You people were right, I should've clarified.

[Dirty Dog]

Every time I go to say something Dirty Dog has said it first and better than I could have...

Great Minds think alike.
So do warped ones.
Deciding which truism applies is left as an exercise for the reader...

 

[Zero]

You're not going to get the belt without getting the skill so there would have to be a challenge to getting the belt since its a challenge to get the skills. Although I agree that you should focus on the skills and the knowledge, but you might still want the desired by-product of a belt. In the same way that in school a student might want an A in a class, their primary focus shouldn't be on the grade but rather on learning the material and gaining the knowledge thats necessary to get the A but they will still want the A.

Nothing at all wrong with also wanting the by-product of the belt at all, agreed.

The school analogy unfortunately in the real world does not stack up so well. It is a perverted thing that, while getting the knowledge from the curriculum is important, it is absolutely crucial kids pick up those top marks depending on where they and their parents want them to go in life and that starts at primary school for getting into decent high school or getting a scholarship and then from high school to get into the appropriate university and then from uni into almost any job now. The marks are used all the way through as a screen and then those who get the interview get to show their real human self. Until recently I would say that only applied to professional jobs but marks are becoming more of a requirement even in trades apprenticeships now.

Without the right grades the very gates to you being able to continue your learning and participate at all may well be shut to you.

However, that is not necessarily the case with the martial arts, unless you are in a style that requires certain rank before you can compete at local, national, international level, and you are focused on competition to the highest levels within that style. You can continue to stay in your karate club and to pick up knowledge for ever even if you do not grade. It is even possible at some clubs, if you are good but for whatever reason have not been able to make the grading to continue to study the art to high dan levels and to take part in that training.

I'm not saying it's a great thing but in most Western and Eastern societies I have been in the school grades themselves really are of key importance.

I don't agree with that, I would rather pass in flying colors than to just pass borderline. I would rather get an 100 on a test than a 90 which is still an A but just a borderline A as opposed to an 100 which is an A+

So you're not saying you don't agree with my statement but rather that personally your approach is not that as which I set out. Seems like we agree on that then, great! : )

 

[PhotonGuy]

Great Minds think alike.
So do warped ones.
Deciding which truism applies is left as an exercise for the reader...

"Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch." Matthew 15:14

 

[Dirty Dog]

"Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch." Matthew 15:14

Well, I'll grant that you do seem to be an expert at blindness, in the metaphorical sense...


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Nothing at all wrong with also wanting the by-product of the belt at all, agreed.

The school analogy unfortunately in the real world does not stack up so well. It is a perverted thing that, while getting the knowledge from the curriculum is important, it is absolutely crucial kids pick up those top marks depending on where they and their parents want them to go in life and that starts at primary school for getting into decent high school or getting a scholarship and then from high school to get into the appropriate university and then from uni into almost any job now. The marks are used all the way through as a screen and then those who get the interview get to show their real human self. Until recently I would say that only applied to professional jobs but marks are becoming more of a requirement even in trades apprenticeships now.

Without the right grades the very gates to you being able to continue your learning and participate at all may well be shut to you.

However, that is not necessarily the case with the martial arts, unless you are in a style that requires certain rank before you can compete at local, national, international level, and you are focused on competition to the highest levels within that style. You can continue to stay in your karate club and to pick up knowledge for ever even if you do not grade. It is even possible at some clubs, if you are good but for whatever reason have not been able to make the grading to continue to study the art to high dan levels and to take part in that training.

I'm not saying it's a great thing but in most Western and Eastern societies I have been in the school grades themselves really are of key importance.



So you're not saying you don't agree with my statement but rather that personally your approach is not that as which I set out. Seems like we agree on that then, great! : )

So you're saying that grades often are crucial for a career and that belts aren't. Generally yes but that can depend. Somebody might want to go into a career in the martial arts. They might want to set up their own place and although, just like grades belts aren't a foolproof system in determining a person's knowledge and skill, I would want to at least make 1st dan before trying to teach and even at 1st dan I wouldn't consider myself ready to teach, I would still want to gain much more knowledge and experience before teaching but 1st dan would be a step towards that career.

Grades are what they look at in schools, colleges, and careers but I do think they sometimes rush it too much. Also, its possible to go into a good career without getting top grades. I've got a friend who never finished high school and now he's running a successful business in landscaping and remodeling. So depending on your career of choice grades aren't always necessary but they are necessary for a lot of good jobs but so are belts if you want to go into a career in the martial arts as I posted above. Even for other careers maybe somebody wants to get a certain belt even if it's not required for the career. I could give examples.

