You might disagree but I think this is great news

[Tez3]

I've watched a great deal of MMA fights and have seen great kicking and punching in what you would call a traditional style, I've seen MMA fights that never went to ground. It may be that most of our fighters come from a traditional background, we have several karatekas fighting as well as TKD people.

 

[ATC]

now, here is an idea, make it a 3 pronged event.

fighting-hands count, and if you fall over, you dont score
kata-traditional kata only
breaking-either creative or power

combined score wins the medal

that THAT I would watch

That is what most events are like, minus the hands of course.

WTF rules state, if you fall down while throwing a technique that does not land then you get a half point deduction. Also if you fall to many times while doing a technique that lands you can still are to be penalized the half point each time you fall.

The problem is that the center ref has all power, so if he/she does not penalize then there is nothing that can be done.

Just like the rule states that you cannot just stand or not engage in fighting for more than 10 seconds. If you do not fight and 10 seconds has passed then the person seen as the non aggressor (moving backwards) is given a half point deduction. Refs again do not always call this. They are getting better at it lately though.

Also you cannot flee or run from your opponent. This also is a half point deduction. Taking 3 steps back with no intent on countering or fighting is considered fleeing. Again the Refs rarely call this.

There are rules in place to keep the matches all action but until the refs start calling them as they are stated there is not much that can be done. The rules are black and white but the refs see them as gray and feel that they have room for interpretations. No! This is not the case.

My son lost at his last Jr. Olympics match because the kid he was fighting chose to run the entire match after getting one point. Not once did he get a fleeing penalty. The kid would flee then hold. Ref would break then he would flee then hold again. Only at the very end of the match when time was at 1 second did the ref give his first fleeing half point deductions, and only after we complained by shouting into the ring "He's Fleeing, He's Fleeing". Well a half point only counts when you have two of them. If you score and point and then get a half point deduction you still have 1 point until you get two half points, so my son lost 1 - 0.

But most tournaments are just as you listed, again minus the hands.

 

[dancingalone]

Wow! Boxing is in every country just as you put it. Everyone in every country knows what boxing is becasue at whatever level, most have done it, even if not in an actual ring.

Oh and Walking and Running are both sports, that are organized activities, with rules, coaches, judges and competitors. Ever heard of track and field.

I am done with this debate.

I might duck too if I had overreached myself. My initial point is that a sport isn't much of a sport if one had to be a participant to appreciate the sport. Lots of people like boxing and yet they DO NOT BOX. I don't care if they got into a fist fight when they were 8, they still did not box. Same thing with walking and running. We all walk or run, but few of us participate in track and field. Meanwhile, it seems that the people who do like sport TKD all do it themselves or have family members that do.

THAT is the point.

 

[dancingalone]

If the sport bothers you so much then don't watch it, don't do it, and stop complaining about it. Something so irrelevant sure seems to take up so much of your time. It obviously is not irrelevant or it would not be talked about so much, nor be in the Olympics, nor would it even be considered a sport. Some body thinks it's relevant enough, as over 160 countries do it, and they just extended in the Olympics to 2016. So your silly argument that you are trying to make really holds no water. You obviously think it is relevant enough to warrant your time and efforts to convince someone that it is not. So I really can't take any of you points as serious when you make the statement that you did and then put some much time and effort into talking about something that you think is irrelevant. Most people just ignore the irrelevant.

Pick a better word next time because irrelevant does not fit.

You missed my entire point. I support sport TKD, just not in its current incarnation.

And calm down. I seem to be angering you and that's not my intent.

 

[ATC]

I've watched a great deal of MMA fights and have seen great kicking and punching in what you would call a traditional style, I've seen MMA fights that never went to ground. It may be that most of our fighters come from a traditional background, we have several karatekas fighting as well as TKD people.

Have to wait until I get home to see the clip.

Yes there are exception but they are just that the exceptions not the rule. Most kicks are thrown to get you leg back to the ground fast as to not have it grabbed or let swept out from under you. Most kick don't have the extention nor the hip turned for the same fear. Most punches are not thrown as a boxer would throw a punch for fear of the leg shoot or the leg kick. MMA is a different animal where form style techniques are not going to be thrown and can't be thrown. I understand that. But that is when the beauty of the art is not seen.

Yes form time to time you will see a nice pretty kick or punch but again they are rare.

 

[dancingalone]

My God can we ever get away from the sportside sucking.

I am disappointed that this thread seems to have escalated where feelings are hurt. But surely we are all adults and we can differ without taking shots at one another? And for that matter, the thread title does seem to invite yet another discussion about sport TKD. We can't very well complain about the result if we make a comment that we know others will disagree with.

 

[terryl965]

I am disappointed that this thread seems to have escalated where feelings are hurt. But surely we are all adults and we can differ without taking shots at one another? And for that matter, the thread title does seem to invite yet another discussion about sport TKD. We can't very well complain about the result if we make a comment that we know others will disagree with.

