grappling_mandala
Green Belt
There are forms of "deer" boxing in other systems.7starmantis said:
http://www.dragonslist.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=4848
I've never seen any of them.
Dave
http://www.dragonslist.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=4848
I've never seen any of them.
Dave
grappling_mandala
Green Belt
Bod said:
Bod said:
I will attempt to address the idea of what teaching ‘CMA’ has come to mean in regards to ‘style’ and ‘lineage’.
I went to hawaii myself to judge (for myself) the claims by those greater then I (like Gene Labell) that Michael Vendrell has something unique to offer all martial art practitioners. Afterall we all seek 'unique' experiences with known 'masters' of various systems whever we get the chance, if not, you miss out on judging for yourself what others simple gossip about. What I found at the 'welcome mat' is a man who appears to have been traditionally trained from a young age in a system of taoist healing and martial art.
The reason I went is because one of my first martial art teachers (Rhys) was an ex-student of Mike's. While my main focus for my time in the arts has been grappling, the perspectives that were continually offered me by Rhys helped my grappling game grow in the alive environment (active sparring) that I love to train in.
Rhys was always teaching me about concepts, principles and ideas that built up technique. (rather than technique leading me to the concepts) What I found is that once I understood a concept I was free to spontaneously create my own ‘form’ out of the need of the moment.
My traditional jiu jitsu training was based on memorizing forms/moves, and then trying to get those moves to work in a non-confrontational environment. My not so traditional grappling training emphasizes alive application of technique vs. memorizing forms that may or may not work. As a result technique is understood in the context of the situation and is applied easily under stress.
Being a part of both cultures has been beneficial to me in so far that I have come to see there are various ways of teaching any art.
One way of teaching art is form based, a textbook of memorized patterns between positions, the goal being to lead you to the edge of the art into spontaneous creativity that transcends the ‘formula’ of the 'form'.
Another way of teaching is the ‘formless’ way, similiar to what Bruce Lee was trying to transmit via Jeet Kune Do, or Ueshiba via Aikido. Read anything of what these two men had to say about movement and you will see some common threads. Both seek aliveness in combat, the perfect organic answer (we are organic) to the myriad of possible variations in human movement. Both use nature in their greatest metaphors.
What I found Sifu Vendrell has to say about form seems unique compared to what is labeled as 'Traditional Chinese Martial Art' (TCMA) He says basically that to become a slave to form at the expense of understanding the meaning behind movement is to limit yourself. There are no forms in Yee Chuan Tao.
This formlessness I have personal interest in. Being as I love to grapple I've found similar thought on the mat, especially when it comes to the “aliveness” guys like Matt Thorton offer in their clubs. This “Aliveness” (or formlessness) is the basis of many 'new schools of martial thought' that are actively involved in providing an environment for the practitioner to train reflexes to respond to what is in the NOW. vs. what the memorized form is. Yes, you've heard it before, all the brand named 'formless' forms, the form vs. formless argument of traditional vs. mma schools of thought.... Bruce Lee said it, modern mixed martial art fighters practice it to the limits of what the sport allows.
I think the common misunderstanding for many is that “formless” means meaninglessness. Good posture, balance, and technical understanding are still a part of ‘formless’ arts… formless simple means no 'memorized' forms outside of what is in the now. (ie the context of physical interaction with people or elements)
If in the context of this forum, TCMA encompasses the memorization of 'form' passed down thru a lineage, based on my experience I don't believe Mike Vendrell would want to be associated with that. Mike teaches that the form is there only to transcend. To find your own personal 'art' that is effective because it's yours. Thus he teaches animal ‘forms’ because he knows them, but there is an emphasis in his classes on the reoccurring patterns inside of forms that utilize available body mechanics in an effective way.
It's a bit of a paradox this form and formless debate.
Yet the paradox is embraced by TCMA's who practice standing forms for long periods. Standing Meditation is practiced by all three internal 'treasures', Tai Chi, BuGua and Xing Yi, and not isolated to them alone.
In the sliver of artists practicing Pile Standing, Stake Standing, Universal Post, etc, we find a group interested in understanding the deeper kinesthetic connections that the form attempts to reveal to the practitioner. This seems to me an attempt to strip away the unneeded and align the body to a natural state. A transcendence of form.
Personally, I find it odd that 'stillness' would make a difference in any art based on movement, yet this is what occurs. How many of us have heard all the stories about the old master who stands still in the park and is light as a feather when you push hands with him.
In researching other known lineages of Yi Quan (the other yi quan) I find lots of reference to standing forms of meditation as well. This supports my experience that there are different styles of teaching and transmitting arts, even inside of what is called 'traditional' channels.
