Kung Fu School Information please?

[Tensei85]

Professor Yuzeng Liu

Director, Qin'na Fighting and Teaching Section at
China's National Police Academy in Henan

31st Generation Shaolin Disciple (De Yu)

8th Generation Wudang Disciple

He is certified as a National First Class Judge in China for forms and san shou (fighting) events.

Check Duan system of ranking for Wushu:

http://www.iwuf.org/news_news1_1.asp?id=462

I'm guessing this is where the info came from, http://www.wudang.com/English/Welcome/YuzengLiu.html

 

[Xue Sheng]

Sorry this is going off post and maybe it should be a post of its own but

I have a question about Kajukenbo; why are they using Chinese terms at all since thier origin is mostly not Chinese?

Ka = Karate
Ju = Judo and Jujitsu
Ken = Kenpo
Bo = Chinese boxing

All that is from here

It sounds like a rather nice style that I would not mind checking out someday but why are they using Chinese titles at all?

 

[Flying Crane]

I understand completely and agree 100%. Sifu is my teacher, sigung is my teachers' teacher. Case closed. That's why I said it's odd that they do it the way they do. The Kaju folks aren't dumb, I assume they know the translation, I have no idea why they did it.

well, it's not just the kaju people. There is a prominent kenpo guy who apparently likes to use the title Sigung as well. I don't know how he got the title, if someone else started calling him that, or if he adopted it himself. But the bottom line is, for some people he would be Sigung, and for other people he would be Sifu, and it totally depends on the individual's relationship with him.

Adopting Sigung as a general title just doesn't work.

 

[blindsage]

Sorry this is going off post and maybe it should be a post of its own but

I have a question about Kajukenbo; why are they using Chinese terms at all since thier origin is mostly not Chinese?

Ka = Karate
Ju = Judo and Jujitsu
Ken = Kenpo
Bo = Chinese boxing

All that is from here

It sounds like a rather nice style that I would not mind checking out someday but why are they using Chinese titles at all?

I've tried to find this out as well in the past, but I can't find any explanation for it on the net. My wife recently started training at a Kajukenbo school, I see if I can find a diplomatic way of asking her instructor if she knows the answer to this question.

 

[UNYMA]

I'll throw this out as a possibility but know that it's just conjecture. Kajukenbo originated in Hawaii, many of the martial artists in that period were imigrants from China, the Philipines, Japan etc. so even though the origins weren't specifically Chinese, many of the people in the area were. If you want to communicate standing to a group of people it's easiest to do it in a language they use. It's a logical progression albeit totally hypothetical.

 

[blindsage]

I'll throw this out as a possibility but know that it's just conjecture. Kajukenbo originated in Hawaii, many of the martial artists in that period were imigrants from China, the Philipines, Japan etc. so even though the origins weren't specifically Chinese, many of the people in the area were. If you want to communicate standing to a group of people it's easiest to do it in a language they use. It's a logical progression albeit totally hypothetical.

But wouldn't you just confuse them since you would be taking the terminology from their native language and using it out of context?

 

[UNYMA]

Certainly a valid point but if I know you place great value or respect on a specific title (and yes I realize that Sigung, for example, isn't a title but really just word that defines a relationship, but truly, who doesn't hold their Sigung in very high regard) and I want you to place that same amount of respect in me then I would want to use a term I know you equate with respect. Yes it would be out of context but when you don't really know what I mean anyway the context is shaped by your notions of the words I use.

 

[blindsage]

I decided to go straight to our own source, I posted a topic asking this question in the Kajukenbo section of Martial Talk (here).

I tried being diplomatic. Hopefully we will get a good answer. (I will still inquire with my wife's instructor as well).

 

[Xue Sheng]

Certainly a valid point but if I know you place great value or respect on a specific title (and yes I realize that Sigung, for example, isn't a title but really just word that defines a relationship, but truly, who doesn't hold their Sigung in very high regard) and I want you to place that same amount of respect in me then I would want to use a term I know you equate with respect. Yes it would be out of context but when you don't really know what I mean anyway the context is shaped by your notions of the words I use.

