. As stated previously Dave Oliver is an 8th degree as are other founder members of the TAGB and they have been doingTKD for nearly 40 years

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Sinmoo Hapkido GM JI Han Jae was 8th Dan when he was 29, 9th Dan when he was 35 and 10th Dan when he was 47. His student, GM MYUNG Kwang Sik, was 6th Dan at 27, 7th Dan at 29, 8th Dan at 33, and 9th Dan at 47.

But that was at a different period... at the same timescale we thought having children out working at 10 years old was acceptable. Times have moved on and while I don't think any worse (or better) for the founders having achieved such early grades at young ages, I also don't think it's acceptable these days.

I wonder whether they would think it's acceptable to grade someone to 9th Dan in their 30s these days?... Obviously the Kukkiwon doesn't, but I wonder for those that achieved 9th Dan young...

Andy, I'm not really understanding what your issue is on this topic. You state you don't have any issues with a child being a black belt. I disagree of course, but lets go with your perspective for a moment and see where it leads. GM Ji Han Jae was born in 1936 and didn't begin under Choi, Yung Sul until the age of 13. So, doing a little math, he was an 8th Dan within 16 years. Who ranked him to 8th Dan? And beyond that, if he did it, why can't someone else do it as well? Perhaps this young man skipped rank. I know you wouldn't have any issue with that as you've benefited from this yourself on the basis of the recommedation of your GM. Perhaps this was his case as well.

Perhaps they use an abbreviated TIG. The 'normal standard' really isn't a standard. It is in use by some organizations, but not all. It isn't a universal rule of law that must be abided by for all. Perhaps it was a combination of abbreviated TIG and skipped Dan ranks. Perhaps it was self-promotion, but then he wouldn't have been the first to self-promote or shop for rank by organization-hopping. Their is martial historical precedence for that as well is there not?

I didn't see in the article at what age he started, perhaps he was one of those 4 year old BB's many don't have a problem with? In which case he has 24 years under his belt which is 1/3 longer than GM Ji Han Jae.

So...what's the issue? Seriously.

 

[andyjeffries]

Andy, I'm not really understanding what your issue is on this topic. You state you don't have any issues with a child being a black belt.

I'm OK with children hold poom rank, not full dan rank.

I disagree of course, but lets go with your perspective for a moment and see where it leads. GM Ji Han Jae was born in 1936 and didn't begin under Choi, Yung Sul until the age of 13. So, doing a little math, he was an 8th Dan within 16 years. Who ranked him to 8th Dan? And beyond that, if he did it, why can't someone else do it as well?

Because that was a different time. 50 years ago there were few/no 8/9th dan grandmasters, so at the time getting more people to that rank was generally acceptable. As I said, at that time children were up cleaning chimneys and people thought smoking was beneficial with no side effects. Things are different now.

Perhaps this young man skipped rank. I know you wouldn't have any issue with that as you've benefited from this yourself on the basis of the recommedation of your GM. Perhaps this was his case as well.

I have no issue with skipping rank providing you have TIG and meet the minimum age requirements. In this the Kukkiwon implicitly agrees because there are minimum ages for each dan rank.

Perhaps they use an abbreviated TIG. The 'normal standard' really isn't a standard. It is in use by some organizations, but not all. It isn't a universal rule of law that must be abided by for all. Perhaps it was a combination of abbreviated TIG and skipped Dan ranks.

Perhaps it was but I disagree with generally shortened TIG. I understand the Kukkiwon has a process for abbreviated TIG, for Olympic/WC medal winners, etc and I'm OK with that, but to get to 8th Dan grandmaster level at 26 is crazy. I agree with others that the early ranks don't mean that much (compared to what the average non-martial artist westerner believes they mean) but surely the high dan ranks should require many decades of studying?

Perhaps it was self-promotion, but then he wouldn't have been the first to self-promote or shop for rank by organization-hopping. Their is martial historical precedence for that as well is there not?

But he's ITF and moved to TAGB (so the article says) rather than an independent.

I didn't see in the article at what age he started, perhaps he was one of those 4 year old BB's many don't have a problem with? In which case he has 24 years under his belt which is 1/3 longer than GM Ji Han Jae.

But GM Ji was promoted in a different time... That's the difference. What would be interesting is to know the youngest person GM Ji has promoted to 8th Dan... Has he repeated history by promoting other younger people to that high a rank, or does he only promote people at certain ages.

So...what's the issue? Seriously.

No issue, I was just giving an opinion and posting this at a time when others were saying they disagreed with child/junior black belts to see how others felt. I wasn't venting, just putting it out there fore discussion.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

No issue, I was just giving an opinion and posting this at a time when others were saying they disagreed with child/junior black belts to see how others felt. I wasn't venting, just putting it out there fore discussion.

Thank you for the reply, and I think you put out a good topic for discussion. It brings all kinds of things up to take a close look at and see what people think.

Because that was a different time. 50 years ago there were few/no 8/9th dan grandmasters, so at the time getting more people to that rank was generally acceptable.

Okay, why would it be more acceptable? Why would there need to be a rush to get 8th/9th Dan GM's that perhaps had much less time-in-the-arts than what they now require from others? Do you feel that 16 years is enough time to make 8th Dan and be called a GM? If the answer is yes, then I would submit that if it was okay for him then it should be okay for anyone provided they had the same or similar training, regardless of the era of training or how many 8th/9th Dans are running around.

I have no issue with skipping rank providing you have TIG and meet the minimum age requirements. In this the Kukkiwon implicitly agrees because there are minimum ages for each dan rank.

But he was ITF and/or TAGB. Do they adhere to KKW standards for TIG. If they don't, should they?

Perhaps it was but I disagree with generally shortened TIG. I understand the Kukkiwon has a process for abbreviated TIG, for Olympic/WC medal winners, etc and I'm OK with that, but to get to 8th Dan grandmaster level at 26 is crazy.

If I understand you correctly, there can be circumstances that legitimately allow for shortened TIG. Would there be any legitimate justifications that apply to this individual? Has anyone here met him? Seen him train? Know of any reason that would be a legitimate justification?

That's the difference. What would be interesting is to know the youngest person GM Ji has promoted to 8th Dan... Has he repeated history by promoting other younger people to that high a rank, or does he only promote people at certain ages.

I think a more interesting question would be, who promoted GM Ji to 8th Dan after 16 years of training. What was the justification, other than just needing to get some people up there as fast as possible. I don't necessarily see that as a legitimate justification.

Good discussion!

 

[FieldDiscipline]

Seeing as this has reappeared.

http://leehayestaekwondo.weebly.com/instructors.html

Found through the power of Google.

That has got to be a typo. I really cant see that in the TAGB. Dave Oliver is an 8th Dan himself and has been at this for a loooong time. GM C.K. Choi ratified that while he was over.

That's a typo.

 

[Tez3]

Seeing as this has reappeared.

http://leehayestaekwondo.weebly.com/instructors.html

Found through the power of Google.

Hallo! Was this the last time you posted? Missed you around!