ItÂ’s very easy to place emphasis on certain aspects of information based on the medium in which it is transmitted. There are many mediums to transmit information by, we can see this in our own evolution of communication technology. Language, Symbol, Printed Word, Photography, Telegraph, Telephone, Television, the Internet. All mediums that amplify certain parts of the spectrum of information available to us. The oral transmission of martial art would fall somewhere near the top of the list, predating previous information technology. Only in the recent past have we placed an emphasis on forms of mediated information that actually DILUTE natural human relationships. I ask myself why, and I have to say because people feel SAFER reading a book or watching television or reading the internet. ItÂ’s harder to take an honest breath and FEEL what someone else has to teach.
That’s why I went to Hawaii. Because every person who I’ve ever felt like I learned something from had a ‘feel’ to them. Well, sometimes I DON’T feel them, then it’s even better! But anyways… I FELT what is was they had learned, the accumulation of life experience…. Not just what they said, or what names where before them, but the whole person.
I won’t discount the ‘convenience’ of lineage charts, but I’ve met plenty of TCMA’s who have lineage and forms, but don’t actually have a core understanding of the nature of physical conflict resolution.
Which leads us back to the ‘formless’ nature expressed as the goal of so many ‘TCMA’ and embodied by modern founders like Bruce Lee and Ueshiba.
Far as I can tell, Vendrell was trained ‘traditionally’ in a way that allowed him a base to know other systems. Thus the ‘formlessness’ of the Taoist mystics takes shape as it manifests in any ‘style’. Tai chi practitioners would know this as ‘wu chi’ what existed before ‘tai chi’. Vendrell simply says, “It’s what Leong taught me.”
But the real reason I keep going back is what he ‘feels’ like. And that you just have to experience yourself. Words can not describe the wordless and when they do, they are simply enigmatic reflections of the moon on water.
In conclusion… “Form” as it relates to formlessness means that good martial art isn't based on 'style' it's based on understanding yourself. A style is a result of movement as it has occured inside of social and personal historical context.
My honest opinion is that Mike Vendrell teaches a 'living' form of martial art, he doesnÂ’t seek fame, and from my experience seems to have gone out of his way to stay out of any limelight that would draw attention to him. He's one of the most gifted teachers I have had the honor of learning from.
Kindest Regards to all and good training to you,
Dave Copeland
Portland, Oregon
PS - Mike is also a very gifted healer. I would say go and visit him and just be honest about your love for the art and ask questions and see what happens. Genuine artists have genuine questions. Any teacher can give any answer, but in the end your own progress is a result of you being a good student AND finding good teachers.
R
RHD
Guest
grappling_mandala said:
I have no question about Gene Labell or who he gives a black belt to.
What I question is anyone who claims to be the undefeated survivor of "underground" no holds barred matches in their teen years. I question anyone who claims to be the only successor to a Chinese martial art that 1) no one has ever heard of before 2) an art that has no documented existence before now 3) claimes to have be taught to a level of mastery as a child etc...etc...etc...
It sounds like you are a friend of Mr. Vendrell who's coming to his defense online. Very noble of you. I'm sure that Mr. Vendrell also has very little to do with anyone else in the Chinese Martial arts community. Why would that be I wonder...If he does, it would be very nice to hear from them. I won;t hold my breath though, because I truly believe that if it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck, and looks like a duck....its probably a duck.
Mike
R
RHD
Guest
BTW...
As far as my research goes, Yi Quan is a rather recent development in CMA, an offshoot of Hsing Yi. Yee Chuan Tao is Yi Quan? I don't think so.
Mike
As far as my research goes, Yi Quan is a rather recent development in CMA, an offshoot of Hsing Yi. Yee Chuan Tao is Yi Quan? I don't think so.
Mike
S
Sifu Mike
Guest
Peace! The system is Yee Chuan Tao (One Fist Way) not Yi Chuan that means Intellectual Fist. The reason why YCT is not well known is that I am the last surviving teacher of the system due to a little thing called the Chinese Communist Party. If you know anything about the history of China you know that the Party killed and exiled thousands of artist for not conforming to the Party's ideas. My Sifu's son was one of the unlucky ones and was killed. That is why I was taught to take his place. It is a very long story of how a 80 year old Chinese martial art master got hooked up with a Irish/Mexican Amercan I am sorry that more people don't know of my art. If I am a "BS" artist I must be a very good one! I have worked around some of the best martial artists in the world and they seem to have no problem with me. If you say like who? Eric Lee, Phil Tan, Kam Yuen Dougles Wong, Ark Y. Wong, Jeff Imada, Danny Inasonto, Ed Parker, Chuck Norris, Gene Labell, Bob Wall, James Lew, Al Liong, Mo Chow just to name a few. I have never clamed to be a master of 23 arts. If you look at my web page I never refer to myself as master. I love the the Chinese martial arts, they have kept me alive and have made me a better person. I feel very blessed to have learned what I have learned, it is real and just because it is not one of the the more well known arts does not mean that it does not have strong roots. For me, I like being different, not like everyone else. Peace to all who doubt, for they are seekers of the truth.
R
RHD
Guest
Sifu Mike said:
Cool, how about those no holds barred underground fights you engaged in what must have been your teen years? Could you tell us more about them? Like names, places, dates, etc...
