WSL...guarding the method

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah. brothers would be a better dynamic of family. Than father and son.

I've always had a bit of trouble with this. The relationship in some arts is somewhat father/son (probably more true in the older TMA's), part mentor/mentee (or coach/coachee). In some areas (likely including MMA and boxing) there's a different dynamic. I think the filial sense is somewhat driven by the Chinese and Japanese cultures many of those arts spring from. It can be problematic when it gets out of hand, and can be very supportive and useful when it works well.

 

[anerlich]

The fundamental dynamic in MA is that of instructor and student. I don't see how gilding that with quasi-familial relationships adds anything positive.

A class needs discipline from both parties for success. Adding artificial layers of authority is irrelevant and distracting.

I'm not learning about "life" from any of my instructors, Sifus, or Sigungs. They all have made silly mistakes in life, and have character flaws, as have I. And at least one was a poor role model IMO.

I ain't going to their places for Christmas dinner, they ain't coming to mine. See you at the academy next year!

 

[drop bear]

The fundamental dynamic in MA is that of instructor and student. I don't see how gilding that with quasi-familial relationships adds anything positive.

A class needs discipline from both parties for success. Adding artificial layers of authority is irrelevant and distracting.

I'm not learning about "life" from any of my instructors, Sifus, or Sigungs. They all have made silly mistakes in life, and have character flaws, as have I. And at least one was a poor role model IMO.

I ain't going to their places for Christmas dinner, they ain't coming to mine. See you at the academy next year!

The issue is that martial arts is an emotional journey as well as a physical one. MMA especially because it is really hard. And because of that you are quite often vunerable.

Not exposing yourself to vulnerability hinders your martial arts progression.

If our fighters did not train untill they puked or cried. If they were not scared out of their wits or if they were not devastated by loss. They would not be very good fighters.

To counter that you need to surround yourself with people you can trust with that vulnerability. And be humble enough to accept that you will be vunerable.

You take that journey with people you trust and the concept of family becomes more applicable.

And one of our instructors was invited over for Christmas dinner with a student. Being fresh out of brazil and no family.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The fundamental dynamic in MA is that of instructor and student. I don't see how gilding that with quasi-familial relationships adds anything positive.

A class needs discipline from both parties for success. Adding artificial layers of authority is irrelevant and distracting.

I'm not learning about "life" from any of my instructors, Sifus, or Sigungs. They all have made silly mistakes in life, and have character flaws, as have I. And at least one was a poor role model IMO.

I ain't going to their places for Christmas dinner, they ain't coming to mine. See you at the academy next year!

The semi-familial aspect is, as I said, a holdover from other cultures. That said, I've been to instructors' homes for dinners and hung out with them over beers. And some of my students do come to me for advice beyond MA, but that's because of my experience outside the dojo. As I said, there's nothing inherently harmful in the semi-familial approach, in and of itself. It doesn't actually add any complication or layers of authority - it's still the basic hierarchy of teacher and student.

 

[Juany118]

The semi-familial aspect is, as I said, a holdover from other cultures. That said, I've been to instructors' homes for dinners and hung out with them over beers. And some of my students do come to me for advice beyond MA, but that's because of my experience outside the dojo. As I said, there's nothing inherently harmful in the semi-familial approach, in and of itself. It doesn't actually add any complication or layers of authority - it's still the basic hierarchy of teacher and student.

I think the trick is this. Does that relationship have an origin in actual friendship and mutual respect earned overtime or is it something that has its origin in some form of indoctrination.

 

[anerlich]

You take that journey with people you trust and the concept of family becomes more applicable.

I'll go as far as "team". I will stop short of "family", thanks all the same.

 

[anerlich]

As I said, there's nothing inherently harmful in the semi-familial approach, in and of itself. It doesn't actually add any complication or layers of authority - it's still the basic hierarchy of teacher and student.

If it's still the basic hierarchy, and doesn't add complication or layers of authority, what positive DOES it add?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think the trick is this. Does that relationship have an origin in actual friendship and mutual respect earned overtime or is it something that has its origin in some form of indoctrination.

That is the issue, and why it can become problematic when we have cultural hold-overs like that. In the US, it too often (though probably not the majority of cases) is the latter.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If it's still the basic hierarchy, and doesn't add complication or layers of authority, what positive DOES it add?

I don't know that it adds. It's just another way of getting to the same place.

 

[lansao]

I'll go as far as "team". I will stop short of "family", thanks all the same.

I think I lean more and more with your take on it anerlich. Re-reading what I wrote late at night I think I was being a little overly sentimental in an attempt to make peace.

I think my note on fatherhood was really meant to indicate that for many the relationship gets close and insulting someone's Sifu can trigger responses that are in line with insulting family. In the same breath, people may also be quick to interpret comments as insults for the same reason.

The "let's call each other's Sifus Sifu" was a bit much!

My Sifu would probably say the same thing. I remember once he was like "Alan...? What are you doing in my kitchen? It's 2am and you woke up the baby..." and I was like "Daddy!!!" He gave me a quick closed door sparring lesson that night and sent me on my way.

He changed his locks after that, haha. What a sense of humor on that guy. I'm sure he'll send my key someday, it's only been two years.

~ Alan

 

[Transk53]

I do wonder (maybe OFT here) that those of you are fathers, was it a natural thing that your children would follow you in the Martial Arts? Probably really obvious as a question, but curious all the same.