Yee Chuan Tao

[Keaka o Kanaka]

I don't know if I should revive this thread or not considering that everyone's pretty well convinced Sifu Mike is a fake. I have a website that has Gene Lebell speaking very highly of him. Gene Lebell even named a move after my Sifu. If this doesn't prove to you people that he's legit....then I really don't know what will. Read the story about Brandon Lee and he speaks of Sifu Mike.

http://www.genelebell.com/stories.asp

 

[7starmantis]

I don't know if I should revive this thread or not considering that everyone's pretty well convinced Sifu Mike is a fake. I have a website that has Gene Lebell speaking very highly of him. Gene Lebell even named a move after my Sifu. If this doesn't prove to you people that he's legit....then I really don't know what will. Read the story about Brandon Lee and he speaks of Sifu Mike.

http://www.genelebell.com/stories.asp

I don't know who Gene LeBell is and having looked at that website I see someone who places alot of their identity in being recognized by famous people. I find that kind of sad and it doesn't really give me a huge respect for this Lebell guy or whomever he recognizes as legit. You guys seem to place alot of stake in what actors say. A hollywood actor doesn't hold much weight for me. Whether or not one of them says good things about someone, doesn't make me think they are legit. I think its also a sign of something that you feel the need to prove the legitimacy of your sifu. Your legitimacy should be proved by your skill, not by signed pictures of famous people.

7sm

 

[RevelationX]

I hate to interject at this late in the game but...here is my take. Ask your instructor to name EVERY liniage from EVERY art he has "masterd" by at least one generation. Names, schools, organizations, locations, even phone numbers of the most recent. This will give you (and everyone else) the answer.

I do not doubt that your teacher may have some Martial skill and/or experience. From my second day training in Wing Chun I could show your average joe something impressive and look good doing it. This ,however, did not make me a "Master". And, I also do not doubt that you are receiving some benefit from your association and training with him. I do however doubt his claims, his system, and his scruples, for if he his in fact decieving you in a few aspects, what other parts of his character (that you have yet to see) are also deceptive? Just some food for thought.

FWIW, In all my years of studying the history and background of CMA, I personally have NEVER heard of an art created by a one arm man. Rumor, written, or otherwise.

In contrast, new arts are created all of the time based on improvisation, social, environmental, or economic change, and in combining, deleting or distorting various current Martial Arts styles. Not that im claiming this to be inherently good or bad, I am just saying it happens. When it does, the "creator" normally is forward and truthful about its design and his/her intentions, so there is a trust and understanding even if you agree with that instructor's methods or not.

IMO, this it what I see this instructor doing (i.e. to combine a little of the best of what he knows) however, then trying to pass it off as something its not. Not the type person I would train from, sad to say.

Good Luck with your training. I hope everything works out.

 

[WLMantisKid]

Just to interject...
My sifu went through the "sifu training program" of Wah Lum and it took him 6 years, at 8 hours a day every day to become qualified enough to teach the system. Teaching in most Mantis school requires you to be very proficient in many of the weapons (maybe all of them... and theres 32).

and by a rough estimate, it would take 15 years at 6 hours a week to learn everything in the Wah Lum Mantis system. There's loads of empty hand forms, 2 man forms, weapon forms, 2 man weapon forms, etc. etc. plus all the advanced stuff to keep you VERY busy for a VERY long time.

 

[Keaka o Kanaka]

http://www.completemartialarts.com/whoswho/halloffame/genelebell.htm

 

[RHD]

http://www.completemartialarts.com/whoswho/halloffame/genelebell.htm

Does Gene LeBell support your sifu's claims? Or are they just show biz industry friends? I still wonder about those no holds barred underground fights in his teens. What a brutal childhood :wink2:

Why doesn't he come online here and give us some info to back up his claims?
Mike

 

[aNadia]

What had started out as curiousity seems to have changed into some sort of competition. Why would I waste my time asking my sifu such a large question for a person I will never meet, never know, and therefore I do not see it worth my time of my life to do a favor for someone I'm sorry to say I do not care very much for. If all you want to do is contradict everything we have to say, then just mind your own business already. I have no desire whatsoever to help people with such a negative, cocky attitude. Would you? Would you keep your patience with how most of you are approaching us? You think you have the right to disrespect us and our sifu based on your knowledge of martial arts? Are you a master? do you teach kung fu? have you studied martial arts for 45 years? Until you can meet your match I wouldn't suggest to speak with such ill remarks.

Ask your instructor to name EVERY liniage from EVERY art he has "masterd" by at least one generation. Names, schools, organizations, locations, even phone numbers of the most recent

Does Gene LeBell support your sifu's claims? Or are they just show biz industry friends?