The whole "commies killed my lineage" story is very convenient. Are you saying that there are absolutely NO other practitioners of Yee Chuan Tao? I've asked around with some fairly knowledgeable people...None of them have ever heard of this system.
Names of famous people do not mean much. No doubt you've had some exposure to good martial arts...your website infers much. Anyway, you must be a supremely talented martial artist to have mastered it in your childhood.
Mike
Mike
grappling_mandala
Green Belt
RHD - All I can really tell you is that you should go and train with Sifu Vendrell and feel the difference. I would be honored if I was called a friend of his. I would be honored to be called a student. Defense? I offer you facts, an honest window into my life in the arts.
"Anyway, you must be a supremely talented martial artist to have mastered it in your childhood."
... Children have a grasp of language at a very young age due to neurological conditions that promote FAST learning. Adults put in the same situation as children could not be expected to learn as fast.
... if you were to combine the learning ability of a child with a competent master who had something real to teach, the result would be a teenager with ability that would far superseed an adult who has put in the same amount of training time later in life.
... a good example is any of the Machado or Gracie brothers who have been saturated from childhood with mat work. It's simply another language.
All I can say at this point is just be honest and seek truth. If you love the arts the right teachers will be in your path, it's not a question of having a certificate on the wall, it's a matter of truth. Romantic? Yes. I prefer to live my life that way, it keeps me healthy.
Good training to you,
Dave Copeland
Portland, Oregon
"Anyway, you must be a supremely talented martial artist to have mastered it in your childhood."
... Children have a grasp of language at a very young age due to neurological conditions that promote FAST learning. Adults put in the same situation as children could not be expected to learn as fast.
... if you were to combine the learning ability of a child with a competent master who had something real to teach, the result would be a teenager with ability that would far superseed an adult who has put in the same amount of training time later in life.
... a good example is any of the Machado or Gracie brothers who have been saturated from childhood with mat work. It's simply another language.
All I can say at this point is just be honest and seek truth. If you love the arts the right teachers will be in your path, it's not a question of having a certificate on the wall, it's a matter of truth. Romantic? Yes. I prefer to live my life that way, it keeps me healthy.
Good training to you,
Dave Copeland
Portland, Oregon
S
Sifu Mike
Guest
RHD your Sifu must be very ashamed of your bad manners. That's if you even have a sifu? You speak of things you know nothing about. That comment you made about my teacher son was uncalled for. He died for what he believed in, freedom. The martial arts have been part of my life for almost 50 years and I most likely started chinese boxing before you were born.
About my streetfighting days, who cares? That was along time ago. I am a man of peace now and could care less what some punk thinks or doesn't think of me. I only wrote back for my students. To them it matters.
Yee Chuan Tao is a family base system and was pasted down from one teacher to one student at a time for over 3000 years. We are Taoist in origin not Buddhist. The Buddhist sold out that's why Wu Shu is still around. If you did a little more studying and a lot less talking you would know there were thousand of systems of boxing before the "Commies" conveniently killed them off.
This will be my last word on the subject Stop talking about me or my art with such disrespect. If you have anything else to say come to Hawaii like a man and say it to my face. Its pretty easy to talk big on the internet. If you wish to truly learn about what I do ask question that pertain to the art it self. Look with a child's eye. May you find the truth, for all your questions.
Peace
Sifu Michael Vendrell
About my streetfighting days, who cares? That was along time ago. I am a man of peace now and could care less what some punk thinks or doesn't think of me. I only wrote back for my students. To them it matters.
Yee Chuan Tao is a family base system and was pasted down from one teacher to one student at a time for over 3000 years. We are Taoist in origin not Buddhist. The Buddhist sold out that's why Wu Shu is still around. If you did a little more studying and a lot less talking you would know there were thousand of systems of boxing before the "Commies" conveniently killed them off.
This will be my last word on the subject Stop talking about me or my art with such disrespect. If you have anything else to say come to Hawaii like a man and say it to my face. Its pretty easy to talk big on the internet. If you wish to truly learn about what I do ask question that pertain to the art it self. Look with a child's eye. May you find the truth, for all your questions.
Peace
Sifu Michael Vendrell
R
RHD
Guest
Sifu Mike said:
Bad Manners? Maybe. My sifu isn't the topic.
You however, are the one who's website boasts of "underground no holds barred cage matches". When you make public claims like that, you should be prepared to back them up.
Buddhists sold out to the communists? Oh boy, can of worms. Talk about rude.
Look at what you're saying...Yee Chuan Tao is 300 years old, yet no one has ever heard of it. Must've beeen one of those "secret" systems.
If I have the opportunity to go to Hawaii, I 'll be sure to stop buy. My question to you is this:
Am I just some punk talking big on the internet, or am I asking legitimate questions based on the information provided by your website and students?
Don't present things as public information if you're not willing or able to discuss them.
So about Yee Chuan Tao, how many emptyhand and weapon forms are there? Which Taoist enclaves was it primarily practiced at? Huashan? Ermei?