Sifu is a term of respect and is your teacher

Sigung is a term of respect and is your teacher's teacher

Sifu is not a lower term of less respect it is, as far as the student is concerned, the same your sifu is just younger and 1 generation further along and the term sifu has a whole lot of respect that comes with it. So why oh why do people want to lock onto sigung when they most definitely are not. Let me link this again.

Just because you think Grandfather is a term deserving more respect does not mean you should have your kid’s call you grandfather, you are there father. And that is not out of context it is improper usage.

And using sigung when you should use sifu is not out of context either it is a blatant disregard for proper translation and usage.

 

[UNYMA]

Short answer - beats me why it's done. I was just trying to come up with a logical reason and it's not really logical.

 

[grayarea]

Thank you very much. He has different schools. I am not Chinese so I may have mixed up some of this. I will check again. Here is something I found on Google that I thought might be useful to our discussion.

www.yumihohm.com/kungfu/tournament/seminar.pdf

http://www.yumihohm.com/kungfu/anniv-tourn-seminars.htm

CONGRATULATIONS SCOTT WINOKUR USA MARTIAL ARTS HALL OF FAME


USA MARTIAL ARTS HALL OF FAME INDUCTEE
MARCH 31st, 2007
Midwest Chinese Martial art Center
8201 Wornell KC, MO
(816)444-4777
www.Kungfukc.com
On March 31st, 2007 Master Winokur was inducted into the USA Martial Arts Hall of Fame at a ceremony in Richmond, Indiana. Master Winokur is only the fifth person from Missouri and the first form the city of Kansas City to recieve this honor. Master Winokur continues to operate the Midwest Chinese Martial Arts Center at 8201 Wornell Road and his students continue to pass on his knowledge across the nation and the Metro area with schools in Baltimore, New York, Nevada, Oklahoma City, Kansas City, Raytown and Overland Park. The headquarters school recieved Waldo's Best Property Award in 2006.
Master Scott Winokur began training in Chinese Kung Fu in 1978 and has nearly 30 years of experience. Master Winokur has black belts in Chinese, Japanese, Okinowan, and Korean martial arts. He is a 5th generation Lung Lum Pai Dragon Kung Fu disciple under Master C.F. Tong and in 1999 was recognized and accepted as a disciple student of 31st Generation Shaolin Temple and 8th generation Wu Dang temple disciple Professor Yu Zheng Liu. Master Winokur serves as president of the USA Xing Yong Chinese Martial Arts Association



03-24-2007 (2 da days)
7th Golden Dragon Martial Arts Classic
Please attend the 7th Golden Dragon Classic & Masters Workshops. Held in Kansas City sponsered by Pepsi, Tigerclaw.com, and Liberty Fruit CO. 200 + divisions of all styles of Chinese, Okinawan, Japanese, and Korean Styles welcome, Southern Long, Short, Wing Chun, all Tai Chi styles, long, short, Double/Flex weapons, 2person forms/weapons $45 for 2 events and $10 extra events, spectators fees $5 adults, $3 kids6-12, 5 and under FREE. Hotel and registration forms at www.kungfukc.com click golden dragon icon for more info email [email protected] or call Midwest Chinese Martial Arts Center Sifu Scott Winokur 816-444-4777 in Kansas City, MO 64114 USA Event held at Shawnee Mission South Highschool 5800 W 107th St 66207
For more information, contact: Sifu Scott Winokur-Midwest Chinese Martial Arts
Phone: 816-444-4777
Event Address: 8201 Wornall Rd Headquarters
Kansas City, MO, 64114 USA
Online: [email protected] - www.kungfukc.com
EVENT ID: 2576 Edit

 

[grayarea]

The last email is only meant as a due diligence effort to use the simplest tool I could find to determine if someone really exists in the realm they claim. As far as Google goes some people I see here as Masters do not show up when searched for. As I was told before "it is just the internet, don't sweat the small stuff."

Thanks all for the good conversation. I am enjoying it.

