Yet more discussion on Hapkido origins

[glad2bhere]

Dear Stuart:

I think its a reference to the popular Hollywood game of a few years back involving the members of the later Rat Pack. Apparently the game was to demonstrate a connect among one member and another within 6 steps or relationships. Just one of those clever little activities the Beautiful People use to structure their time, yes?

BTW: Its foundation is the belief that anyone on the planet can be tied to anyone else by 6 degrees of Separation with the most salient example being a jungle native and the Queen of England. All part of the "Global Village" or "Our Shrinking World" concept. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Hollywood1340]

Bruce

You have a point of which camp you may be in.

CH to me is another animal, not in the trad. HKD world. What lineage would a CH HKD student have. JP, Gracies, Wing Chun?

My lineage is Me, Master Todd Taylor, GMP, GM Seo, GM Choi. I've trained with a Gracie and practiced WC. And we've never claimed to do trad. HKD. I find it amazing how many don't read up. Oh well can't win em all!
Have a happykido day!

 

[American HKD]

My lineage is Me, Master Todd Taylor, GMP, GM Seo, GM Choi. I've trained with a Gracie and practiced WC. And we've never claimed to do trad. HKD. I find it amazing how many don't read up. Oh well can't win em all!
Have a happykido day!

Dear Hollywood,

I like your phase "Have a happykido day!" very cool.

Nothing personal but I read up on GM P. that's my problem.

Nothing seems that impressive by way of the MA expertise.

1. The tapes I've seen of him don't impress me as a highly skilled HKD player.

2. A very quick rise up the ranks to 9th dan. I'd love to see each of his dan ranks and know where and when he was promoted to 2nd,3,4,5,6, dan etc, more importantly by who and at what intervals of time where?

3. Many of us regular folks have more time and skill in HKD then GM P.

As a so called Traditional HKD guy, I never saw the need to strip HKD down to what is the so called "usefull material", cause it all has it's time and place. Most HKD players use any or all parts of the system as they choose, everyone has thier own favorite tech. that work for best for them.

You don't need CH to tell you what's good or what's for combat, any good HKD Instr. should help you out with that stuff.

Also the issue of cross training, I cross trainned in a couple of systems as my personal peferance, I also didn't need CH to cross train me with plug on modules so to speak.

In my final analysis CH is just a diluted version of the real thing with extra plug in cross trainning options that anyone can do themselves with seminars just as GM P.

What many do lack is great sales and marketing plan, my hats off to GM P for working that all out Brilliant!

artyon:

 

[Hollywood1340]

Okay so I stole the Qoute from Dark Kenpo Lord and his "Have a happy kenpo day" but, hey it works

I think the problem stems from although you've "read up" on GMP, you've missed the point of what his system is and why it exists. Many don't. And that's OK. We just keep training.

 

[American HKD]

Okay so I stole the Qoute from Dark Kenpo Lord and his "Have a happy kenpo day" but, hey it works

I think the problem stems from although you've "read up" on GMP, you've missed the point of what his system is and why it exists. Many don't. And that's OK. We just keep training.

Please explain I'll keep an open mind.

 

[Hollywood1340]

Please explain I'll keep an open mind.

I stole it from his sig line? LOL
Sorry. But you're mind is already closed, you're previous response indicated as such. And besides, look at what you can find with an open mind and the answer will be given to you.

 

[American HKD]

I stole it from his sig line? LOL
Sorry. But you're mind is already closed, you're previous response indicated as such. And besides, look at what you can find with an open mind and the answer will be given to you.

Sorry you feel that that way, but I think your mind's closed now!

 

[Hollywood1340]

Sorry you feel that that way, but I think your mind's closed now!

Is it? I really hate to debate, so lets discuss CHKD was designed for a demographic set. It is what it is, nothing less, nothing more. It's not an art, nor has it ever claimed to be. My best advice is look online for interviews with GMP about the whys and the whats.

Don't get me wrong, there is a lot I don't agree with in not only the curriculum, but in management and so on and so forth. But training in it, and with others, including those who have had trad. HKD experiance has told me what I need to know.