Is there any other resource besides yourself that one can learn more about this art? Tell us more about the testing process you underwent to become the grandmaster of the style.
Mike
Sifu Mike, I can understand your frustration with having so many questions asked of you, but there is really no reason to become so defensive and even challenging. You stated in your first post that
I for one am glad to see you on the boards, I'm interested in hearing about YCT and its origins. As I understand it there are no forms or sets in YCT? Is that correct? So it is more along the lines of a fighting philosophy such as JKD? I'm also very interested in the 9 Psalms Praying Mantis you guys teach as I am a mantis practitioner myself. Does it also have no forms or sets? Do you guys work on stances alot? Do you practice chi sau at all? How do you guys start "sparring" or fighting? These are questions I'm interested in hearing the answer to for both YCT and the mantis system you guys teach. As far as the underground fighting, if its not important why list it on your website? Since it is listed and evidently such a major part of your martial arts career, I would love to hear about it as well.
7sm
And now your getting angry towards those who are asking legitimate questions. I too have some legit questions to ask and I am hoping you won't get so defensive and angry at my questions as well. If you read another's post as rude in inconsiderate, don't do the same thing and become rude yourself.Sifu Mike said:
I for one am glad to see you on the boards, I'm interested in hearing about YCT and its origins. As I understand it there are no forms or sets in YCT? Is that correct? So it is more along the lines of a fighting philosophy such as JKD? I'm also very interested in the 9 Psalms Praying Mantis you guys teach as I am a mantis practitioner myself. Does it also have no forms or sets? Do you guys work on stances alot? Do you practice chi sau at all? How do you guys start "sparring" or fighting? These are questions I'm interested in hearing the answer to for both YCT and the mantis system you guys teach. As far as the underground fighting, if its not important why list it on your website? Since it is listed and evidently such a major part of your martial arts career, I would love to hear about it as well.
7sm
grappling_mandala
Green Belt
RHD said:
You know... when people are driving in traffic, they do and say things they probably wouldn't do face to face, say for instance... in the supermarket... the internet is a lot like that. Your initial questions / comments on the illigitimacy of the system (from your first post on this thread) were:
1. what does the name yee chuan tao mean
2. the videos of the 'forms' appear tweaked
3. there is no one else 'teaching' the 'system'
4. there is no clear visable 'root' to stances and footwork
Your intention is clear now as time has passed... now you have changed your argument to try and dismiss details of Vendrell's life.
Hey bro, I mean if your interested in the system your interested right? But your not interested at all I think, you just seem to be afraid that there might be some people out there that are practicing 'traditional' chinese art that doesn't fit into the box you've been trying to put them in since 1990. Your not really taking time to communicate with any of us, your engaging in deconstructive argument.
rhd said:
Actually I believe Sifu Vendrell said it's 3000 years old. Pretty tall order ehh? Almost like Ripleys belieive it or not! There are plenty of closed door schools still around, they arn't just reserved for secret societies of 'triads' like in the comic books. The dissapointing thing for me is that really, the master / disciple relationship predates most organized 'clubs'. Oral tradition is a very powerful form of transmitting information. I don't believe that Vendrell is claiming Yee Chuan Tao is a secret system. But maybe you are being sarcastic, if you would stop that it would be easier to communicate with you clearly. It's hard to discern sarcasm on the internet, and sarcasm is one of those things that is used sparringly face to face. The internet does have it's limits bro. Be nice.
RHD said:
Mike - you didn't read my response to you previously, you must have skipped over it. Yee Chuan Tao is formless. There are no set forms.
Also take into concideration there are no tones on the internet, I know you know this. Sarcasm is hard to discern.
I hope this is helpful to you in some way
Dave Copeland
Portland, Oregon
R
RHD
Guest
grappling_mandala said:
My initial comments and questions stand. The video clip on the website is of a form...now the system is formless. I'm attempting to find out the reality behind the claims. If somone publically claims to have fought in underground cage matches in thier teens, and uses this as a "selling point" for thier validity as an instructor, they better damn well be able to prove it...otherwise it fall intothe category of B.S.
I'm not dismissing parts of Mr. Vendrell's life. These are questions and comments based upon what information is available: a short biography, some remarks from students, and a few video clips. Too me, with what experience I have, the Yee Chuan Tao system sounds made up. The history in the biography sounds made up or at the least quite exaggerated. There's a lot of big holes in the story, and I'm very surprised that in 2004 their are still systems that no one's heard of. All of these things are usually signs of fraud. If its a Taoist art that's 3000 years old, it should have more of a documented history than what's given. What is the link to other Taoist arts? No one seems to want to answer anything.
Deconstructive? How about damaging to CMA? Big claims, unverifiable history, and now no forms. So as a kid, he just learned weapons with no prearranged training patterns? What about the mysterious reindeer form mentioned by aNadia? Older than Tai Chi? Oldest martial art, blah blah blah.
