Yet more discussion on Hapkido origins

[Mike-IHF]

Bruce,

It is spelled Chang, but is pronounced Jang. What information are you looking for? Maybe I could direct you in the right direction. If your talking about information on his lineage. I don't know of any way of getting that information to you. You would have to contact GM Chang, or GM Ji and ask them. But NO we do not have any affiliation with Fabian's group, or the WOMAF. GM Chang is not affiliated with anyone for that matter. He started his own IHF in the 70's and has been there since. Let me know what your looking for. Thanks.


Stuart,

The reason I say Aikijutsu is for two reasons.

1: I am a firm believer in that what Choi taught Ji, was pure Yawara, or jutsu but did not, or Ji did not learn that much of Aiki aspects. The reason I say that we are probably closer to Aikijutsu, Aikijujutsu is the technical execution of technique. I can honestly say that I have not seen any Aikido group yet that uses what we refer to as more of the (military) technique. Aikido in essence is studied to execute technique without causing severe damage. What GM Chang teaches is definetely not in that way. I know this may not sound right, Please it is hard to explain by words. So please don't take what I have said to far out of context. We have had people from different groups come to the school. And while we were exchanging technique, just simple things as hand placement, would show them the difference in technique, if you know what I'm talking about.

p.s. If you click on the hapkiyoosool link by my signature.
scroll down the main page, and click on Scott Jame's school
in Utah. Go to the picture gallery. There are some old pictures of GM Chang and the
HQ. You can take a look at them there pretty cool. A little hard to see
even when you make them bigger, but still interesting.

 

[Master Todd Miller]

I believe that this is made worse by the fact that you know you are representing things in this fashion, understand your result and choose to continue the charade.

Read the May issue of Taekwondo Times! GM Lim has never lied or misrepresented what he does or teaches. His art of Chung Suk Guhapdo is a Korean art with influences from Japan, nothing more, nothing less.

I have spent a good deal of time with GM lim and have never found him to be the type to hype things up or be dishonest about anything, not his style.

The terms authentic, orthodox, genuine exct. are ways to describe what Jungki Mudo are. GM Lim trained with Doju Nim Choi for a long time and was one of a few that were promoted to 9th Dan by the Founder so the term orthodox is refering to what DJN Choi taught GM Lim.

We all know that there are many different versions of Hapkido, none are wrong per say just not the whole art DJN Choi taught, plain & simple.

 

[Master Todd Miller]

I did want to touch base on a comment that was made about weather or not DJN Choi taught the three principles of Hapkido.

There is a picture with the caligraphy "Wha, Won Yu" on the wall in GM Lim's dojang that was given to GM Lim by DJN Choi when he opened the Jungki Kwan in 1974. :asian:

Draw your own conclusion.

 

[American HKD]

Bruce,

It is spelled Chang, but is pronounced Jang. What information are you looking for? Maybe I could direct you in the right direction. If your talking about information on his lineage. I don't know of any way of getting that information to you. You would have to contact GM Chang, or GM Ji and ask them. But NO we do not have any affiliation with Fabian's group, or the WOMAF. GM Chang is not affiliated with anyone for that matter. He started his own IHF in the 70's and has been there since. Let me know what your looking for. Thanks.


Stuart,

The reason I say Aikijutsu is for two reasons.

1: I am a firm believer in that what Choi taught Ji, was pure Yawara, or jutsu but did not, or Ji did not learn that much of Aiki aspects. The reason I say that we are probably closer to Aikijutsu, Aikijujutsu is the technical execution of technique. I can honestly say that I have not seen any Aikido group yet that uses what we refer to as more of the (military) technique. Aikido in essence is studied to execute technique without causing severe damage. What GM Chang teaches is definetely not in that way. I know this may not sound right, Please it is hard to explain by words. So please don't take what I have said to far out of context. We have had people from different groups come to the school. And while we were exchanging technique, just simple things as hand placement, would show them the difference in technique, if you know what I'm talking about.

p.s. If you click on the hapkiyoosool link by my signature.
scroll down the main page, and click on Scott Jame's school
in Utah. Go to the picture gallery. There are some old pictures of GM Chang and the
HQ. You can take a look at them there pretty cool. A little hard to see
even when you make them bigger, but still interesting.