 

[American HKD]

Is it? I really hate to debate, so lets discuss CHKD was designed for a demographic set. It is what it is, nothing less, nothing more. It's not an art, nor has it ever claimed to be. My best advice is look online for interviews with GMP about the whys and the whats.

Don't get me wrong, there is a lot I don't agree with in not only the curriculum, but in management and so on and so forth. But training in it, and with others, including those who have had trad. HKD experiance has told me what I need to know.

I agree lets discuss. But I have alot of foundational questions as to why the need for CH in the first place? What gap was it filling in MA?

I've read alot of magazine articles and CH web site etc. I basically come away with looking at CH as a cross training system not unlike the JKD's types. They use the same mix of arts to make up thier styles HKD, BJJ, Wing Chun, Kali. Maybe not muay thai?


From you expirience please lay out all the pro/cons of CH?

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Stuart:

Frankly, I don't know whose mind is open or closed. Machts nix, to me. What I can say is that there is a standard of deportment or execution characterisitc of most arts which people with a level of experience in the KMA begin to ascribe to one art or another. This is a bit more than the typical "TKD people use their feet" or "KF do a lot of soft blocking".

Reviewing WHF material the other day I was stuck (yet once again) how (overall) the WHF material has a singularly "TKD-esque" flavor to it. Not quite as much as say the IHF of Bong Soo Han but a bit more than the Sin Mu material of Ji. And this is pretty consistent across the board. By comparison I note that the later Choi traditions such as Lim Hyun Su and Dojunim Kim are more after the fashion of Aikido with a kind of coordination with the attacker which comes close to but not quite the same as Aikido.

The reason I mention all of this is that when I view the ICHF material I note that the deportment or execution appears quite jumbled. Perhaps this is the result of blending bits from a variety of sources. The execution of Judo material does not blend well with the Aikido-like throws when one must also include concussive material such as punch and kicking. I note that GM Myungs WHF material can allow for more punching and kick because his joint-manipulation, chokes, locks pins, etc etc are more like Judo in their confrontational execution. On the other hand the material of Lim and Kim emphasize much less hard striking and blocking and more sense of blending with the attacker. Were I practitioner of ICHF material I could see a problem in that I might be sending mixed messages to my "muscle memory" regarding what my overall regard should be for the attacker in a confrontation. By extension, since Hapkido material effects us on all four planes of Being, I can imagine a person likewise having mixed thoughts and mixed feelings in a confrontation and I see NO benefit to that. Thoughts? Comments?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

Dear Stuart:

Frankly, I don't know whose mind is open or closed. Machts nix, to me. What I can say is that there is a standard of deportment or execution characterisitc of most arts which people with a level of experience in the KMA begin to ascribe to one art or another. This is a bit more than the typical "TKD people use their feet" or "KF do a lot of soft blocking".

Reviewing WHF material the other day I was stuck (yet once again) how (overall) the WHF material has a singularly "TKD-esque" flavor to it. Not quite as much as say the IHF of Bong Soo Han but a bit more than the Sin Mu material of Ji. And this is pretty consistent across the board. By comparison I note that the later Choi traditions such as Lim Hyun Su and Dojunim Kim are more after the fashion of Aikido with a kind of coordination with the attacker which comes close to but not quite the same as Aikido.

The reason I mention all of this is that when I view the ICHF material I note that the deportment or execution appears quite jumbled. Perhaps this is the result of blending bits from a variety of sources. The execution of Judo material does not blend well with the Aikido-like throws when one must also include concussive material such as punch and kicking. I note that GM Myungs WHF material can allow for more punching and kick because his joint-manipulation, chokes, locks pins, etc etc are more like Judo in their confrontational execution. On the other hand the material of Lim and Kim emphasize much less hard striking and blocking and more sense of blending with the attacker. Were I practitioner of ICHF material I could see a problem in that I might be sending mixed messages to my "muscle memory" regarding what my overall regard should be for the attacker in a confrontation. By extension, since Hapkido material effects us on all four planes of Being, I can imagine a person likewise having mixed thoughts and mixed feelings in a confrontation and I see NO benefit to that. Thoughts? Comments?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Dear Bruce

It's sounds like you know more about CH then myself.