Lets see been on this forum forever it seems, over the last three months it has become another site I will not mention. Dis-agreeing is fine belittling the art or sport is a diferent matter. I feel this is just another attempt at bashing Olympic Style TKD, sorry but it is my opinion. All I am saying if certain people hate the sport and see the thread as a sport thread than jsut make a commit and go about you everyday life.

I too hate the sport at times and think it is bad alot of the time but I also can see the good it is doing and can accept it.

 

[dancingalone]

I think that MOST sport TKDist started off in "Traditiional" TKD before moving on and focusing on the sport aspects. Therefore I think that most would have an easier time transitioning back to "Traditional" than a "Traditional" only student would have transitioning to Sport.

I disagree. It depends on what you consider "traditional". If you mean the typical McDojang fare out there, I'm not going to argue. I believe there's are different timing and sensory skills that come into play when you practice a full hoshinsul curriculum, and those take time and practice to develop just as it takes work to develop in sport TKD.

It does help to be athletic in any martial activity, and people who do Olympic sparring are surely athletic.

And yes I put "Traditional" in quotes because really, how much "Tradition" is there in a roughly 54 year old activity? Opps, is that a whole new can of worms I just opened? Well since this is my thread I guess I have that right.

Depends on what you practice. There are those who practice skills that are shared with the hapkido people now as well as those delving back into the older forms for the Okinawan bunkai.

As for TKD being a relatively young art, I don't think anyone will dispute that. At its face, TKD is a very punchy kicky art. It's in the digging that things start being interesting.

 

[ATC]

You missed my entire point. I support sport TKD, just not in its current incarnation.

And calm down. I seem to be angering you and that's not my intent.

No I did not miss your point, your point was not clearly stated and even with you clarification is still a bit conflicting to me. How can you support something that dose not exist. What you see is what sport TKD is, to say you support it but not in its current state is like me saying I don't like the Iphone the way it is but I support what they are doing and I will like it later. How can I say this? I have no clue as to what the Iphone will be like. It may become something even worse to me. If I support it then I think they are on the right track and are doing thing correctly, or I don’t

All I can say is that I don't like the Iphone the way it is. Then I can only tell you what I want it to be like and how I would like it. But I cannot support it and hate it at the the same time.

I support what sport TKD is. Are there some things that I would like to see changed? Yes. But I am not going to condemn what it is today because I would like to see some changes? Am I going to call what they have today irrelevant? No. Because today's sport is very relevant to tomorrows sport.

I am not angry just annoyed at some of your statements that don't make a point or sense. I think you may have a point that you are trying to get across but you are not communicating them well. Or it could be that I just don't get them. Either way I don't think I need to take my arguments any further. I appreciate your passion and it was fun debating this subject.

OH BY THE WAY I LOVE THE IPHONE, just used that as an example.

 

[dancingalone]

Dis-agreeing is fine belittling the art or sport is a diferent matter. I feel this is just another attempt at bashing Olympic Style TKD, sorry but it is my opinion. All I am saying if certain people hate the sport and see the thread as a sport thread than jsut make a commit and go about you everyday life.

I can only speak for myself. To me bashing would be something like "Olympic TKD sucks. Only lamers do it." To say that you find sport TKD devoid of martial meaning as I did is a comment and not bashing, particularly if you take the time to explain yourself more or to develop the idea.

I appreciate that the people on this board who do sport TKD are weary of the criticism. With that in mind, I would just suggest a moratorium then on posting sport TKD threads as they invite comment from all people on this board and some are bound to have a negative opinion of it.

 

[dancingalone]

No I did not miss your point, your point was not clearly stated and even with you clarification is still a bit conflicting to me. How can you support something that dose not exist.

Well, I can support world peace and universal literacy, can't I? Neither exist.

There are things I would change about sport TKD if I were appointed the Czar in charge. Below are a few obvious ones.

1) Allow punches, including head shots, and score appropriately for them. Give kicks a premium on points since this is TKD after all, but let's keep things real.

2) Allow sweeps and takedowns. This would get rid of the bouncing up and down and the occasional one legged hopping you see in matches.

3) Score for combination techniques. Ideally, the highest combo potential would come from 3+ technique chain, such as a kick to the head, a punch to the gut, leading into a double leg sweep from the front.

4) Referees should face review and punishment procedures similar to what is done in NCAA football or NFL football. This will hopefully ensure that judging is both competent and honest.

Just a few off the top of my head.

 

[ATC]

Well, I can support world peace and universal literacy, can't I? Neither exist.

Wow!!! You can't be serious with this as a response to what I stated. See this is what I am talking about that annoys me. You response is totaly out of context to what was being said. It is like something my kids would respond with. I don't know if you are being serious or just joking. I hope it is the latter. I really hope so.

 

[dancingalone]

No, I'm serious. It's hard to convey humor or sarcasm in just the written word so I tend to avoid in unless in person. If you wanted a different type of response, perhaps a smiley face would be in order to indicate the appropriate level of response.

