WSL...guarding the method

[Flying Crane]

Honestly, if you trust your sifu, then I wouldn't worry about it and I wouldn't get too hung up, or even at all hung up, over what someone on the Internet might be saying. And if you don't trust your sifu, then you need to find a different school.

It's a common practice: we've got the real teachings, and nobody else does. Oh yeah, believe what you want, until you meet someone from one of those "lesser" schools who mops the floor with you. People can believe whatever it is that gives them a hard-on.

These politics can be sooooo tiresome, and they will NEVER be satisfied or resolved over the Internet.

 

[Juany118]

Honestly, if you trust your sifu, then I wouldn't worry about it and I wouldn't get too hung up, or even at all hung up, over what someone on the Internet might be saying. And if you don't trust your sifu, then you need to find a different school.

It's a common practice: we've got the real teachings, and nobody else does. Oh yeah, believe what you want, until you meet someone from one of those "lesser" schools who mops the floor with you. People can believe whatever it is that gives them a hard-on.

These politics can be sooooo tiresome, and they will NEVER be satisfied or resolved over the Internet.

I know and I have usually avoid your "typical" politics arguments such as simply "my Lineage better than yours pphhhhppppptt!"

Where I get annoyed is when someone makes a statement as "fact", verifiable sources are provided that contradict the validity of said "fact" and it's dismissed by simple mumbo jumbo like "oh that was an intentional misstatement... Yes over the course of his entire public career" or cherry picking singular statements out of context etc. I think apparent intellectual dishonesty needs to be questioned. If clarification is offered and it is shown to not be dishonest I apologise for my mistake, if they stick to their guns however it needs to be pointed out before moving on.

 

[lansao]

It's an interesting, but not very scientific, approach. Newton screwed himself over with Leibniz on the Calculus for similarly unscientific reasons. He sent Leibniz a puzzle hinting/gloating at his discovery. Leibniz, having solved the puzzle, expanded on and published the finding before Newton did. In life, Newton had the last laugh because he was in a position of authority over Leibniz at the royal academy of science. In death, Leibniz had the last laugh because his approach and symbology became the accepted standard.

Moral of the story, this stuff all works itself out in the end and what's secret today is obvious and transparent tomorrow. Self defense and martial arts are no exception. Well maintained open source software benefits from community critique/development and tends to be more secure because it's security is not dependent on obscurity. Kung Fu is no different.

Open source Kung Fu is actually a project I'm working on (and hoping to draw collaboration from subject matter experts of different arts on).

~ Alan

 

[drop bear]

It's an interesting, but not very scientific, approach. Newton screwed himself over with Leibniz on the Calculus for similarly unscientific reasons. He sent Leibniz a puzzle hinting/gloating at his discovery. Leibniz, having solved the puzzle, expanded on and published the finding before Newton did. In life, Newton had the last laugh because he was in a position of authority over Leibniz at the royal academy of science. In death, Leibniz had the last laugh because his approach and symbology became the accepted standard.

Moral of the story, this stuff all works itself out in the end and what's secret today is obvious and transparent tomorrow. Self defense and martial arts are no exception. Well maintained open source software benefits from community critique/development and tends to be more secure because it's security is not dependent on obscurity. Kung Fu is no different.

Open source Kung Fu is actually a project I'm working on (and hoping to draw collaboration from subject matter experts of different arts on).

~ Alan

Isolation definitely retards a martial art.

 

[Juany118]

It's an interesting, but not very scientific, approach. Newton screwed himself over with Leibniz on the Calculus for similarly unscientific reasons. He sent Leibniz a puzzle hinting/gloating at his discovery. Leibniz, having solved the puzzle, expanded on and published the finding before Newton did. In life, Newton had the last laugh because he was in a position of authority over Leibniz at the royal academy of science. In death, Leibniz had the last laugh because his approach and symbology became the accepted standard.

Moral of the story, this stuff all works itself out in the end and what's secret today is obvious and transparent tomorrow. Self defense and martial arts are no exception. Well maintained open source software benefits from community critique/development and tends to be more secure because it's security is not dependent on obscurity. Kung Fu is no different.

Open source Kung Fu is actually a project I'm working on (and hoping to draw collaboration from subject matter experts of different arts on).

~ Alan

If there was a love emote I would have used it. I drive my wife nuts when I get home on occassion because there is one thing I bring home from work and there is nothing I can do to stop it. I sum it up with the following 2 sentences

"What I 'know' doesn't matter. All that matters is what I can prove."

When your wife asks for your opinion on some matter and your response is "sorry I don't have enough data to formulate one but when I do I will let you know..." Yeah.

Not surprising my Captain calls me "Sheldon."

 

[Flying Crane]

I know and I have usually avoid your "typical" politics arguments such as simply "my Lineage better than yours pphhhhppppptt!"

Where I get annoyed is when someone makes a statement as "fact", verifiable sources are provided that contradict the validity of said "fact" and it's dismissed by simple mumbo jumbo like "oh that was an intentional misstatement... Yes over the course of his entire public career" or cherry picking singular statements out of context etc. I think apparent intellectual dishonesty needs to be questioned. If clarification is offered and it is shown to not be dishonest I apologise for my mistake, if they stick to their guns however it needs to be pointed out before moving on.