As its been said here, martial arts can't be rushed. I would say its the same thing with most stuff in this world. School shouldn't be rushed but unfortunately sometimes it is. And while you usually can't rush stuff without ruining it, I would still want to get stuff done in a timely manner. If I was baking a cake which took 2 hours, turning up the heat to get it done sooner would only burn the cake and so it wouldn't be a good idea but if it takes 2 hours I would want it to take 2 hours not 3. I want to get stuff done in a timely manner, whether it be cakes, belts, or most anything else.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Well, I'll grant that you do seem to be an expert at blindness, in the metaphorical sense...


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.

I was referring to you and Instructor.

 

[Zero]

So you're saying that grades often are crucial for a career and that belts aren't. Generally yes but that can depend. Somebody might want to go into a career in the martial arts. They might want to set up their own place and although, just like grades belts aren't a foolproof system in determining a person's knowledge and skill, I would want to at least make 1st dan before trying to teach and even at 1st dan I wouldn't consider myself ready to teach, I would still want to gain much more knowledge and experience before teaching but 1st dan would be a step towards that career. .

If one was going to have a career in the martial arts, ie in being an instructor and/or running their own school, then I really hope they would do this from the basis of a solid core knowledge of the arts they train in. This is not always reality or the case. You can get teachers of questionable rank with less than the greatest understanding of the style they teach. This is often propped up by "such and such a belt in this style and such and such a grade in that one..."

Grades are what they look at in schools, colleges, and careers but I do think they sometimes rush it too much. Also, its possible to go into a good career without getting top grades. I've got a friend who never finished high school and now he's running a successful business in landscaping and remodeling. So depending on your career of choice grades aren't always necessary but they are necessary for a lot of good jobs but so are belts if you want to go into a career in the martial arts as I posted above. Even for other careers maybe somebody wants to get a certain belt even if it's not required for the career. I could give examples..

You're talking about running your own business. Many of which do require certain grades or recognition from a body, such as most trades like electricians or businesses involved in the financial services. Sure, if you're talking about actual entrepreneurs, then that's another kettle of fish and that's where the real money lies (and real risk) if money is your thing. My un-qualified friends who flunked out of high school and went on to be web entrepreneurs or took over the reins of dad's business are lighting cigars with 100 dollar bills and washing their Ferrari's in champagne while I'll be lucky to retire before 70. Personally I would say the uni or tertiary route is often way over-sold!! Kids should try to get out there and grab a fortune and if fail then hit the books say mid- twenties or later or some such.

As its been said here, martial arts can't be rushed. I would say its the same thing with most stuff in this world. School shouldn't be rushed but unfortunately sometimes it is. And while you usually can't rush stuff without ruining it, I would still want to get stuff done in a timely manner. If I was baking a cake which took 2 hours, turning up the heat to get it done sooner would only burn the cake and so it wouldn't be a good idea but if it takes 2 hours I would want it to take 2 hours not 3. I want to get stuff done in a timely manner, whether it be cakes, belts, or most anything else.

Still with the cakes??

Personally, I would say rush through the schooling to the max to and at whatever level and get out and live and make some $$$ : )

 

[PhotonGuy]

Still with the cakes??

Why not? Its a good example.

 

[Zero]

Why not? Its a good example.

Nah, was just joking, I should have added a smiley, as you always bring up the cakes and seem to have an affinity with baking analogies. Cakes are all good!

 

[Transk53]

Cakes are all good!

Especially when they are white chocolate chip muffins or eccles cakes.

 

[Cirdan]

`cause martial arts are like having your cake and eating it too

 

[PhotonGuy]

Nah, was just joking, I should have added a smiley, as you always bring up the cakes and seem to have an affinity with baking analogies. Cakes are all good!

Actually it was somebody else who came up with the cake analogy and I thought it was good.

Anyway, you said you know people who didn't finish high school and who are living the American dream while you would be glad to retire to 70. As for me, I wouldn't want to retire at 70 or ever. I want a job that I enjoy doing and that I do because I enjoy doing it and if I can make good money thats another good thing about it but not the main reason for doing it. And if its a job I really enjoy I want it to be lifelong.

 

[Zero]

Actually it was somebody else who came up with the cake analogy and I thought it was good.

Anyway, you said you know people who didn't finish high school and who are living the American dream while you would be glad to retire to 70. As for me, I wouldn't want to retire at 70 or ever. I want a job that I enjoy doing and that I do because I enjoy doing it and if I can make good money thats another good thing about it but not the main reason for doing it. And if its a job I really enjoy I want it to be lifelong.