Did I not already mention we have never said our sifu mastered any other arts than Yee Chuan Tao? We said qualified to teach. What I'm receiving is that these questions are no longer questions of interest but withering into mockery and reasons to try and prove us wrong. With those intentions, you've lost my respect.

I think its also a sign of something that you feel the need to prove the legitimacy of your sifu. Your legitimacy should be proved by your skill, not by signed pictures of famous people.

Funny you should analyze my friend that way. Do you know his hair color? Do you know his thoughts? Do you know his face, his humor, do you know him at all? If you do not know even these you much less likely would have any idea of how he feels. If we could prove it to you by our skill that would be much easier, unfortunately, you are a bit of a far swim from here.
I respected you once upon a time, 7starmantis.

If any of you were sincerely interested, you would have private messaged me like I've asked more than once.

We had been nothing but tolerant with rudeness. If you're sincerely interested, private message me, or you will not get any answers.

thanks. -Nadia

 

[Bod]

7* I'm surprised you haven't heard of Gene Lebell. He was a catch wrestler, judo player and stuntman and professional wrestler. Quite a showman, but very skilled in wrestling. Definitely a well known in the movie martial arts business.

I've seen the stuff on him on the web, and it al fits together. The man is primarily a showman. The amount of movies he has stunt coordinated is impressive, but the time spent doing so must have precluded him from the amounts of training that would make him 'qualified to teach' the arts in his bio.

I don't think he is a martial arts charlatan per se just not a trad CMA sigung in the classical sense. I think he is using the term 'qualified to teach' to mean 'qualified to teach skills wise' rather than 'certified to teach'.

My guess is that the 23 MAs include judo, catch wrestling, greco roman, folk style and nhb wrestling. That's six for the price of one.

He sounds like a great guy, but you do have to take talk of 88 master lineages with a pinch of salt. Even if he's telling the God's-honest truth as he heard it, it only takes his master's master's creative story telling to knock it down to a 3 master lineage.

Also, when you start making up forms on the fly, you can reset your lineage back to 0. If his art has any trace of Taoist belief in it, then you could trace the origins to cave-men, at the dawn of history. These beliefs are, in some form, really that old, and must have been passed down through many generations to get to us. But when that is all said and done, do you have a system? What does the system mean now, and what did it mean then?

Why isn't Sifu Mike learning from Sifu Rob? After all, Sifu Rob is good enough to create his own style, whereas in Sifu Mike's lineage, no-one was good enough to change it for the past 88-generations. It does seem strange that both strict tradition and innovation appear together in the same school.

The answer would be that, regardless of skill, your teacher is a showman, and probably good at it. Personally I'd give him a go, because guys who have been in the industry that long probably have something to offer.

However, the question "Is this guy legit" means, in the context of this forum, "Is this guy teaching trad. CMA?" It looks like the answer is no.

 

[7starmantis]

Funny you should analyze my friend that way. Do you know his hair color? Do you know his thoughts? Do you know his face, his humor, do you know him at all? If you do not know even these you much less likely would have any idea of how he feels. If we could prove it to you by our skill that would be much easier, unfortunately, you are a bit of a far swim from here.
I respected you once upon a time, 7starmantis.
thanks. -Nadia

Whoa now, lets calm this down a bit. I understand your loss of patience, but be careful at whom you direct your anger. I didn't analyze anyone in anyway Nadia, you seem to have misinterpreted what I said as an attack. I can see where you could do that as this thread has caused some attacks, but it still makes it incorrect. I was not attacking anyone, what I was simply saying is that to prove your legitimacy should not and cannot be done by quoting famous people who have said your legit. The only true way to prove your legitimacy is by your skill, that is how kung fu works, you stand on your own skill. I never mentioned anything about how your friend or you feel, I don't understand why you said that. You can prove your skill level via this medium, videos and pictures and such are very well acclimated for proving skill level.

Having read this last post Nadia, I'm sorry to say that I to respected you at one time, however posts like these do not inspire me to keep that respect. We communicated via private messages, remember, you were very polite and respectful, a long cry from today. I'm sorry you feel the need to be disrespectful just because others have been, I was seriously interested in your art, lineage, and even sifu until now.


:asian: 7sm

PS: I have also sent this to you via PM as per your request.