Dear Mike

I see where your comming from.

 

[Mike-IHF]

Todd Miller,


No disrespect, but the three principles you speek of were in existence way before 1974. Infact those 3 principles were used by the Kidohae in the 60's, and probably before then aswell.

 

[American HKD]

Greetings

Dear Todd

Where do think a guy like Mstr. Rim fits in, he only trained with Choi and is a 6th or 7th Dan directly from Choi.

Do you have any knowledge of Rim techniques being the same as GM Lim ?

 

[Mike-IHF]

Stuart,


Do you talk with GM Ji on a regular basis? If so if you would not mind asking him about GM Chang Young-Shil it would be great. I myself was wondering exactly what year he trained under Ji. Plus it might help Bruce out with his info. Thanks.

 

[glad2bhere]

".....Read the May issue of Taekwondo Times! GM Lim has never lied or misrepresented what he does or teaches. His art of Chung Suk Guhapdo is a Korean art with influences from Japan, nothing more, nothing less.

I have spent a good deal of time with GM lim and have never found him to be the type to hype things up or be dishonest about anything, not his style......"

Pardon me, Todd, but you just did it again! I wrote,
"I believe that this is made worse by the fact that you know you are representing things in this fashion, understand your result and choose to continue the charade." I didn't say anything about GM Lim misrepresenting. I didn't say anything about GM Lim "lying". These are your words that you are using to "spin" what I am saying even before you respond.

Furthermore, I wrote
"The claim that GM Lim, for instance studied "Guhapdo" for "40 years" is misleading. No mention is made of him studying Eishin Ryu in Japan and bringing that material back to Korea and creating his own aspect of sword which is then represented as "Korean". These kinds of carefully groomed statements tend to represent a personality in an inauthentic manner and do a disservice to people who might be seeking a role model after whom to pattern their own efforts."

I am addressing your representation of things. You know what is accurate and you are choosing not to disclose the information accurately.

Now, unless you can demonstate or substantiate the existence of "Guhapdo" as a Korean art rather than a construction by GM Lim in which he has combined Eishin Ryu and Kendoesque aspects of Kumdo I suggest to you help the readership here avoid confusion. Apparently GM Lim is very accomplished in Japanese swordsmanship and that is commendable. Nor do I see a problem teaching Japanese traditions utilizing Korean terms. All I am saying is that I think there needs to be some greater candor, thats all. The art of batto-jutsu is Japanese in organization, application and intent. It is not Korean. And if you like, we can have American members of the Eishin Ryu community observe your hyung to determine to what extent they are Japanese. Would this be more fair?

For my part, there is already much too much obfuscation regarding the Hapkido arts, with not a few Japanese entities deriding Korean traditions as nothing more than poorly executed Japanese arts. I don't think we need to add to this. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Master Todd Miller]

"The claim that GM Lim, for instance studied "Guhapdo" for "40 years" is misleading.

The Taekwondo Times article is not from me. I did the interview with GM Lim.

Where do you get that he studied Guhapdo for 40 years? He has been studying Mudo for over 40 years but not Guhapdo!

I have not tried to misrepresent anything to anyone. What GM Lim does and teaches stands on its own and does not need hype!

 

[Master Todd Miller]

Dear Todd

Where do think a guy like Mstr. Rim fits in, he only trained with Choi and is a 6th or 7th Dan directly from Choi.

Do you have any knowledge of Rim techniques being the same as GM Lim ?

I do not know Master Rim and have never seen his technique. I have herd that Joe Shayas tapes are different from what the Jungki Kwan does though.

 

[Master Todd Miller]

Todd Miller,


No disrespect, but the three principles you speek of were in existence way before 1974. Infact those 3 principles were used by the Kidohae in the 60's, and probably before then aswell.

Thank you for making my point. DJN Choi always taught the three principles. I just mentioned that why would he give GM Lim a caligraphy of Wha Won Yu if they did not have a major significance in Hapkido?

