You people were right, I should've clarified.

[donald1]

When taken at face value "shut up and train," sounds exactly like that, that you're not supposed to say anything or ask any questions but just do as your told

i understand where your coming from. but you are thinking about it differently, i know atleast 1reason (im sure theres more but i kbow this one to be true) im not saying dont ask questions but if you dont understand something the instructor is teaching then pay more attention. in my class today we were practicing xing yi dao form andi kept leaving out one of the techniques so before i asked which i watched him at that spot and saw through example. what im getting to here is its okay to ask questions but theres certain situations where you shouldnt ask and theres also situations to just pay better attention to detail. ask questions when its okay but it would be wise to know when not to ask. and if thats not convincing enough i dont know what to say besides whoever makes the rulesmakes the decisions. some instructors allow the use of questions some dont. they both have their reasons. i like when students as questions as long as the questions are either relevant to what were doing or before/after class. you may not like the idea of not asking questions but people who teach that way can still teach effectivly so obviously they are doing something right and thats what matters

 

[Chris Parker]

When taken at face value "shut up and train," sounds exactly like that, that you're not supposed to say anything or ask any questions but just do as your told.

Then I suggest you start to look past what you think things mean, look beyond "face value", and begin to recognise when you're being offered advice.

OK, now that you've explained that I see what you mean.

I hope so.

 

[PhotonGuy]

So basically you found out there is no right answer and everyone is different. I personally would never ask when I can test and if someone asked me when can they test I'd automatically tell them they are not ready. But I'm not the end all be all and others may be ok with a student asking. I don't care what color belt I'm wearing and normally never think I'm ready

My sensei expects you to ask to test if you want to. You ask him for the form to sign up for the test and he might tell you that you're not ready but he would expect you to ask for the form and if you don't than he would assume that you're simply not interested in testing. You, along with most of the people on this board seem to say that a sensei would know best if a student is ready or not and I agree, that's why I think it would be a good idea to ask the sensei, because he knows best.

 

[ballen0351]

My sensei expects you to ask to test if you want to. You ask him for the form to sign up for the test and he might tell you that you're not ready but he would expect you to ask for the form and if you don't than he would assume that you're simply not interested in testing. You, along with most of the people on this board seem to say that a sensei would know best if a student is ready or not and I agree, that's why I think it would be a good idea to ask the sensei, because he knows best.

OK we got it you have told us this OVER AND OVER AND OVER.

 

[PhotonGuy]

OK we got it you have told us this OVER AND OVER AND OVER.

Well than, what would you do in such a situation? You said you wouldn't ask about testing. And also, as I said, why shouldn't a student ask their sensei about testing since the sensei knows best and all.

 

[ballen0351]

Well than, what would you do in such a situation? You said you wouldn't ask about testing. And also, as I said, why shouldn't a student ask their sensei about testing since the sensei knows best and all.

I feel bad for this poor horse


What would I do? Id just keep training. I dont care about the belt color or promotions as long as im still learning new stuff. You care great, ask away....... me I dont

 

[PhotonGuy]

I feel bad for this poor horse


What would I do? Id just keep training. I dont care about the belt color or promotions as long as im still learning new stuff. You care great, ask away....... me I dont

Well you made it clear you don't care about rank and so in such a situation asking wouldn't apply to you. However, what Im getting at is why some people would consider it disrespectful just to ask. Also, why if a student asks why that would mean they're not ready. The reason a student would be asking in the first place is to know if they're ready from the sensei who would know more about that than the student would. After all the sensei knows best and some senseis expect you to ask.

 

[Steve]

Well you made it clear you don't care about rank and so in such a situation asking wouldn't apply to you. However, what Im getting at is why some people would consider it disrespectful just to ask. Also, why if a student asks why that would mean they're not ready. The reason a student would be asking in the first place is to know if they're ready from the sensei who would know more about that than the student would. After all the sensei knows best and some senseis expect you to ask.

Theres really no answer, photonguy. At your school, it sounds like asking isn't just okay, but is expected. In other schools, it's the opposite.

I'd expect most people would ask at your school, because that is the expectation. knowing many schools are the opposite, one should be careful to learn the culture and expectations of a new school before presuming that it's the same as one's old one.