 

[RHD]

What had started out as curiousity seems to have changed into some sort of competition. Why would I waste my time asking my sifu such a large question for a person I will never meet, never know, and therefore I do not see it worth my time of my life to do a favor for someone I'm sorry to say I do not care very much for. If all you want to do is contradict everything we have to say, then just mind your own business already. I have no desire whatsoever to help people with such a negative, cocky attitude. Would you? Would you keep your patience with how most of you are approaching us? You think you have the right to disrespect us and our sifu based on your knowledge of martial arts? Are you a master? do you teach kung fu? have you studied martial arts for 45 years? Until you can meet your match I wouldn't suggest to speak with such ill remarks.

-Nadia

Touchy, touchy...

Don't ask for me. Ask for yourself. Caveat Emptor.
As for respecting your sifu, we ask questions to establish factual basis to give some respect to your teacher. Your response is to get defensive. We explain why we feel the way we do, based on personal experience, and your response is again defensive, and now personal.

Am I a master? No, I will never claim such a title. Anyone who introduces themself to you or anyone as a master, is the arrogant one, and probably far form the mark on thier title. I have studied martial arts for 23 years, not as long as your sifu claims, but a fair amount of time. I have a decent level of knowledge about my chosen system of Hung Gar, and have studied and researched other Chinese systems, but claim little functional knowledge in them. So, sorry your so easily offended.

Rather than ask about your sifu's background, may I ask about the Yee Chuan Tao system itself? Is it Northern or Southern? The name is Mandarin, so one would assume that it is Northeren. Is is animal based? A Long fist style? Are there many forms? If so, what are the major forms of the system. Are there trademark techniques or tools that Yee Chuan Tao uses? Are the forms linnear or cross pattern? How does one in Yee Chuan Tao transition from forms to fighting? Weapons?

Feel free to ask me any questions about Hung Gar.

Mike :hammer:

 

[RevelationX]

Whoa now, lets calm this down a bit. I understand your loss of patience, but be careful at whom you direct your anger. I didn't analyze anyone in anyway Nadia, you seem to have misinterpreted what I said as an attack. I can see where you could do that as this thread has caused some attacks, but it still makes it incorrect. I was not attacking anyone, what I was simply saying is that to prove your legitimacy should not and cannot be done by quoting famous people who have said your legit. The only true way to prove your legitimacy is by your skill, that is how kung fu works, you stand on your own skill. I never mentioned anything about how your friend or you feel, I don't understand why you said that. You can prove your skill level via this medium, videos and pictures and such are very well acclimated for proving skill level.

Having read this last post Nadia, I'm sorry to say that I to respected you at one time, however posts like these do not inspire me to keep that respect. We communicated via private messages, remember, you were very polite and respectful, a long cry from today. I'm sorry you feel the need to be disrespectful just because others have been, I was seriously interested in your art, lineage, and even sifu until now.


:asian: 7sm

PS: I have also sent this to you via PM as per your request.

I also gave you no disrespect, nor was it intended. I was trying to give you a way to quell the masses with their inqurys, as well as, the possibilty to represent your style, and your teacher, to those who range from curious to skeptical.

Now, some of the replys here may be a little harsh, but most are legitimate questions for people who care with whom they spend their hard earned time and money to acquire knowledge to further thier own Martial and Spiritual growth. You can understand this point if you have ever started training with a teacher to then later find out that he is just there to take your money, and/or his skill level is not where it should be as far as a "Mastery" is concerned.
You then feel cheated, and that your precious time has been wasted.

Now, No one wants to feel that, so do not blame them for inquiring about an off-beat or rare art that few have trained in or heard of. I you feel that it is not your place to speak for your teacher, his liniage, or the art (Which most people could respect), then have him come on to answer any questions, prospective students, scholars, or curious individuals may have regarding the system. If he declines, so be it. You are no worse for the wear, and your teacher has made his decision to not promote the art that he holds so dear.

That being said, Please, be a little more carefull in your generalized accusations in the future.

Anyways, as I said before, Good Luck to you, and Happy Training.

 

[RevelationX]

What had started out as curiousity seems to have changed into some sort of competition. Why would I waste my time asking my sifu such a large question for a person I will never meet, never know, and therefore I do not see it worth my time of my life to do a favor for someone I'm sorry to say I do not care very much for. If all you want to do is contradict everything we have to say, then just mind your own business already. I have no desire whatsoever to help people with such a negative, cocky attitude. Would you? Would you keep your patience with how most of you are approaching us? You think you have the right to disrespect us and our sifu based on your knowledge of martial arts? Are you a master? do you teach kung fu? have you studied martial arts for 45 years? Until you can meet your match I wouldn't suggest to speak with such ill remarks.