The caligraphy I am talking about was displayed in DJN Choi's dojang before he gave it to GM Lim.

 

[Jumper53]

Interesting thread guys.

I think it is a shame that this thread is hidden behind an opening question from a beginner. It should be in a thread labeled something like "Has HKD advanced since the Founder?" to better describe the contents. The discussion has been great but it would be good to draw some opinions from others who have had exposure to the 1st Generation HKD Masters.

I also appreciate when the conversation gets a little heated, you are able to pull it back to a rational discussion. Good communication!

None of us can truly say what happened 50 years ago, who is telling the truth, who was influenced by who. Unfortunately most of the people we need to ask are dead, and did not write autobiographies. Well not Biographies that contain 100% truth anyway, since most of them seemed to be arguing about their lineage and principals of their art just like we are today.

Through discussion in this international forum, maybe we can come a little closer to the truth. As much as the past matters anyway. We should also look to the present and future to not repeat some of the mistakes (mostly ego clashes) of the past Masters. HKD is a great art, no matter which variance of it you teach.

Think about this, in 20 years some of you will be the Head Masters of HKD. And in 50 years someone will be arguing about whether their teacher has a direct lineage to you and how much you were influenced by the Brazilian Ground Fighting arts or Pilipino Knife Fighting.

 

[glad2bhere]

Dear Jumper:

"....None of us can truly say what happened 50 years ago, who is telling the truth, who was influenced by who. Unfortunately most of the people we need to ask are dead, and did not write autobiographies. Well not Biographies that contain 100% truth anyway, since most of them seemed to be arguing about their lineage and principals of their art just like we are today. ..."

And this is where we have a chance to do something different that those folks in the previous generation screwed-up on.

As the torch gets passed to us we can talk about what we have in common, how things are the same, maybe investigate various aspects of the Hapkido arts such as the "ai-ki" ("hapki") versus the "ki-ai ("yu sool") principles. In another way, on another thread there was much talk about ground techniques and the thought seemed to be that we needed to bring BJJ into Hapkido. I pointed out that Hapkido already has ground techniques and we need to learn that material first and maybe investigate BJJ with the Hapkido ground material as a basis. Altogether different take. The same goes for the sword material. people are ready to run off to Japan and learn Japanese traditions and then bring it back and teach it as a Korean tradition when there is plenty of Korean material to learn before importing anything.

Now the people who have gone before us have given us a network--- a matrix, if you will--- upon which to expand our awareness. We need to learn the material that has gone before us and then make our contributions and pass it to the next generation who will make theirs. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[Jumper53]

My instructor does not verbalise the advanced principals of HKD very much. He just does techniques over and over waiting for us to see the principals, when we finally understand we get a nod with a grunt of approval, then he moves on.

I am not sure if it is just his teaching style or the complexities of translating from Korean to English, but he seems to dislike the times he has to use words to teach the black belts.

Reading this thread and others about the principals of HKD and AKD has helped me by putting some words to the lessons I have learned. Since I am a baby in this thread (only 3rd degree, yeesh this is a high ranking thread) I was wondering how some of you learned about the concepts of Hapki, Yul Sul, (aiki, kiai, Jutsu) etc. etc.

Did your Masters talk to you about these principals from the beginning or did he wait till you were high belt? Or was the teaching more by feel instead of words leaving you researching to find your own discriptions and names for the principals like I am now?

And I really do not care which of you has the shortest, most uncorrupted lineage to DJN Choi, so I would not mind reading an answer from each of you.
:asian:

 

[American HKD]

My instructor does not verbalise the advanced principals of HKD very much. He just does techniques over and over waiting for us to see the principals, when we finally understand we get a nod with a grunt of approval, then he moves on.

I am not sure if it is just his teaching style or the complexities of translating from Korean to English, but he seems to dislike the times he has to use words to teach the black belts.

Reading this thread and others about the principals of HKD and AKD has helped me by putting some words to the lessons I have learned. Since I am a baby in this thread (only 3rd degree, yeesh this is a high ranking thread) I was wondering how some of you learned about the concepts of Hapki, Yul Sul, (aiki, kiai, Jutsu) etc. etc.