Give us all a break. And please...stop trying to play the "higher" ground routine. The questions and comments come from what's been presented. Have you done any research into the background of Yee chuan tao? Or do you take it all at face value? The role of the student is to study and ask quetions, not blindly follow. Consider me a student of CMA's in general.
Mike
MOD WARNING
Gentlemen Please keep the discussion POLITE and RESPECTFUL.
RHD please read the threads on Fraud busting and comply with what is posted there. They have answered some of the questions.
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Sifu Mike welcome to the forum. You have entered into a "hot " thread and we thank you for joining us and answering some of the questions asked. I know that others including 7*Mantis have some questions. Most of us ask for the gain of knowledge not to belittle anyone. I hope you enjoy your stay here at Martialtalk. Please feel free to ask and answer questions and to start threads on subjects you feel you would like to explore.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
tshadowchaser
Sheldon Bedell MT MOD
Gentlemen Please keep the discussion POLITE and RESPECTFUL.
RHD please read the threads on Fraud busting and comply with what is posted there. They have answered some of the questions.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Sifu Mike welcome to the forum. You have entered into a "hot " thread and we thank you for joining us and answering some of the questions asked. I know that others including 7*Mantis have some questions. Most of us ask for the gain of knowledge not to belittle anyone. I hope you enjoy your stay here at Martialtalk. Please feel free to ask and answer questions and to start threads on subjects you feel you would like to explore.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
tshadowchaser
Sheldon Bedell MT MOD
R
RHD
Guest
tshadowchaser said:
No problem tshadowchaser...I'll drop the thread.
Mike
grappling_mandala
Green Belt
RHD said:
Allow me to clarify. Formless form is movement that is not rehersed or memorized. What you saw Sifu Mike do was spontaneous movement in response to an imaginary fight made up on the spot.
RHD said:
The only way for him to prove something like that to you would be for you to square off with him and prove it. how else could you prove street fighting? That's a choice all artists can sense when they approach a teacher. We're all looking for answers we can FEEL right? Yet somehow we don't all go around fighting each other, you should just be able to tell, then learn. You can learn from everyone this way, but it's a lot more amplified with practitioners that are a couple generations ahead of you and then THEY have studied with people a couple generations ahead of them! that puts you in contact with real historical knowledge of 4 generations within a basic, teacher-student natural relationship. That just doesn't exist without oral tradition.
Lets move on though, cage fighting is a more 'personal' issue of believe between you and sifu mike, I'd rather talk about what you are defining 'traditional chinese martial art' as.
As a student of chinest martial are "in general", you probably already know that there seems to be a common 'goal' in the arts right? What is the goal?
To play music with others. We can listen to the music we like, but that doesn't make you a musician. On another level, a recital pianist is no jazz player. Memorizing poetry is not writing it. The search for reality in the 'forms' of the art beg to be questioned by those practicing. The historical evidence that all true chinese martial art is isolated to the popular lineages highlighted by family lineage charts is errored. The philosophy of kung fu came from india, but there is history that says taoists developed arts independant of that lineage and independant (and predating) the three treasures (tai chi ba gua xing yi). The treasures are to recent to account for all lineages in 3000 years of taoist oral tradition. What is it about those darn mystic traditions that seem to breed alternative Ways of thinking? ....
Why are all the legends and tails of old monks and hermits, why is philosophy and knowledge associated with mastery? It's funny that all those old lineage charts always go back to a single founder, i wonder what made the founders special... is there a connective thread between the founders? We could never know because we'd have to travel in time... Nah it's just how 'family trees' works. And there is something about geneology that just kinda grounds a person in their trust that they are searching for truth in the right direction. It's easy to trust written history, it seems the Anglo culture began to distrust word of mouth long ago. Winners of wars write history. The rest is B.S. Forget about travel, it's worthless.
RHD said:
Basically you'd actually have to trust he wasn't lying, and we don't do that today. It's very difficult because our perceptions of the people around us are suspicious. But you know if you called him up, he would want to talk to you about kung fu, cuz he's a kung fu master. The system embodies Taoist principles. True, you are basing your assumptions on the limited perception bandwidth of the internet... so lets expand a bit.... Taoists traditionally passed on knowledge thru master disciple relationships based in oral tradition. There are still oral traditions occuring today in places where 'the grid' hasn't touches yet. But nomads and tribes and all other 'primitive' people groups will soon be overtaken by the 'new economic order' of the world, so anyways lets move on....
One thing about Taoist principles is a sense of constant innovation based on personal experience and context. Natural relationships of growth. If passing on a 'form' means that the "system" of the originator is preserved, yet those learning it can not embody the princples that the form teaches, then what has been 'preserved'? Nothing. The form looses it's meaning. If the founder can't get students to have their own realizations he doesn't transmit his art. You can memorize poetry but that doesn't mean you can write. To speak your own shakespear is to transcend form. Poetry comes from the heart. The traditional master disciple relationship is significant.