Did I not already mention we have never said our sifu mastered any other arts than Yee Chuan Tao? We said qualified to teach. What I'm receiving is that these questions are no longer questions of interest but withering into mockery and reasons to try and prove us wrong. With those intentions, you've lost my respect.


thanks. -Nadia

In regards to this specific quote:

Let me simply change the question a prospective student (or even yourself) has the right to ask someone who they are about to make a large commitment to (i.e. money and time). Instead of the word "Mastered", all you have to do is change the wording around to what you decribed as "Qualified to teach". Now, the question will be more easily answered.

One may then ask for this possible (or current) teacher his specific "quaifications" in each art that he claims to hold this particular level of competentcy in. Each liniage, each instructor, each contact references (i.e. location, school name, phone number, website, etc.)

As stated in my previous post, you do not have to, perform this task yourself, if you feel it isnt your place to do so.
However, the individual who started this thread may feel so inclined, as it is his right to question what he/she may be getting his or herself into. Your teacher now has the option to respond accordingly, or to not respond at all. Either way, the ball is in his court, and his decision will reflect the "outcome" of this thread, including the view of the people monitoring this thread.

To ask this question (as well as others) is also the right of the scholar, the curious, and the skeptical, because it is also their responsibility to themselves to ponder and question any information that they come across so as to make the best conclusion or decision for their own specific needs within their life, and their realm of influence.

This post, as well as my previous, contains no malice or ill intent towards you, or your teacher. It is just a simple question, a statment of fact, and one man's view of the information provided.

Good Luck to You.

 

[7starmantis]

Rather than ask about your sifu's background, may I ask about the Yee Chuan Tao system itself? Is it Northern or Southern? The name is Mandarin, so one would assume that it is Northeren. Is is animal based? A Long fist style? Are there many forms? If so, what are the major forms of the system. Are there trademark techniques or tools that Yee Chuan Tao uses? Are the forms linnear or cross pattern? How does one in Yee Chuan Tao transition from forms to fighting? Weapons?

Feel free to ask me any questions about Hung Gar.

Mike :hammer:

I would be very interested in hearing the answers to some of these questions. It seems little has actually been presented about the art itself on this thread, and I would love to hear more about it.

7sm

 

[Keaka o Kanaka]

Rather than ask about your sifu's background, may I ask about the Yee Chuan Tao system itself? Is it Northern or Southern? The name is Mandarin, so one would assume that it is Northeren. Is is animal based? A Long fist style? Are there many forms? If so, what are the major forms of the system. Are there trademark techniques or tools that Yee Chuan Tao uses? Are the forms linnear or cross pattern? How does one in Yee Chuan Tao transition from forms to fighting? Weapons?

Feel free to ask me any questions about Hung Gar.

Mike :hammer:

I don't know everything about Yee Chuan Tao, but I will happily share all that i know about it. Yee Chuan Tao translates into "The way of one fist" because it was developed by a man who had lost his arm in war. the style has been past on from master to one student for generations. Since it's a family system, it's supposed to be past down the bloodline. When my Sifu was three his grandfather died, and Tiong Leong (i doubt i spelled that correctly) lost his son to illness. Tiong Leong was good friends with Sifu Mike's parents and needed a student, so he took in Sifu Mike. I know this will be hard to believe but most family forms teach you all the animal forms (all from Crane to Reindeer). He also learned all the weapons (first chinese and then later learned a vast amount of foreign weaponry). Yee Chuan Tao's fighting style consists of splashing hand techniques, grabs, pushes, and a lot of wrist locks and joint locks. Right now I'm injured so i only have one arm to use. Sifu mike has been teaching me the same thing he teaches in class just with one arm. i have to go now though. i'm scheduled for surgery tomorrow. i know this isn't much. i'll post more later

 

[RHD]

I don't know everything about Yee Chuan Tao, but I will happily share all that i know about it. Yee Chuan Tao translates into "The way of one fist" because it was developed by a man who had lost his arm in war. the style has been past on from master to one student for generations. Since it's a family system, it's supposed to be past down the bloodline. When my Sifu was three his grandfather died, and Tiong Leong (i doubt i spelled that correctly) lost his son to illness. Tiong Leong was good friends with Sifu Mike's parents and needed a student, so he took in Sifu Mike. I know this will be hard to believe but most family forms teach you all the animal forms (all from Crane to Reindeer). He also learned all the weapons (first chinese and then later learned a vast amount of foreign weaponry). Yee Chuan Tao's fighting style consists of splashing hand techniques, grabs, pushes, and a lot of wrist locks and joint locks. Right now I'm injured so i only have one arm to use. Sifu mike has been teaching me the same thing he teaches in class just with one arm. i have to go now though. i'm scheduled for surgery tomorrow. i know this isn't much. i'll post more later

Good luck with your surgury.