 

[donald1]

is to know if they're ready from the sensei who would know more about that than the student would. After all the sensei knows best and some senseis expect you to ask.

maybe its how they were taught (just my guess) if it worked for them im sure they can make it work. maybe its part of patience. or another thought maybe it involves priorities? maybe the instructor dosnt want students asking about testing and expects their main focus to be on improvement on ones area of practice. i disagree with that last thing you said. im sure the sensei would try do whats vest but it would be hard to kniw what is best. (im not a sensei so maybe im overstepping my boundry a bit but ) perhaps one may try figure out what is best might be then figure out the closest option to it.
best of luck

 

[tshadowchaser]

I'll explain my thought of not asking questions better:

When I'm teaching I want the student to practice what I am telling them to do. I do not want the rest of the class distracted by someone who is not instructing the class. I have a plan for the class each night and thing I want them to practice. If I as the class if they have questions on something that's ok I have asked. If after class they approach me and ask in a respectful manner I'll most times answer the question.
What I do not want is someone constantly interrupting and distracting the class by asking questions or any other distraction. The "What if' PEOPLE SOON GET THE IDEA OF NOT BEING JUST PLAIN STUPID ALL THE TIME AND LEARN THAT ALMOST ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE and that they are going to be the one demonstrated on and the demo is going tto get harder with every "what if"

 

[Tez3]

I'll explain my thought of not asking questions better:

When I'm teaching I want the student to practice what I am telling them to do. I do not want the rest of the class distracted by someone who is not instructing the class. I have a plan for the class each night and thing I want them to practice. If I as the class if they have questions on something that's ok I have asked. If after class they approach me and ask in a respectful manner I'll most times answer the question.
What I do not want is someone constantly interrupting and distracting the class by asking questions or any other distraction. The "What if' PEOPLE SOON GET THE IDEA OF NOT BEING JUST PLAIN STUPID ALL THE TIME AND LEARN THAT ALMOST ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE and that they are going to be the one demonstrated on and the demo is going tto get harder with every "what if"

That just about goes for every situation where there is a person teaching so shouldn't be a surprise but it always is to someone. It doesn't matter what you are teaching there is always someone who has to ask a question just before you explain what it is they want to know! There's the one too who as you are going round to check everyone knows what they are doing has to run across to you asking how to do something. They are just a little annoying the ones that really annoy me (both as an instructor and a student) is when you are partnered with them after seeing how the instructor has demo'd something he wants you to practice insists on 'teaching' you a so called better way which makes it hard for you to do what the instructor has shown. As an instructor it makes you wonder why you bother!

 

[PhotonGuy]

So, at some dojos they wouldn't want you to ask about testing because they would rather you focus on improving in your area of practice. Well, tests are usually based on what you're taught and what you do in practice, at least they are at my place, so if you want to do well on a test you would have to focus on what you're taught during practice. Some people have said that for a student to ask when they will test is disrespectful because they're questioning the sensei's judgement. Well, that would depend. If a student has a mindset along the lines of, "I should be testing, my sensei should get with the program and let me test," that obviously would be questioning the sensei's judgement and it would be disrespectful but to ask what you need to do or work on in able to test would be a different story. There is this guy at my dojo who wanted to test for his black belt. My sensei said he wasn't ready, that he needed to work more on his roundhouse kick and that he should test the next time. So he worked on his roundhouse and he signed up and passed the test the next time around and got a black belt. The first time, the sensei told the student that he wasn't ready and told him why he wasn't ready. That way the student knew what he needed to work on, he knew what he needed to fix. I don't see why it would be wrong for a student to ask a sensei what they need to do to get to the next belt. This would include the black belt but not be limited to that. For a student to say, "Sensei, I would like to get a black belt (or whatever belt happens to be the next one up), what do I need to do?" I don't see how that would be questioning the sensei's judgement. On the contrary, a student would be asking for their sensei's advice so if anything they would be trusting their sensei's judgement not questioning it. So if anybody thinks that would be disrespectful I would like to hear, or actually since this is a message board, read about why it would be. If you disagree with me than say why, Im not saying disagreement is bad or unwelcome on the contrary a person can learn by other people disagreeing with them and they might change their viewpoint when they hear other people's viewpoints. It would be boring if everybody always agreed. So, anybody who thinks its wrong to ask a sensei such stuff, to ask for a sensei's advice please, I would like to hear why. And obviously, asking such questions should be done at the proper time. You certainly wouldn't ask such questions in the middle of class or in the middle of a drill but before or after class, those would be appropriate times to ask.

After all, "You've got a mouth, you've got to use it."

