what does your dojang teach?

[msmitht]

First you say that they are not the same style. Then you say that they are joined at the hip. You are wrong and I'm tired.

 

[msmitht]

Very interesting, is the same true for time in grade reduction if one were to win the world poomsae championship or a national poomsae competition?

The rule applies to any major wtf international event or countries national championship. Poomsae is not in the Olympics so the 100% time reduction is out but world championship would get a one time 80%reduction in time.

 

[MAist25]

First you say that they are not the same style. Then you say that they are joined at the hip. You are wrong and I'm tired.

Joined at the hip, but not the same. I don't believe I'm wrong at all. But enjoy your snooze.

 

[Dirty Dog]

It is a large aspect. It is the national sport of south Korea. It is played in all school levels through college and they have a professional league. If they win a national championship they get a reduction in time between Dan levels!
Where did/do they all get their poom/Dan? The kukkiwon.

Ummm.... so what? All you have to do is have Dan ranking in another system (say... the ITF) and the Kukkiwon will give you equivalent rank so that you can compete in WTF events. Doesn't matter if you know the KKW curriculum.
At least, that is what we were assured was policy by a couple of former MT members who were at least 7th Dan KKW. They were quite frank about it.

And of course, it still remains true that the KKW is not synonymous with TKD. And the subset of KKW TKD that deals only with the SPORT is not even close to being the entirety of TKD.
If you're saying that there is no grappling is WTF competition, I won't argue (although they grapple all the time, when they want the ref to call a break). But your statement was that there is no grappling in TKD. This is patently false.

 

[MAist25]

^^^ Thank you.

 

[skribs]

You HAVE admitted that there is some grappling in TKD self-defense, you just refuse to call it grappling because it's not ground fighting.

Now you're pointing to the olympic-style and saying that if it's not olympic style, KKW doesn't care. If that were the case, then only practical speed kicking would be the focus of TKD. If you're only using olympic rules as your benchmark, then you're going to ignore blocks, hand strikes, knee strikes, poomsae, etc.

Any self defense skills which involve grabs, throws, take-downs, or defense against those is part of grappling, even if it's not ground fighting. I think the important thing is to separate the definitions of ground fighting and grappling, much like you would separate apples and fruit. Is TKD as sophisticated as judo or hapkido in that regard? No. But it is still part of the art.

 

[msmitht]

Ummm.... so what? All you have to do is have Dan ranking in another system (say... the ITF) and the Kukkiwon will give you equivalent rank so that you can compete in WTF events. Doesn't matter if you know the KKW curriculum.
At least, that is what we were assured was policy by a couple of former MT members who were at least 7th Dan KKW. They were quite frank about it.

And of course, it still remains true that the KKW is not synonymous with TKD. And the subset of KKW TKD that deals only with the SPORT is not even close to being the entirety of TKD.
If you're saying that there is no grappling is WTF competition, I won't argue (although they grapple all the time, when they want the ref to call a break). But your statement was that there is no grappling in TKD. This is patently false.

Not in the taekwondo currently taught in Korea there isn't.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Not in the taekwondo currently taught in Korea there isn't.

North Korea isn't Korea? :rofl:

Wouldn't it just be easier to just say "yeah, I only meant one small part of TKD, not TKD as a whole?"

And of course, your statement here is incorrect, since there are certainly non-KKW dojangs in South Korea.

 

[msmitht]

Types of grappling

There are many different regional styles of grappling around the world that are practiced within a limited geographic area or country. Several grappling styles like Sport Judo, Shoot wrestling, Catch wrestling, Brazilian jiu-jitsu, Sport Sambo and several types of wrestling including Freestyle and Greco-Roman have gained global popularity. Judo, Freestyle Wrestling, and Greco-Roman Wrestling are Olympic Sports while Brazilian Jiu-jitsu and Sambo have their own World Championship Competitions. Other known grappling-oriented systems are shuai jiao, malla-yuddha and aikido.

In these arts, the object is either to take down and pin the opponent, or to catch the adversary in a specialized chokehold or joint lock which forces him or her to submit and admit defeat or be rendered helpless (unconscious or broken limbs). There are two forms of dress for grappling that dictate pace and style of action: with a jacket, such as a gi[3] or kurtka, and without. The jacket, or "gi", form most often utilizes grips on the cloth to control the opponent's body, while the "no-gi" form emphasizes body control of the torso and head using only the natural holds provided by the body. The use of a jacket is compulsory in judo competition, sambo competition, and most Brazilian jiu-jitsu competition, as well as a variety of folk wrestling styles around the world. Jackets are not used in many forms of wrestling, such as Olympic Freestyle and Greco-Roman wrestling.

Grappling techniques are also used in mixed martial arts along with striking techniques. Strikes can be used to set up grappling techniques and vice-versa.