RHD said:
Big Claims? I'm trying to use the internet to it's fullest in communicating with you, but what the pursuit of Art in general has to communicate you can't some up in words. All I can say is Vendrell is a good tour guide. But i'm driving my own boat. Just like you. I we should all train with as many people as we can, to seek and reach thru our own movement rather then simply replicating others, we are all unique. Yet the process of realization is constant.
Damaging to CMA? Ouch. Let's examine that one more clearly....
I don't think that teaching an art that embodies taoist principles is damaging to the chinese arts. It would be damaging to associations founded around exploiting the natural master disciple relationship. Perhaps it would damage people making money off reassuring westerners that what they are learning is 'authentic'. Simple the ability to discern kinesthetic experience is very powerful. To FEEL what it is we;re looking for! Without discernment I suppose it's just easier to relie on lineage charts, and family name associations.
Shouldn't we be looking for the common truths behind the arts. That all the variables lead into a singularity, and the only way to get there is to learn the underlying language? So I wonder what this language is.
What is the truth of martial art? Us. Humans. The art of movement of the human body. Relationship. Style is secondary to the core of what movement is. If you look hard enough, the core the lays benieth the style of any 'master' is very similar.
You say that I am playing a higher ground... thanks for the compliment? I'm just being myself. I love martial art. I can talk about it all day long! Read what Bruce Lee, and Ueshiba have said about 'form' and 'formlessness'. They are much higher then me. They both had much to say on form and formlessness.
A little more on form and formlessness. i think once a form is learned, there must be a transitional period between learning the form, and embodying the form to make it your own. To let it teach you something about movement. Once you learn... is it still a form anymore?
Once you understand a jab, cross, hook and uppercut is that it? How do you make conversations with these things? Transitional awareness. The working together of the whole, a relationship of stillness to motion.
How do other arts embody the same principles as this? What is the connective thread that links movement of all styles? Yee Chuan Tao is an art that seeks the truth of movement, not style. Style exists as an embodiment of personality once your art is your own. Animal styles? Different tools for different tasks. The myriad of animals partake in the same creation. They are not all the same, but if you look closely, you see the same geometry connects them all to the web of creation. The geometry of human form connects all martial style together. It's not hard to see, it's very natural. Observing animals is an important aspect of kung fu! Hey that sounds taoist. Weird.
RHD said:
Ok. Break time. I LOVE martial art. In fact. I love ART. You see ART to me is the meaning of martial art. Which is love manifest in expression. If we were only 'martialists'.... and then there were 'artists'... well that would be a different world. But me, I'm a 'martial artist'. To me that is a lot bigger then just learning how to beat people up, which although it's fun to dissapoint peoples violent aspirations, doesn't really promote peace in and of itself. Ok, I'm done with break time. <wink/sarcasm>
RHD said:
I like to put a lot of thought into what I put out on the 'internet' for people to read. If we really want to know each other we shouldn't be afraid to share our hearts. I believe that we write is important, it's language, a part of the puzzle for us to put together. Yee Chuan Tao is a unique art that I have happened to cross paths with. I'm not trying to sell you anything bro. We're actually brothers in so far as we're both artists looking for truth. I take the time to write all this because I love sharing martial art. No doubt countless people will read this outside of the context of it being delivered to RHD. The internet is awesome! keep the internet non-corprate controlled!
Judgement is judgement. Regardless of style or art. Judgement is a false reflection confused by ego awareness. I could judge you based on the line of arts you've studied, to think I know something about your movement based on what tools, ranges and direction those styles you have have transmitted to you. But that wuld only be an ego assumption. Not a real relationship with you.
In fact we are dealing with a language. A language of movement and expression. We are communicating with it on both a social... and personal level. My judgement without physical presense will not be able to reflect on your personality... that's a big deal! With judgement I don't really know you. I do not know your LOVE of movement. Where you are able to manifest energy, that is a product of your enthusiasm. Movement that occurs from within. That's the importance of good teachers, spotting areas of love and bringing them out. Just as much as it's important to strengthen the weak, amplifying enthusiasm brings a love that translates into real skill.
It is not violence that feeds true skill, it's love which breeds enthusiasm for the work. Anger simply attempts to quench spontaneous creativity in expression. The ability to yeild to neutrality ceases with anger. Sounds taoist. A creative approach is formless in that it does not cling to habits unsuited for the task at hand. Sounds taoist.
Knowing the myriad of expressions nature reflects, the artist is free to respond from the most neutral of positions possible, internal and external. Shock absober and whip built into one.
Compare the master of movement to a master swimmer. the swimmer knowing all his strokes could be tossed about the currents yet work freely between his strokes to actually move WITH the currents. (sounds pretty taoist ehh? - don't worry I'm a Christian too!)
We're dealing with a language of movement and everyone has a unique dialect. Sure you can say it's just the effects of body type on any specific style, and we're genetically predispositioned to just automatically go there like the conditioned robots that we are... that martial art is conditioned reflexes that are just meant for killing during fight or flight. That the whole 'highest martial art is healing' is bogus nonsense. But where is the magic in that? Where is that real peace and healing that love brings? It's not there. The real skill thru understanding natural relationship isn't there. That's pretty taoist huh...