 

[tshadowchaser]

So are you saying the instructor dose not know enough to teach the student what is needed for the next rank, and that the instructor is not going to instruct the student with the information without being asked?
I would think that any competent instructor would know what they student was learning and how well the student was learning. He would also know if he/she needed to give more information or have the student improve on any material needed for the next rank. Instructors should be aware of what knowledge he is passing on and if it is being received and done correctly by the students. He also knows what his standards are for reaching a certain rank.
Some instructors pass out programs or sheets of paper saying what is needed for each rank. When a student has all the material on the sheet of paper they know they have what is needed to test but they may not know if they can do the techniques good enough to pass the test so they give the paper to the instructor and if he says they can test they should pass. That same instructor may also say " you need to practice this more or this form needs to be learned better. Is this the same as asking what is needed no it is saying you think you have learned all the martial on the paper and await learning more. This is what you have suggested above but in a different manner.
In some schools that are "old " in their ways there are no test you test every time you step on the floor. In some of them it is up to a senior student to talk to the head instructor and ask if you can be tested.In both of these types of schools the student is there to learn not get belts until someone else decides the student is ready.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Once again there is no right or wrong it all depends on what type of school your in.
But then again some schools youth students and under black belt adults call the black belts by their first names in class. In a school like that I would not doubt that people tell the instructor they are ready to test, although I know a few of these school that one might get knocked on their butt if they did. So once again it depends on the school and no one way is correct these days across the spectrum of the arts.

 

[PhotonGuy]

So are you saying the instructor dose not know enough to teach the student what is needed for the next rank, and that the instructor is not going to instruct the student with the information without being asked?
I would think that any competent instructor would know what they student was learning and how well the student was learning. He would also know if he/she needed to give more information or have the student improve on any material needed for the next rank. Instructors should be aware of what knowledge he is passing on and if it is being received and done correctly by the students. He also knows what his standards are for reaching a certain rank.
Some instructors pass out programs or sheets of paper saying what is needed for each rank. When a student has all the material on the sheet of paper they know they have what is needed to test but they may not know if they can do the techniques good enough to pass the test so they give the paper to the instructor and if he says they can test they should pass. That same instructor may also say " you need to practice this more or this form needs to be learned better. Is this the same as asking what is needed no it is saying you think you have learned all the martial on the paper and await learning more. This is what you have suggested above but in a different manner.
In some schools that are "old " in their ways there are no test you test every time you step on the floor. In some of them it is up to a senior student to talk to the head instructor and ask if you can be tested.In both of these types of schools the student is there to learn not get belts until someone else decides the student is ready.

Some instructors won't tell you what you need to work on for the next belt without being asked. My instructor is an example of that. My instructor will give you pointers and corrections during class but he won't tell you what you need to work on for the next belt unless you ask him. I already talked about a student at my dojo who was told by the sensei that he had to work on his roundhouse more to be eligible to get a black belt. Why did the sensei tell him? Because the student asked. Apparently though, some people think its disrespectful to ask a sensei such stuff, Im trying to find out why they would say that.

 

[Chris Parker]

You're missing what would be considered disrespectful… asking about how things are done in the class is not what anyone has suggested could be considered as such… and this has all been answered many times throughout this, and previous threads.

 

[Tez3]

These days practicalities have to take priority over 'old fashioned' ways of doing things. When I trained Wado for example we had a syllabus and we would ask when the instructor thought we would be ready to grade because the gradings were held in the courses which were in towns and cities quite a distance from us so we'd have to book time off work, a hotel/bed and breakfast and arrange child care that sort of thing so telling us months ahead was practical. Most likely we would go on the course anyway but if we knew we were grading we'd make an extra effort to get there. those with work and families will know how difficult it can be sometimes to spend money not on household/family things and to spend time away from families, taking them with you often incurred more expense.
In TSD students ask when they are likely to grade because most of our students are likely to be on exercise or deployment so we have to fit in around that.
No one thinks it disrespectful to ask, instructors have to fit things in with their work and families too.

 

[Transk53]

It would be boring if everybody always agreed. So, anybody who thinks its wrong to ask a sensei such stuff, to ask for a sensei's advice please, I would like to hear why. And obviously, asking such questions should be done at the proper time. You certainly wouldn't ask such questions in the middle of class or in the middle of a drill but before or after class, those would be appropriate times to ask.

Sorry I am confused again. You seem to me to be constantly asking when to test for a Black belt? Surely you're instructor knows best. I say because when training I constantly ask questions during down time. Yeah as I say, confused as to what the point is.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Sorry I am confused again. You seem to me to be constantly asking when to test for a Black belt? Surely you're instructor knows best. I say because when training I constantly ask questions during down time. Yeah as I say, confused as to what the point is.

What are you confused about?

 

[Dirty Dog]

What are you confused about?

Why you ask the same question 10,000 different ways. Even though you've gotten the same answers every time.

Just a guess.


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.