I'm trying to figure out what CH is trying to do, I can't tell from the articles and thier web site as I mentioned, it just seems like a marketing tool for some JKD type theory with HKD as the buzz word.

As you pointed out CH tech are most probably jumbled because of the lack of one common philosophical thread running though all the material.

5 or 6 arts can't all co-exsist as one unified method, however the JKD guys have done a good job making things fit. I would have to say Lee/Inosanto is light years ahead of JP who's a bad imatation in a sense. One the other hand the JKD camp has been at it alot longer.

As far as GM Lim goes I'm planning on going to thier seminar this summer held in NJ for a weekend. I would like to compare our tradition to thiers, I think it will be a really great expirience.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Stuart:

"....As far as GM Lim goes I'm planning on going to thier seminar this summer held in NJ for a weekend. I would like to compare our tradition to thiers, I think it will be a really great expirience....."

If it was me, thats what "I'd" do. For myself, I went to Lim's seminar out here in Chicago. I used the same thinking in going to attend one of Ji's seminars' out in Colorado. People need to go and try for themselves as I view taking on an art or approaching a teacher as a pretty personal experience.
Now, in my book some people I don't really need to go visit, so I don't see myself skipping down to Florida any time soon, if you catch my meaning.

As far as Pelligrini goes I am familiar with his approach, having dutifully done my research, and yes, I have been to one of his seminars. I also have an axe to grind about how he dealt with GM Myung and the WHF but thats more of "my" issue than anything else and isn't really worth going into here. As it stands I approach Hapkido as a Mu-Do and as a constellation of material bound together by the Three Pillars. I don't see whip-stitching a bunch of techniques together and calling it Hapkido any more than you could disparate pieces of sports equiptment and sports rules and call it "Baseball". FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Hollywood1340]

I really hate to sound like a troll, with a comment like "Well you just don't know" or "It's obvious you hate me" LOL or some other stupid comment. So I won't. But again, IMO all the answers are given to you. But I guess you'll see it as you will. I'll answer questions to the best of my knowledge, but I would consider it a losing battle. I've felt and belived, and there is no more changing my mind then there is changing yours. I would love to get into it, but nothing would change. *shrugs* I do however enjoy the enligting converstations we have here on the HKD boards. I personaly don't care that much, but makes for good reading.

Stuart,
There are no pro's and con's. If I go into that it's "I'm better/worse". I can tell you the differences and why they exist, and why WE do things the way WE do. I don't agree with all of the "differences" but I guess it's in how you look at it. I've been around and seen THKD, have several friends who do and frankly, someday I will, but not now. This suites me wonderfuly, and I believe there is far more depth then it might appear, as long as you have a good instructor who can show it to you. I'm glad there are people such as yourself preserving the art of THKD, because if we lose sight of where we came from what good is being where we are now?
Have a happykido day! (By request)

 

[American HKD]

I really hate to sound like a troll, with a comment like "Well you just don't know" or "It's obvious you hate me" LOL or some other stupid comment. So I won't. But again, IMO all the answers are given to you. But I guess you'll see it as you will. I'll answer questions to the best of my knowledge, but I would consider it a losing battle. I've felt and belived, and there is no more changing my mind then there is changing yours. I would love to get into it, but nothing would change. *shrugs* I do however enjoy the enligting converstations we have here on the HKD boards. I personaly don't care that much, but makes for good reading.

Stuart,
There are no pro's and con's. If I go into that it's "I'm better/worse". I can tell you the differences and why they exist, and why WE do things the way WE do. I don't agree with all of the "differences" but I guess it's in how you look at it. I've been around and seen THKD, have several friends who do and frankly, someday I will, but not now. This suites me wonderfuly, and I believe there is far more depth then it might appear, as long as you have a good instructor who can show it to you. I'm glad there are people such as yourself preserving the art of THKD, because if we lose sight of where we came from what good is being where we are now?
Have a happykido day! (By request)

Greetings,

I agree there is alot of depth in each of the arts that make up CH, no question about that. The questions is how do all those arts fit together in the package CH promotes.

THKD lacks very little as a complete Art. The problem may be addressed better with the teaching of proper application and fighting tatics of all the material taught.

The longer I train in HKD the more I realize it's all with-in ( of course I don't mean HKD is the perfect system ) but I do mean it's more inclusive than one might realize.