What is said on martialtalk, or any and all other forums, isn't going to change the world.

Most people in the world can smell BS when it's shoved under their nose. You don't have to be an expert to get that funny feeling, or to spot someone who is just a little too smug.

 

[Juany118]

It's an interesting, but not very scientific, approach. Newton screwed himself over with Leibniz on the Calculus for similarly unscientific reasons. He sent Leibniz a puzzle hinting/gloating at his discovery. Leibniz, having solved the puzzle, expanded on and published the finding before Newton did. In life, Newton had the last laugh because he was in a position of authority over Leibniz at the royal academy of science. In death, Leibniz had the last laugh because his approach and symbology became the accepted standard.

Moral of the story, this stuff all works itself out in the end and what's secret today is obvious and transparent tomorrow. Self defense and martial arts are no exception. Well maintained open source software benefits from community critique/development and tends to be more secure because it's security is not dependent on obscurity. Kung Fu is no different.

Open source Kung Fu is actually a project I'm working on (and hoping to draw collaboration from subject matter experts of different arts on).

~ Alan

As a funny aside, since it is referenced....

 

[Juany118]

What is said on martialtalk, or any and all other forums, isn't going to change the world.

Most people in the world can smell BS when it's shoved under their nose. You don't have to be an expert to get that funny feeling, or to spot someone who is just a little too smug.

Agreed. It's admittedly a character flaw. I can't turn "work mode" completely off and a couple things, like calling shenanigans, is one of em I guess.

 

[LFJ]

Basically "oh I can explain that because the video has WSL adding an error intentionally to 'guard the method'.".

And that's the truth. Your favorite guy, DP, has said so before. Why don't you look at this thread from 2002. Obviously, I did not just make this up!

Posts from that thread;

Actually Dave Peterson knows the (I think it is 8) deliberate mistakes in the film. WSL was pressed into making the film grudgingly therefore he was not too happy and bothered about getting it all correct and deliberately did some thing wrong.

Another guy who trained a bit with WSL explained;

I remember a student from Germany asking several times about why this or that is different, compared to the video.
Sifu shyly admitted that there where several mistakes and that, the video was not meant to be viewed as a bible, as so many people have tried to.

The first time he ever saw the video was when he was in Canada.
He never really got payment for the finished article, as a result he was disguntles with the end result.

In my opinion the entire video would only be 50 percent correct (rough estimate)

I think you can shut up about this now, as you have no idea what you are even talking about.

It would make more sense to simply not address certain methods in the seminar.

That's exactly what he did!

He often taught common WC ideas taught by the host sifus that invited him out, so as to avoid contradictions and causing embarrassment. He often simply did not show what he learned from YM. That's a fact!

Once again, you have NO IDEA what you're talking about here. So, just stop.

 

[LFJ]

the documented fact WSL worked to refine VT to better function with PB's amputation...

That is entirely your own fabrication!

They answered that before and the short answer is "because that isn't what is passed down by PB. Then you raise the fact that PB's own biography says...

After visits with various teachers, he found, in January 1983, Wong Shun Leung. Sifu Wong accepted the ambitious German than students in the traditional sense. He sat down seriously dealing with the problem of a missing hand and put the training in terms of it.

That quote does not say the VT system was refined or altered in any way whatsoever!

They first sat down to discuss his potential limitations, things that other lineages had previously turned him away for, but the only modification that was necessary was making an attachment tool so that he could hold the pole and knife on his arm. The VT system did not need to function in any other way.

PB's old training partners and sihings who started training with WSL in the 70's share the same understanding of VT.

Your implication is that they all learned a handicapped version of VT. This is excessively rude, insulting, and offensive!

You know absolutely nothing about WSLVT or the people in the lineage.

I don't know what your mission is here, but you need to stop.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Your implication is that they all learned a handicapped version of VT. This is excessively rude, insulting, and offensive!

You are the one referring to it as a "handicapped version". Whether Juany's assertion is accurate or not, he is only asserting that it is an adapted version, not an inferior one.

 

[Juany118]

You are the one referring to it as a "handicapped version". Whether Juany's assertion is accurate or not, he is only asserting that it is an adapted version, not an inferior one.

Precisely. Simply because something is refined to deal with a physical difference doesn't make it inferior in the least and I just don't get why a couple people won't even consider the idea.

The last time I checked people can only teach what they themselves have personally learned and put into practice. It is a fact that WSL changed VT to account for PB's difference so that is what he learned and practiced.

Hell this idea should be seen as a tribute to the both of them but I suppose personal pride and wanting to preserve certain lines of argument are more important that looking at genuine possibilities.

 

[LFJ]

Precisely. Simply because something is refined to deal with a physical difference doesn't make it inferior in the least and I just don't get why a couple people won't even consider the idea.

The last time I checked people can only teach what they themselves have personally learned and put into practice. It is a fact that WSL changed VT to account for PB's difference so that is what he learned and practiced.

Hell this idea should be seen as a tribute to the both of them but I suppose personal pride and wanting to preserve certain lines of argument are more important that looking at genuine possibilities.