Charles Gray
Lowly Kung Fu student

 

[blindsage]

CONGRATULATIONS SCOTT WINOKUR USA MARTIAL ARTS HALL OF FAME


USA MARTIAL ARTS HALL OF FAME INDUCTEE
MARCH 31st, 2007
Midwest Chinese Martial art Center
8201 Wornell KC, MO
(816)444-4777
www.Kungfukc.com
On March 31st, 2007 Master Winokur was inducted into the USA Martial Arts Hall of Fame at a ceremony in Richmond, Indiana. Master Winokur is only the fifth person from Missouri and the first form the city of Kansas City to recieve this honor. Master Winokur continues to operate the Midwest Chinese Martial Arts Center at 8201 Wornell Road and his students continue to pass on his knowledge across the nation and the Metro area with schools in Baltimore, New York, Nevada, Oklahoma City, Kansas City, Raytown and Overland Park. The headquarters school recieved Waldo's Best Property Award in 2006.
Master Scott Winokur began training in Chinese Kung Fu in 1978 and has nearly 30 years of experience. Master Winokur has black belts in Chinese, Japanese, Okinowan, and Korean martial arts. He is a 5th generation Lung Lum Pai Dragon Kung Fu disciple under Master C.F. Tong and in 1999 was recognized and accepted as a disciple student of 31st Generation Shaolin Temple and 8th generation Wu Dang temple disciple Professor Yu Zheng Liu. Master Winokur serves as president of the USA Xing Yong Chinese Martial Arts Association

Here's the USA Martial Arts Hall of Fame website: http://www.usnmat.net/. I'll let you all decide for yourselves what value it has for anything, but I did note that there are 14 inductees from Missouri, maybe they've added 9 in 2 years, but since it this "Hall of Fame" claims to have existed since 1976, I find it a little odd one way or another.

 

[grayarea]

As has been stated before it is the internet. The internet is a con man's paradise. You can never tell who is here. It is sometimes hard to tell meeting people in person whether they are sincere or not. As also has been stated here a good library can give you the correct lingo to use.

You must judge a man/woman in person. If you choose to be a skeptic and never take anyone at face value then that is your choice. I have made a strong attempt to keep minds open here. Some are very closed, some are very open. The only person I had to convince of my Sifu's knowledge and abilities is me. Read my other posts here. I am convinced beyond doubt. After 4 years of studying I know what I can do even though I cannot explain my Sifu's training as well as he can. That is why I can only teach when supervised.

My Sifu is a very talented martial artist trained in many disciplines. If in the neighborhood come see for yourself. Also I think I am the only grey haired man on the website http://www.kungfukc.com Look under "upcoming events". My family and I are there.

I still love the conversations here. I see a lot of different viewpoints and styles represented here.

Charles Gray
Kansas City, MO

 

[Tensei85]

Grayarea,
So maybe to clarify;

Is Qi Lu Quan (Chi Lu Chuan) an invention of Mr. Winokur? It says its based off of 8 Animals, so why the need to change it to a seperate style?
What is the meaning behind the name Qi Lu Quan (7 Roads Fist)? How does it correspond to 8 Animals?

Is Bai Liu and invention of Mr. Winokur? What is the foundation for Bai Liu?
What comprises Bai Liu? as I see he mentions "it is a modern approach", how is this different than the other approaches he teaches?.

He mentions Qi Lu Quan Qin Na, what is the foundation for this type of Qin Na, is it Shaolin in nature?

I still fale to see how "Trapping & Intercepting" are considered a style, maybe he should reinvent the website a bit, take off a few things that are really not styles & it would leave less questions and or concerns.

I see he now refers to himself as "Sitai Gung" (his White willow page), why the need for such a title? It doesn't equate to Grandmaster or Great Grandmaster, it is a familial title based on that hierarchy.

One last point not really a question but; its not really that important, I see he mixes and matches the Mandarin & Cantonese terminology, It may give more credit if he stuck with one or the other instead of going into Bai Liu & then putting in a Cantonese term like "Sitai Gung".

I think if these points were elaborated on it would leave a lot fewer questions to wonder. Since your an Instructor in training it would be great if you could touch on these topics.

It's great that you are enjoying the training there, best luck!