Did your Masters talk to you about these principals from the beginning or did he wait till you were high belt? Or was the teaching more by feel instead of words leaving you researching to find your own discriptions and names for the principals like I am now?

And I really do not care which of you has the shortest, most uncorrupted lineage to DJN Choi, so I would not mind reading an answer from each of you.
:asian:

Welcome aboard!

Two things you mentioned.

1. We all have been communicating with each other here for quite a while, yes it can get hot from time to time but I think we all learned to overlook each others implied insults (most of the time!) and keep moving.

2. Anyway my 1st teacher sounds like yours, he taught by example not language which was Ok for someone who is a good follower and has an eye for detail.

At some point I needed more and had to find it on my own, from other sourses, Masters who could cross the lanuage barrier etc.

My advice is look everywhere, read, ask, don't be afraid to cross referance from other Arts, and talk to others you'll find the many answers along the way.

 

[glad2bhere]

I have a bit of an advantage since my teacher has been pretty pro-active in publishing material. However, if I took his published material out of the equation I would have to say that he introduced the Principles the same way that you both have described. In time, and over a range of techniques we would be encouraged to note certain common characterisitcs that all the material shared. This wasn't lectured as much as a kind of "after-thought". Every so often there might be a comment like "....and this is the same as what we saw in...." or "....and here is that principle again, but more in THIS light...". For my part we modern practitioners have a kind of luxury of being able to delve deeply into the art to understand these finer bits. Practitioners of old would have just bounced around in training and may or may not have ever had a chance to identify these principles at work. GM Myung encourages his students to dig into the art "behind" the activity, and the culture behind the traditions. I have always gotten the impression that he considered this an actual duty of the Hapkido practitioner. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

 

[iron_ox]

p.s. If you click on the hapkiyoosool link by my signature.
scroll down the main page, and click on Scott Jame's school
in Utah. Go to the picture gallery. There are some old pictures of GM Chang and the
HQ. You can take a look at them there pretty cool. A little hard to see
even when you make them bigger, but still interesting.

Hello all,

Yes, it is interesting to look at the old pictures. In the background, on the wall, one can see a single photograph, that of the Founder of Aikido - so Stuart, I think your supposition about Aikido here was correct.

 

[Mike-IHF]

Mr.Soger,

Just because GM Chang as a picture of Ueyshiba doesen't mean anything. He has pictures of alot of different pictures at the HQ. One's that are not seen in that gallery. Like GM Ji, Bong Soo-Han, Myung Jae-Nam which is there in that gallery. So it means absollutely nothing. In the school that I share with a friend from WHF, he has pictures of Takeda, Takeda's father etc. But obviously we have no affiliation with the DRAJJ in Japan. so what's your point?

 

[iron_ox]

Merchant,

You brought up the issue of looking at the pictures - not a single picture on the wall of Dojunim Choi (except the one more modern picture of the dojang now in Korea) - just Aikido's Founder - speaks volumes to the fact that your base is Aikido. These are the photos you directed the world to look at - of training in Korea - were you trying to be specific and say "look only at the particular pictures that do not demonstrate that the base of what we teach is Aikido?"

Ummm, but photos in Korea have much more significance than they do here. You may share space with someone of another style - but since it has been well established that your orgainzation is rooted in Aikido, it only stands to reason that such photos would be prominent at those dojang in Korea.

I see a pattern in your posts. You claim everyone misinterprets what you say. Maybe you ought to think out what you type a little before hand so as to be clearer in your own mind. Better yet, type the stuff in Word, then use a spell check, might help too.

I will not ask you again to spell my name correctly.

 

[Mike-IHF]

EXCUSE ME!

Mr. SOGOR,

oops, did I spell it correctly this time? What do you mean You will not ask me to spell your name correctly? sounds to me like someonehas an attitude problem.

There are two pictures of Choi Young-Sul, one of the portrait. And the other one being the news paper article on Choi's passing. Or did your eyes skip past that one?