RHD said:
Yes I hope the depth of this message constitutes reassurance that I love to research movement arts thru direct physical contact with other artists. In this way the substance of 'masters' and 'lineages' can be experienced in a directly experiential way for the seeker. I just can't be the judge until I feel, then I know. I don't trust much I can't experience. Books and hear say is nice, but I need cold hard facts to back up claims. Thus my reason for traveling to hawaii to study yee chuan tao from sifu mike vendrell.
Honestly, the questions and comments seem to me a product of overreliance on information technology to affirm self-interest in the art your currently studying. I think in seeking face to face training with as many different masters as possible you have the rare oppotunity to constantly look for the common connective thread between true masters. The more limited your contact with masters, the less opporunity you have to look for it. It doesn't matter what style, just what you feel and the connections that are made during the process of discovery in natural master disciple relationships.
We are all striving for realizations that stick. Realizations that take on kinesthetic significance. We live in a time that we can take advantage of modern technology to travel the globe and trade information... yet words remain abstractions to the actual experience of good push-hands. Poetry in motion.
Cooperative movement and yeilding can only increase awareness, endless misapplied force will only increase bad habits. Sound pacifist? That's cuz Yee Chuan is taoist. Taoism is a form of philosophy that uses observation of natural relationship as a guide to understanding internal and cosmic relationships.
Perhaps martial art is simplly a discovery process of something inside of us that is already apart of us? Sounds more like religion, but Modern media has produced some odd perceptions of what strength and power are. I believe to detriment of the martial artist in search of the realities behind the language that he is learning to speak.
The mind of the artist that can not see between the lines... can he move between the lines? Poetic higher ground? You can't fight with poetry can you? Can you? Unless of course, the phonetic source, is a hermetic course... in self discovery... but to some simply synthetic, a pathetic drum to some a discoursive arrangement of magnetic aesthetics... or possibly poetic arrangements of an energetic alphabet. A puzzle for the mind... this language we speak. Expressed in so many ways we say the same things over and over, and if we're lucky when we die we arn't saying the same things we learned from our parents.
In closing, it's important for everyong to step out of the box of form once it's learned. The air is fresh and your missing valuable time you could be standing outside with your arms playing in the wind, breathing the fresh air of the season.
Kindest Regards and good training to you,
Dave Copeland
Portland, Oregon
PS - you gotta do kung fu in a strong wind, it's the best. Elemental spirals correcting posture from honest fatigue.
OP
OP
Ninway J
Guest
Interesting.
So in regard to forms, YCT does seem to have the same philosophy as JKD. What about when it comes to doing forms at competitions? Do you just make up the forms prior to the competition, or is it an impromptu form right when you hit the floor at the competition? After the competition, I guess the form is never recalled ever again?
So in regard to forms, YCT does seem to have the same philosophy as JKD. What about when it comes to doing forms at competitions? Do you just make up the forms prior to the competition, or is it an impromptu form right when you hit the floor at the competition? After the competition, I guess the form is never recalled ever again?
S
Sifu Mike
Guest
Great question. I for one do not like competition it only breeds contempt. “He who does not compete has no competitors.” But some of my students like to do so anyway so what I do is using the concepts that align with the students and their chosen weapon, (that includes the body) and we create a form made up of techniques and movements customized just for them.
When I do demos or exhibitions I always free form, it's much more fun and alive.
Sifu Mike
When I do demos or exhibitions I always free form, it's much more fun and alive.
Sifu Mike
OP
OP
Ninway J
Guest
Grappling Mandala mentioned lots of philosophical observations, or truths even, in his last post. I am reminded of Bruce Lee's saying regarding martial arts in that unless humans have more than 2 arms and 2 legs, then we will never have a different kind of martial art.
YCT, like JKD, seems to encourage finding your individual way of fighting. JKD does not believe that training in forms is the way. YCT, similarly, does not believe that training in SET forms is the way, however impromptu forms are okay to perform. Hence, the "formless form."
There seems to be two different types of martial artists. The first being traditional, in that they prefer to keep the techniques, training, forms, and philosophy the same as it was hundreds or thousands of years ago. Then theres the non-traditional, of course, who prefers to keep "what works" and discard "what doesn't" work for the individual. JKD and other MMA fit into this category.
YCT seems to straddle both categories in that it claims to be 3000 years old, but has a non-traditional approach to fighting. How much of what was created in the art of YCT 3000 years ago is still being taught today? And then the same question could also be asked of other traditional martial arts. How much of what was created in the art of *a certain traditional martial art**a certain number of years ago* is still being taught today? I think most, if not all, traditional martial arts evolve in some way.
What makes a martial art "legit?" For most people nowdays, a legit martial art must have a verifiable history and lineage, among other things, on record. If people see a certain martial art as not legit, does it mean it is not effective in a combat or street-fighting situation, or even spiritually? Probably not. YCT does not have a verifiable history or lineage, which means it could not be true, but doesn't mean that it isn't true. It would be up to the individual to take up a martial art like this, or not.