For the record I'm not trying to accuse him of anything as I'm sure he has skills & knows his stuff, but I'm just a little confused at some of the wording so am seeking clarification not challenging his legitamacy.

Thanks,

 

[Xue Sheng]

Sitai Gung :disgust:

Great more self appointed titles from people who are clueless about the language and its meaning who NOW are mixing two dialects that, for the most part, CAN'T TALK TO ONE ANOTHER!!!!!

From now on when post to me please refer to me by my new self-appointed title of Chueh 皇帝 Gott von Xuefu

 

[grayarea]

Yes I do wish we all spoke/wrote all Chinese dialects so that we would not make mistakes in the writing. However, the same can be said for Korean, Japanese and all other teachers of martial arts who do not know the language of the country from which their art springs. I think that quite a few fall into this category especially "us Americans".

However, since I cannot correct every American that teaches a martial art, I will print the comments/questions of the post by Tensei85 and hand them to my Sifu.

He is a US born Jewish man so I quite expect some of the Chinese language to be mistaken.

Thank you all for your conversation.

Charles Gray
Lowly Kung Fu student

 

[Tensei85]

Yes I do wish we all spoke/wrote all Chinese dialects so that we would not make mistakes in the writing. However, the same can be said for Korean, Japanese and all other teachers of martial arts who do not know the language of the country from which their art springs. I think that quite a few fall into this category especially "us Americans".

However, since I cannot correct every American that teaches a martial art, I will print the comments/questions of the post by Tensei85 and hand them to my Sifu.

He is a US born Jewish man so I quite expect some of the Chinese language to be mistaken.

Thank you all for your conversation.

Charles Gray
Lowly Kung Fu student

Thanks for the reply, I can understand that but I think this verbiage would apply, "if you don't know it than don't use it" may be helpful... and give more credit back to the source as well.

Just like if I was trying to teach Savate or even Muay Thai, I'm not going to try and use the terminology from a language I don't know, understand or comprehend. I will teach what I know, and what is legit. If people have a problem with me not speaking or using the terminology from that language then I would say "buy a dictionary".

In the end I don't think people, especially in America have a problem with a white guy teaching Chinese Gong Fu and not using Chinese terminology, in fact a lot of the Guan's in the U.S. do not adapt Chinese terms, & its cool as long as what they are teaching is useful. But in this case it makes it seem that one is trying to garner legitamacy by using generic Chinese terms from a mesh of Cantonese/Mandarin Martial Arts phrases, I know thats not the case but to me that would be my opinion as a 3rd person perspective.

p.s. thanks for taking the time to bring my questions to your Sifu, its much appreciated for your efforts, will be waiting for your reply.

All the best,

 

[Xue Sheng]

When I taught I did not use any Chinese terms since my class was not made up of Chinese people. My sifu, who is Chinese, does not use any Chinese terminology on any of his student, other than me, because most do not speak any Chinese at all. My first sifu who is also Chinese only used Chinese terms when he could not figure out the English and my Sanda sifu who is Chinese (all are born and raised on mainland by the way) uses no Chinese at all either.

If I teach agian I will not use Chinese terms unless it is easier and then I can explain what that term means or unless my students ask what the Chinese is for what we are doing.

Chueh 皇帝 Gott von Xuefu

 

[Tensei85]

What Chueh 皇帝 Gott von Xuefu aka G.M. Xue of the International Xue Fu Do Association said!

Haha, my Sifu's have all used Chinese in teaching but this is due because they were more comfortable using the Chinese as their English was generally only so-so, + I knew what they were saying.

But if you can convey the proper meaning which by the way is rather hard from one language to another, but if you can than that's all that counts.

Besides that I think alot of it's in the teaching methods, by that I mean how they teach, how they transmit as a Sifu. I've met Sifu's that by all means could only say maybe 10 Words in English (Most words were "do 100 times or do 50 times", or my favorite its just o.k. do 100 more times ; ) but they could teach phenomenally to the "only" English speaking Students.

So if you can have a Sifu that can transmit knowledge in that manner, than its really priceless!