Not a rip, but isn't it ironic that a system developed by a one armed man has a lot of wrist locks? :idunno:

Anyway, When you recove could you give some more infor on the animal forms? I've never heard of reindeer. Actually, I wasn't aware that reindeer lived in China. Does the footwork for Yee Chuan Tao have some common threads or does each animal have different patterns? Also, any idea on the Northern-Southern thing? I am particularly interested in Southern Tiger based forms from a reasearch perspective. Perhaps angry Nadia can provide some input.

Mike

 

[7starmantis]

That is interesting, I've never heard of reindeer either. Another question is about the weapons. Traditionally there are 118 chinese weapons, did he learn all of them and then go to other weapons or was there a certain amount he had to learn?


7sm

 

[Keaka o Kanaka]

Thanks for the wishes of luck. My surgery is finished though my arm is sore. I had to practice Yee Chuan Tao with one arm today. It was pretty cool. I just asked my sifu all the questions that you guys asked...all that i remembered anyway...Yee Chuan Tao is a northern system. It isn't shaolin. The first chinese martial art was something called Yo yin or Jo yin or something like that. Which was a military martial art. This evolved into the taoist martial arts. Yee Chuan Tao being the first. After aspects of Yee Chuan Tao were made known, other taoist arts branched off (tai chi, bagua, etc.). The Taoist martial arts are over 4,500 years old. The Taoist priest were also travelers of the land seeing many things. Reindeer are found in the Gobi desert. There are over a hundred animal forms. weird ones like reindeer and elephant, and scorpion aren't as widely known as the five main animal forms. As for the wrist lock thing, we do some one handed catches with wrist locks and joint locks. They work very well. I forgot to ask about the weapons. Sifu mike has demonstrated a great deal of weapons and claims to know all the weapons in chinese martial arts and all the other foreign weapons he's ever trained with. I hope i got mostly everything. I hope this aids in furthering your knowledge about Yee Chuan Tao.

 

[7starmantis]

Please dont take this as me being rude, but I do have a few questions I would be interested in hearing your response to. Are these lesser known animals forms such as reindeer only taught in Yee Chuan Tao? Its also interesting that yee chuan tao claims to be one of the first and even predating taiji. Do you know any of the names of who developed this system? I mean back when it became one of the first taoist martial arts? Like who is claimed as the founder? One other thing, I couldn't find a lineage chart on the website, do you guys know your lineages?

7sm

 

[Keaka o Kanaka]

Please dont take this as me being rude, but I do have a few questions I would be interested in hearing your response to. Are these lesser known animals forms such as reindeer only taught in Yee Chuan Tao? Its also interesting that yee chuan tao claims to be one of the first and even predating taiji. Do you know any of the names of who developed this system? I mean back when it became one of the first taoist martial arts? Like who is claimed as the founder? One other thing, I couldn't find a lineage chart on the website, do you guys know your lineages?

7sm

I don't think questions of this nature are rude. Feel free to ask so you may learn. There are other styles that do the exotic animal forms too. Shaolins I've seen do crab and elephant. The exotic animals just aren't as widely practiced as the others. Ihave to ask my Sifu who the Sijo of yee chuan tao is. Our lineage chart, as well as a great deal of other ancient antiquities passed down the generations, was stolen. My Sifu can recall back a few generations and knows the founder, but the knowledge of our lineage is completely lost forever. Well, i shouldn't say forever. I'll check into the founder and the Sigungs before Sifu Mike. As of now,I only know my Sifu's Sifu who was Xian Leong (that is the correct spelling) who fled from the communists of china.

 

[grappling_mandala]

Does Gene LeBell support your sifu's claims? Or are they just show biz industry friends? I still wonder about those no holds barred underground fights in his teens. What a brutal childhood :wink2:

Why doesn't he come online here and give us some info to back up his claims?
Mike

Gene Labell is a grappling legend. Doesn't matter where your from, Gene is for real. I don't know if any one person can 'support' another persons 'claims' without either being a member of the same 'association' or 'lineage', or having taken part in the experience themselves....

With that said... I emailed Gene Labell about Sifu Mike Vendrell a couple years ago while researching Sifu Vendrells background before going to Hawaii to meet him. Sifu Mike Vendrell is a Gene Labell black belt. I believe Mr. Labell has only given these to 12 people in his lifetime. Nor is it something that is for sale. Labell is in his 80's now.

Thought that might interest you.

Kind Regards,

Dave Copeland
Portland, Oregon