I think people in the CMA community are resentful of YCT, it's instructors and practitioners, because they(CMArtists) have a preconceived idea of what a CMA should be like. They don't see YCT as being in the CMA box, so to them it must not be a true CMA. With this in mind, what then would make YCT a CMA? Maybe the Taoist principles? Maybe the use of traditional Chinese weapons? Maybe the use of animal fighting techniques so characteristic of CMA? Maybe that Sifu Mike was trained by a Chinese person?
I was once told a long time ago that NO martial art has ever been created. There is no such thing as a new technique, new weapon, new form, new meditation, etc. Everything has actually been here from the beginning, and we as human beings have just found out things through discovery and realization.
I also like how Pesilat put it in one of his posts regarding the "pool."
http://martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=181114&postcount=7
YCT, like JKD, seems to encourage finding your individual way of fighting. JKD does not believe that training in forms is the way. YCT, similarly, does not believe that training in SET forms is the way, however impromptu forms are okay to perform. Hence, the "formless form."
There seems to be two different types of martial artists. The first being traditional, in that they prefer to keep the techniques, training, forms, and philosophy the same as it was hundreds or thousands of years ago. Then theres the non-traditional, of course, who prefers to keep "what works" and discard "what doesn't" work for the individual. JKD and other MMA fit into this category.
YCT seems to straddle both categories in that it claims to be 3000 years old, but has a non-traditional approach to fighting. How much of what was created in the art of YCT 3000 years ago is still being taught today? And then the same question could also be asked of other traditional martial arts. How much of what was created in the art of *a certain traditional martial art**a certain number of years ago* is still being taught today? I think most, if not all, traditional martial arts evolve in some way.
What makes a martial art "legit?" For most people nowdays, a legit martial art must have a verifiable history and lineage, among other things, on record. If people see a certain martial art as not legit, does it mean it is not effective in a combat or street-fighting situation, or even spiritually? Probably not. YCT does not have a verifiable history or lineage, which means it could not be true, but doesn't mean that it isn't true. It would be up to the individual to take up a martial art like this, or not.
I think people in the CMA community are resentful of YCT, it's instructors and practitioners, because they(CMArtists) have a preconceived idea of what a CMA should be like. They don't see YCT as being in the CMA box, so to them it must not be a true CMA. With this in mind, what then would make YCT a CMA? Maybe the Taoist principles? Maybe the use of traditional Chinese weapons? Maybe the use of animal fighting techniques so characteristic of CMA? Maybe that Sifu Mike was trained by a Chinese person?
I was once told a long time ago that NO martial art has ever been created. There is no such thing as a new technique, new weapon, new form, new meditation, etc. Everything has actually been here from the beginning, and we as human beings have just found out things through discovery and realization.
I also like how Pesilat put it in one of his posts regarding the "pool."
http://martialtalk.com/forum/showpost.php?p=181114&postcount=7
S
Sifu Mike
Guest
YCT is not a traditional martial art. For by saying it is traditional is to say that each person that does the art looks like every other person who does the art. Thats what it takes to keep a tradition alive, and for some people that is a good thing.
I like to look at YCT as a classical martial art instead. By learning concept instead of set moves a student can learn what works for them best and then build on that.
If you were to learn any other art form say, like painting. You would learn first to draw then how to make thing look 3D through shading and you would keep building your concept base untill you could get to use paints and brushes to paint oil paintings and so on. The goal in that art form is to paint an original work of art that transfers the feeling of the artist to viewer.
It is much easier to learn and teach the pre-set forms of the traditional martial arts, its like painting by number. YCT is a creative art form and to the best of my knownledge has always been taught this way. One of of my favorite sayings is "You can't step on the same river twice" no two students of the art look alike. This is how it was taught to me, and it has always proven effective.
Sifu Mike
I like to look at YCT as a classical martial art instead. By learning concept instead of set moves a student can learn what works for them best and then build on that.
If you were to learn any other art form say, like painting. You would learn first to draw then how to make thing look 3D through shading and you would keep building your concept base untill you could get to use paints and brushes to paint oil paintings and so on. The goal in that art form is to paint an original work of art that transfers the feeling of the artist to viewer.
It is much easier to learn and teach the pre-set forms of the traditional martial arts, its like painting by number. YCT is a creative art form and to the best of my knownledge has always been taught this way. One of of my favorite sayings is "You can't step on the same river twice" no two students of the art look alike. This is how it was taught to me, and it has always proven effective.
Sifu Mike
C
chee
Guest
I only compete because I like competing. It is the only way I get to perform and tell others about Yee Chuan Tao. I believe it also builds character strength in younger students. Of course they should never be made to participate. It is however, something I believe every student should have to face at least once in their life. Facing or doing something that is challenging to them, facing their fears then coming to terms with perhaps not winning but doing their best is the real reward. It's not all about winning.