You need to quit telling lies!

You have NO IDEA what you're talking about.

The problem with looking at your "genuine possibilities" is that you have no clue what WSLVT is or what history and understanding various students of WSL have/had with it.

How do you think it is that WSL would have taught students before PB with all their appendages a version of VT modified for amputees?!

Is that not the stupidest idea ever??

 

[Transk53]

You need to quit telling lies!

You have NO IDEA what you're talking about.

The problem with looking at your "genuine possibilities" is that you have no clue what WSLVT is or what history and understanding various students of WSL have/had with it.

How do you think it is that WSL would have taught students before PB with all their appendages a version of VT modified for amputees?!

Is that not the stupidest idea ever??

He wouldn't have. After the former, PB would have had to adapt, so would have any Sifu teaching someone, or even just refining what was before. Perhaps you are ignorant of those partially disabled LFJ?

 

[Callen]

It is a fact that WSL changed VT to account for PB's difference so that is what he learned and practiced.

It's important not to confuse adaptation with modification. WSLVT was never changed to fit Philipp Bayer's physical condition. Wong Shun Leung simply helped PB to adapt to the system that he was teaching. If there are any discrepancies in PB's WSLVT it's not because of what WSL taught him, it's because of PB himself.

PB trained with students like Gary Lam and Cliff Au Yeung during his time at the Hong Kong kwoon. Any of the first generation WSL students that trained with PB will tell you that they all did the same drills and worked the same VT core principals together.

He often simply did not show what he learned from YM. That's a fact!

As far as the original topic, it is well known in the WSLVT community that WSL kept his understanding of the system close. He chose when to share it, and who to share it with.

 

[Juany118]

It's important not to confuse adaptation with modification. WSLVT was never changed to fit Philipp Bayer's physical condition. Wong Shun Leung simply helped PB to adapt to the system that he was teaching. If there are any discrepancies in PB's WSLVT it's not because of what WSL taught him, it's because of PB himself.

PB trained with students like Gary Lam and Cliff Au Yeung during his time at the Hong Kong kwoon. Any of the first generation WSL students that trained with PB will tell you that they all did the same drills and worked the same VT core principals together.


As far as the original topic, it is well known in the WSLVT community that WSL kept his understanding of the system close. He chose when to share it, and who to share it with.

A few things. First, the quote I posted where it says that WSL adjusted the training for PB comes from the biography of PB on the web page of one of PB's own school so it is what it is imo. As for adaptation vs modification I think that is really a matter of semantics.

As for doing the same drills, sure they did but if you are missing a hand there is obviously going to be some differences say with a lap sau or pak sau drill. No one said the drills would not be done but obviously practical execution in a violent encounter is going to be different and the overall training regime needs to account for this.

An example is how Sifu Gary Lam teaches Chin Na, ambient only standing grappling as part of closing to hold and restrain the opponent so one can more efficiently strike. This however is only practical if you have two functional hands. So on the GL side you have grappling and then on the PB side when interviewed he says his WSLVT has no grappling.

In either case when they say they teach what WSL taught them they are speaking truth when we look logically at the big picture. Unless of course we want to say PB got his own biography wrong.

 

[LFJ]

A few things. First, the quote I posted where it says that WSL adjusted the training for PB

It doesn't say that! Why don't you contact PB and ask him directly if VT was adjusted for him?

So on the GL side you have grappling and then on the PB side when interviewed he says his WSLVT has no grappling.

GL has openly changed the system and no longer even uses the VT spelling!

You need to quit googling info on a system you know absolutely nothing about, quit lying about people you don't know, and ask these people yourself if you won't take my word for it.

Either way your BS is getting old.

 

[LFJ]

As for adaptation vs modification I think that is really a matter of semantics.

It's not.

Modification is changing the system for the practitioner.

Adaptation is the practitioner working from their own strengths and weaknesses within the system as is.

VT can accommodate a variety of physical conditions without modification.

This has been explained to you before. To continue to suggest PB can't learn unmodified VT is ignorant and insulting.

 

[geezer]

GL ...no longer even uses the VT spelling!

What does spelling have to do with anything? Many branches of Yip Man Ving Tsun use the VT spelling since it was the spelling used by GM Yip. Others use WC, WT, and other variations. In other words, "VT" isn't a trademark of the WSL branch. Just to be clear.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

To continue to suggest PB can't learn unmodified VT is ignorant and insulting.

There's nothing insulting about noting that an arm missing a hand is slightly shorter and has less mass at the extremity. That's just a clear, objective observation. Nobody here has insulted any of the subjects of the discussion. It's possible PB was able to adapt the style to his strengths (yep, there are some technical advantages to that limb, as well) and around his weaknesses. We all do a bit of that (or should, anyway). It's also possible WSL did some of that adaptation, teaching an approach that better fit those strengths and weaknesses. And this is where I get frustrated about you calling all of that insulting, because I would be in no way surprised if the process they went through to make that happen produced some understanding and adaptation that turned out to be useful, regardless of how many hands you have. So, it may be that other students of WSL from that point on learned a better version (or at least from a better version of their instructor) because of the work WSL did with PB.