Now Wikipedia does mention defensive grappling which involves self defense. But looking at the definition of grappling styles I don't see Taekwondo listed, nor does the description match the current, modern day Taekwondo. The clinch in kyroogi is a time when you are trying to gain an advantage (or get the ref to say kalyo) but there are no takedowns allowed or submissions/ pain compliance.
Let me rephrase:there is no ground grappling or offensive grappling in Taekwondo. If the school you are at teaches defensive grappling, it is not a part of modern day (competitive) Taekwondo.

And MAist, you don't know modern day Taekwondo. The honorable GM Richard Chun studied a long time ago and the techniques he learned were a mix of karate, judo, kung fu and daitio ryu ju jitsu. A good system by anyones standard, but not modern Taekwondo. I find it hard to believe that his senior instructor went to kukkiwon and at no time was there any sport related information passed on. Maybe he was there for a poomsae course. You do know what kukkiwon means when you translate it, right? It means"institute of national SPORT".

 

[msmitht]

I was referring to pure Taekwondo as is taught in Schools (k-college)in South Korea. I've been there. Have you?

 

[Dirty Dog]

I was referring to pure Taekwondo as is taught in Schools (k-college)in South Korea. I've been there. Have you?

:rofl:
That's not "pure", that's simply one piece of TKD. So, if we try to understand your thinking, which is "pure" baseball, the American League, or the National? They're the same game, but with some differences.
Same as KKW TKD differs from other styles of TKD.

Maybe you're just one of those people whose ego won't allow them to admit they made a mistake?
That's sad.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Any self defense skills which involve grabs, throws, take-downs, or defense against those is part of grappling, even if it's not ground fighting. I think the important thing is to separate the definitions of ground fighting and grappling, much like you would separate apples and fruit.

At this point I would like to point out (if it is not obvious to everyone here) that you can also have ground fighting without grappling.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I guess some of us are grappling with some issues.

 

[MAist25]

And MAist, you don't know modern day Taekwondo. The honorable GM Richard Chun studied a long time ago and the techniques he learned were a mix of karate, judo, kung fu and daitio ryu ju jitsu. A good system by anyones standard, but not modern Taekwondo. I find it hard to believe that his senior instructor went to kukkiwon and at no time was there any sport related information passed on. Maybe he was there for a poomsae course. You do know what kukkiwon means when you translate it, right? It means"institute of national SPORT".

GM Chun's guys are not the only people I've trained with. I've trained under a 6th Dan named Master Jae Y. Lim as well in what you would call a "pure" Kukki Taekwondo school. We practiced grappling at that school as well.... I've also trained with Master Aziz Nabih, a 5th Dan master, and 2 international competitors who fight for the Egyptian national team. And although you are correct that Chun learned a long time ago, he has continued to make trips to Korea to keep up to date on the way things are done. Just last year at a seminar he taught us more revisions to poomsae that he had learned from a recent tip to Korea. If he didn't know "modern" Taekwondo, he would still have us practicing the pyung ahn hyung like he used to teach.

And as a matter of fact, his senior instructor actually experienced no sport aspects of TKD while he was at the Kukkiwon, and no, he wasn't there for poomsae training. The Kukkiwon was only one of the places he trained at while there, and actually, in every place he trained, the sport of Taekwondo was never included in the training. He trained at the International Kumgang Taekwondo Center under Master Byeong Cheol An. They trained in meditation, refinement of basic techniques, kicking, poomsae, forearm conditioning, and hosinsul, which I'll add, contained grappling.

He then trained at the Kukkiwon under GM No. They trained in stepping basics, kicking techniques, footwork, and poomsae. Next, he trained at the World Taekwondo Instructor Academy with GM Kyu Hyun Lee. There they practiced basics, poomsae, and hosinsul. The master even demonstrated the original Koryo poomsae, which we still learn in our association, to GM Lee, who was extremely happy and even had one of his students videotape the performance. The vast majority of the training, however, was hosinsul training, which GM Lee had a blast with, and included many grappling techniques.

Not once did he train in "sport" Taekwondo...

 

[skribs]

I would not say that Taekwondo is a grappling art. That doesn't mean it doesn't have grappling.

Just like how Judo has some strikes. Strikes might not be allowed in competition, but they are in the forms and are in self defense (and are useful if you plan on doing MMA with your Judo skills). That doesn't make it a striking art, just like having a few grappling techniques doesn't make TKD a grappling art. Saying "he threw strikes, that's not Judo" would be a falsehood, unless you're talking about competition. There is a good correlation I think between no strikes in Judo competition and no grappling in WTF sparring, but that both arts include the techniques in some form or another.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

...
If you want to go by the wiki definition of grappling then there is "graplling " taught in every style of martial art. ...