There's another poster on MT, not you, who has a habit of "saying" some fairly outrageous things that could even be construed as an insult. When called on it, he plays it as off as "just kidding".

What does proper netiquette say?

 

[Gorilla]

I'm not comparing sports at all, what I suggest is that the TKD competitor picks which stylist they want to go against and they fight TKD Olympic rules, so you are a bit wrong there aren't you. I know MMA fighters who can 'fight' to those rules and funnily enough I know a MT fighter that can too so there you go.

Right one last time for those of you who are wrapped up in your defensive bubble.
I am not attacking TKD I'm hacked off with the Olympic stuff. The officials robbed our competitors blind , the whole thing stank like week old fish and the dancing around makes non martial artists laugh. This in turn casts a shadow over other martial arts because these non martial artists think we all do the riverdance thing, well we must, they've seen it on the tele.
Bully for all those that live in Vegas, send us a postcard sometime but don't lecture us.
I would happily leave the whole thing alone but for the simple fact that the Olympic stuff and what went on at Beijing made all the media spotlight us. We got phone calls asking us to comment on what went on at the Olympics and could we explain the 'funny fighting' style from local papers. No amount of us explaining we don't do TKD gets through "but you have a martial arts club".
le advertised our club as we do periodically at about the same time as the Olympics and we got comments from soldiers that I really couldn't post here as they were derogatory, they'd watched the TKD thinking it was fighting and well, it wasn't.
OLympic TKD annoys me because it affects my club, I don't actually care what you do, enjoy any style you like but having the general population think thats what we do isn't on.

ATC, never in any fighting art i have done have 14 year olds been matched against 24 year old, it's just not on to match boys against men however 'equal' in rank they may be.

That's my beef against Olympic TKD, not TKD as such or any other thing anyone wants to do, when anything affects my club I'm not a happy bunny.

I would 'suck' at your sport too, thats because I'm used to full contact (no headguards or body protectors) punching, kicking, sweeps and take downs, with shin blocking and use of elbows and knees. Would your guys 'suck' at my sport too do you think?
As for your challenge, I'll up the ante, any Olympic style TKDer in the UK (or a rich American lol) contact me and I will set up a match for them, same sex, same weight on our next show before Christmas, it's a show for Help For Heroes so it will do some good too. I will match an Olympic type TKDer with either a karate kumite fighter, a MT fighter or an MMAer standing, TKD competitors choice. We have videoing so all can see it.

I did not take your post as fighting Olympic style TKD rules because it does not state that. I won't be in Engalnd until 2012 (hopefully). On occasion we get Karate folks at TKD tournaments(2006 JKI) always fun to watch.

 

[ATC]

No, I'm serious. It's hard to convey humor or sarcasm in just the written word so I tend to avoid in unless in person. If you wanted a different type of response, perhaps a smiley face would be in order to indicate the appropriate level of response.

There's another poster on MT, not you, who has a habit of "saying" some fairly outrageous things that could even be construed as an insult. When called on it, he plays it as off as "just kidding".

What does proper netiquette say?

Well then enough said.

 

[ATC]

I've watched a great deal of MMA fights and have seen great kicking and punching in what you would call a traditional style, I've seen MMA fights that never went to ground. It may be that most of our fighters come from a traditional background, we have several karatekas fighting as well as TKD people.

Just watche the video as I am at home now. That was great. The highlights for the clip were choosen perfectly. It really showed a mixture of MA styles. Nice MT knees, and you can clearly see that his kicking is more advanced than most MMA fighters. You can see he also has some wrestling skills as well. With the kicking you can see the cleaness of the kicking techiques. I would guess or assume that this person has some TMA training more than just the basic that a lot of MMA fighter have. Reason being it that a back spinning kick (spining heel or wheel kick as some call it) was done with pretty good technique. Many that I see attempt this kick with only kickboxing or MMA training only throw this kick with really poor technique thus removing the power, snap and speed of the kick. Looks like a true MMA fighter. I say that because the term MMA means Mixed Martial Arts. I see to many that really don't have a any real experience with TMA training other than basics.

Thanks for the Video.

Is this guy out of your studio?

 

[dancingalone]

Well then enough said.

Indeed. Language is a funny thing. It works when you say what you mean.

 

[NPTKD]

Indeed. Language is a funny thing. It works when you say what you mean.

you know there is a lot to be said about a person who has a great vocabulary! I feel you do a great job of hidding your message in your posts.

 

[Marginal]

Not sure of what you are stating. I just simply agreed that old K-1 matches are sometimes shown on the ESPN2 and ESPNC channles. What does "running kickboxing down" mean?

You tend to try your best to make anything not TKD look like it has no influence, or at the very least that its influence is waning compared to TKD. You try to make one thing look worse to make another look better.

 

[NPTKD]

Hey, LOL!