Example
Trapping is a tactic IMO a THKD practioner need only use the tactic the mechanics are already in place to a large extent, not move for move as in Wing Chun, but with-in the HKD framework it need only be applied.

Same with grappling to some extent, same with knife defense, weapons, etc. I hope I'm being clear about these important principles I'm speaking of.

As a long term HKD practioner I can't help but to feel that someone like JP never matured in the THKD to realize what I'm getting at or that he was just on his quest to do what he wanted to do and never bothered to Master THKD and see what it could really yeild.

BTW none of that was meant as an attack, just an educated analysis by someone with over 25 in THKD.

 

[Hollywood1340]

No, of course not And I think this is the case in many systems, that have "New and Improved" off shoots. But I understand why it was done and who it was done for. Now I don't technicaly fall under the category of who it was done for, but it still works Eh, lets keep it going, this is good. I don't have many HKD people I network with

 

[zac_duncan]

But I understand why it was done and who it was done for. Now I don't technicaly fall under the category of who it was done for, but it still works

Just out of curiousity, being that this seems such a hot-topic, who do you think the system was created for? Just in your opinion. I seem to recall reading that it was created for people who couldn't commit the time to learn a "traditional" MA. Is this accurate, or am I mis-reading/remembering?

Thanks.

 

[American HKD]

No, of course not And I think this is the case in many systems, that have "New and Improved" off shoots. But I understand why it was done and who it was done for. Now I don't technicaly fall under the category of who it was done for, but it still works Eh, lets keep it going, this is good. I don't have many HKD people I network with

Greetings,

You said you understand why it was done and who it was done for, GREAT!

That's what I would like you to explain to me, Please!

 

[American HKD]

Dear Stuart:

"....As far as GM Lim goes I'm planning on going to thier seminar this summer held in NJ for a weekend. I would like to compare our tradition to thiers, I think it will be a really great expirience....."

If it was me, thats what "I'd" do. For myself, I went to Lim's seminar out here in Chicago. I used the same thinking in going to attend one of Ji's seminars' out in Colorado. People need to go and try for themselves as I view taking on an art or approaching a teacher as a pretty personal experience.
Now, in my book some people I don't really need to go visit, so I don't see myself skipping down to Florida any time soon, if you catch my meaning.

As far as Pelligrini goes I am familiar with his approach, having dutifully done my research, and yes, I have been to one of his seminars. I also have an axe to grind about how he dealt with GM Myung and the WHF but thats more of "my" issue than anything else and isn't really worth going into here. As it stands I approach Hapkido as a Mu-Do and as a constellation of material bound together by the Three Pillars. I don't see whip-stitching a bunch of techniques together and calling it Hapkido any more than you could disparate pieces of sports equiptment and sports rules and call it "Baseball". FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

What was your expirience at Lim's seminar???

 

[glad2bhere]

"....I seem to recall reading that it was created for people who couldn't commit the time to learn a "traditional" MA. Is this accurate, or am I mis-reading/remembering?....."

No, that was my understanding as well. Can't make to much out of that for myself. I mean what about the people who can't find time for ICHF? Does somebody come along and shorten the curriculum for them? Then again, maybe it might start a trend. 4.5 Inning Baseball Games and Football events that end at Half-Time. How about 18 holes of Golf, but just irons and no putting!?! OK. Now I'm gettin' punchy....

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[American HKD]

"....I seem to recall reading that it was created for people who couldn't commit the time to learn a "traditional" MA. Is this accurate, or am I mis-reading/remembering?....."

No, that was my understanding as well. Can't make to much out of that for myself. I mean what about the people who can't find time for ICHF? Does somebody come along and shorten the curriculum for them? Then again, maybe it might start a trend. 4.5 Inning Baseball Games and Football events that end at Half-Time. How about 18 holes of Golf, but just irons and no putting!?! OK. Now I'm gettin' punchy....

Best Wishes,

Bruce

Greetings

That sounds to dumb to be true, on the other hand it makes sense cause JP never had time to really learn HKD. Just Kidding!

Are the other courses in CH like WC, BJJ, HKD, Kali also the abridged version?