No, no my friend, I said "I would by lucky" to retire before 70 (not "glad" to retire at 70). This means I'm probably going to have to keep working at the coal face until that age. It is also standard to read into such a comment that I would prefer such age to be much earlier. I like my job and luckily find it fascinating and challenging but why work and play if you can play 100% of the time? That's my view on life. Again, most of the time I really enjoy my work but if I had a trust fund I would chuck it in and be in the dojo and out sailing and spending all of the time.

That said, my old man is 70 now and still doing a full week's work and doesn't need to but only does so because he enjoys it (and possibly to avoid being home 24/7 with the old lady!). He said this is the first year that he has started feeling tired by mid/end of the week and is now thinking of winding back or chucking it in. He's lucky to have a job that keeps him engaged with his noggin and his hands. Wouldn't it be great to enjoy your job so you can keep at it? So you are right that it would be special to be in that situation.

 

[Zero]

Actually it was somebody else who came up with the cake analogy and I thought it was good.

Anyway, you said you know people who didn't finish high school and who are living the American dream .

They're not in America so it's a different dream, possibly even a better one?!

 

[PhotonGuy]

No, no my friend, I said "I would by lucky" to retire before 70 (not "glad" to retire at 70). This means I'm probably going to have to keep working at the coal face until that age. It is also standard to read into such a comment that I would prefer such age to be much earlier. I like my job and luckily find it fascinating and challenging but why work and play if you can play 100% of the time? That's my view on life. Again, most of the time I really enjoy my work but if I had a trust fund I would chuck it in and be in the dojo and out sailing and spending all of the time.

That said, my old man is 70 now and still doing a full week's work and doesn't need to but only does so because he enjoys it (and possibly to avoid being home 24/7 with the old lady!). He said this is the first year that he has started feeling tired by mid/end of the week and is now thinking of winding back or chucking it in. He's lucky to have a job that keeps him engaged with his noggin and his hands. Wouldn't it be great to enjoy your job so you can keep at it? So you are right that it would be special to be in that situation.

Why work and play if you can play 100% at the time? Why not this, why not do something that's both 100% of the time? Another words, get paid for playing. I know people who've done that, they really love their job and that's the main reason they do it although the money is good too. So I think its best to find a job you can get paid doing that you really enjoy, or better yet, take something you really enjoy and find a way to get paid for it. I knew this guy who really enjoyed fishing and he somehow made a career out of it. Speaking of which, fishing often involves sailing so if you're into fishing and sailing you can combine the two.

So anyway, congrats to your dad for being 70 and still doing a job he really enjoys. A friend of mine from high school owns a huge landscaping business and has over 100 cars, trucks, and tractors. He could if he wanted to, be sailing and spending all the time but he's not, he doesn't even work at a desk most of the time rather he's out in the field most of the time doing the landscaping work along with all his workers and hiring out the desk work, why? Because he really enjoys it.

Anyway, I get what you're saying, sometimes you have to do what you can to make ends meet and it might not be your number one choice of work but nonetheless its necessary for the income you need. That's just life, in the perfect world we would all be doing work we enjoy, not because we need to pay the bills.

 

[PhotonGuy]

They're not in America so it's a different dream, possibly even a better one?!

So where are they?

 

[Zero]

So where are they?

Oh, off the top of the head, one is in England (web/IT), two are in the Philippines (pharmaceuticals) and one is in New Zealand (logistics). But now this thread really is literally and geographically going all over the show.

 

[Instructor]

I was referring to you and Instructor.

In jest?

 

[Steve]

Why work and play if you can play 100% at the time? Why not this, why not do something that's both 100% of the time? Another words, get paid for playing. I know people who've done that, they really love their job and that's the main reason they do it although the money is good too. So I think its best to find a job you can get paid doing that you really enjoy, or better yet, take something you really enjoy and find a way to get paid for it. I knew this guy who really enjoyed fishing and he somehow made a career out of it. Speaking of which, fishing often involves sailing so if you're into fishing and sailing you can combine the two.

Taking a passion and monetizing works really well for some people. But not everyone. When you monetize something, it becomes an obligation (ie, a job). Personally, the point where a hobby becomes a job is about the time it ceases to be fun.

don't get me wrong. I love my job. But it's a profession about which I'm passionate, not the other way around.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Taking a passion and monetizing works really well for some people. But not everyone. When you monetize something, it becomes an obligation (ie, a job). Personally, the point where a hobby becomes a job is about the time it ceases to be fun.

don't get me wrong. I love my job. But it's a profession about which I'm passionate, not the other way around.

I agree with you. I enjoy my work too, but it's my job, and I have to do it even when it's not fun.

One of the reasons I enjoy teaching at our dojang is because it is not commercial.
Similarly, I have no desire to teach SCUBA. I dive because I like to see what I can see. An instructors dive is spent helping students work on skills and making sure they don't do something that will get them killed.