I would say that is true, with possibly a few exceptions.

Of course, there is a huge difference in the extent, focus, and quality of grappling taught in different arts. If Bob has trained for ten years exclusively in TKD and Charlie has trained for ten years exclusively in BJJ, then I would expect Charlie to be vastly more skilled and knowledgeable about grappling than Bob. Likewise I would expect Bob to be much more skilled in striking. That doesn't mean Bob can't demonstrate a hip throw or that Charlie can't throw a punch.

It seems that you guys are just arguing about definitions. Personally, I use the more inclusive definition. I've experienced grappling in BJJ, Judo, Kali, Muay Thai, Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, Danzan Ryu, Bando, Boxing, Silat, TKD, and more. (Not saying I'm particularly expert in most of those arts.) In some of those arts the grappling wasn't very good. In others, the grappling was limited to a very specific purpose. Still, I'm not going to deny its existence just because it doesn't match the depth or focus of BJJ.

This is from someone who has no dog in the fight regarding TKD. I'm primarily a BJJ/Muay Thai guy and it's been 30 years since I took a TKD class.

 

[msmitht]

:rofl:
That's not "pure", that's simply one piece of TKD. So, if we try to understand your thinking, which is "pure" baseball, the American League, or the National? They're the same game, but with some differences.
Same as KKW TKD differs from other styles of TKD.

Maybe you're just one of those people whose ego won't allow them to admit they made a mistake?
That's sad.

Is my opinion. We have very different ideas of what grappling is. Maybe I should have said effective offensive/defensive grappling with the intent to engage your partner by clinching, taking them down, achieving a dominant position and either apply a submission or beating them til they give up or are unconsciois.That is how I define grappling. Does that work for you?

 

[skribs]

I would say that is true, with possibly a few exceptions.

I would agree, the exceptions being striking sports like boxing or kickboxing, which are completely dedicated to the sport.

Of course, there is a huge difference in the extent, focus, and quality of grappling taught in different arts. If Bob has trained for ten years exclusively in TKD and Charlie has trained for ten years exclusively in BJJ, then I would expect Charlie to be vastly more skilled and knowledgeable about grappling than Bob. Likewise I would expect Bob to be much more skilled in striking. That doesn't mean Bob can't demonstrate a hip throw or that Charlie can't throw a punch.

It seems that you guys are just arguing about definitions. Personally, I use the more inclusive definition. I've experienced grappling in BJJ, Judo, Kali, Muay Thai, Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu, Danzan Ryu, Bando, Boxing, Silat, TKD, and more. (Not saying I'm particularly expert in most of those arts.) In some of those arts the grappling wasn't very good. In others, the grappling was limited to a very specific purpose. Still, I'm not going to deny its existence just because it doesn't match the depth or focus of BJJ.

Very well said. I would agree that BJJ might have a more thorough understanding of grappling techniques and theory, but to say that TKD has 0 grappling because BJJ does it better is hogwash.

Is my opinion. We have very different ideas of what grappling is. Maybe I should have said effective offensive/defensive grappling with the intent to engage your partner by clinching, taking them down, achieving a dominant position and either apply a submission or beating them til they give up or are unconsciois.That is how I define grappling. Does that work for you?

That might be how you define grappling. However, some of the techniques I have been taught in my TKD class meet that definition. Sometimes we finish with a strike, sometimes a throw, sometimes a submission hold of some sort. With that said, I know my master spent some time in Japan and some of the stuff he teaches has a Judo influence.

I would also say you’re in the minority that the definition you provided is the criteria needed for grappling. I would say any techniques that seek to manipulate your opponent’s/attacker’s body instead of simply attacking would be considered grappling.

 

[MAist25]

Straight from the KKW website:

Kkeokgi (꺾&#44592 Snapping
Techniques of restraining by pressing or twisting the opponent’s joints
These are restraining skills to press or twist the opponent’s wrist, elbow, shoulder, ankle, or knee with the performer's hand. These skills are executed when the performer is seized by the assailant or one is grabbing the opponent at close range.


Neomgigi (넘기&#44592 Throwing down or Tripping up
Tripping up or throwing down techniques by pulling or pushing the opponent off balance


Japgi (잡&#44592 Grabbing
Auxiliary techniques of holding the opponent’s body, collar, etc. with the hands.
They are auxiliary skills to interfere with the opponent’s movement or seize him or her by grabbing a part of his or her body with the performer’s hands.


Ppaegi (빼&#44592 Pulling out
A technique of pulling oneself free when part of the defender's body is seized by the opponent
They are the skills executed by twisting or turning the joint and pulling it out when the defender’s wrist or ankle is grabbed by the assailant.

Sound like elements of grappling to me... You can check out the photo references on the website too.

 

[skribs]

MAist, do you have a link the to site you were looking at?