What to do if people train too hard

[oftheherd1]

I had another situation yesterday - first a guy who I'm better at technically but hes bigger and stronger did his usual move on me which is wrapping his arms around my face until I tap because it feels like my nose is about to break (my friend later told me that is not even a legal move but I don't think this guy knows). Then another guy first arm barred me way too hard and twisted my elbow then neck cranked me really hard so my neck hurts today, I was honestly about to burst into tears and I'm not a crying type. The same guy then injured a smaller guy in an arm bar by going too hard.

I'm going to take a break from it all. It sounds like its a gym of thugs but its not really, it is actually people not realizing they are going too hard because no one tells them.

I'm kind of having a problem understanding all this. The first guy did his usual move? Why do you always stay in, or present yourself in such a usual way that he always goes for his usual move against you? Is there no counter?

Can someone explain to me what a neck crank is? I'm sure I will recognize it with some indication of how it is applied and what it does, but neck crank isn't a term I am familiar with.

@Nev what is your instructor telling you about this? You sure seem to have a lot of problems at that school. Are more experienced students giving you any advice? Are there other grappling arts being taught near enough to you to be worth while trying?

 

[Tez3]

This is the neck crank I know, we don't do it often because of the damage it can cause.
Neck Crank | MMA techniques | MMA Wiki.org

this one I don't know, just found it when looking for a demo to post.
Seatbelt neck crank

I also found this
Neck Crank MMA Injury

 

[jobo]

Tbh you should've been banned for that...you get caught in submissions so you punch someone over it. Like we've already said just tap early you shouldn't be letting your arms get anywhere near breaking

the victim retaliates against a bully and you want to ban the victim?

 

[Nev]

Its not like I stood up and punched him, I was in the neck crank and tapping and said why are you being such a bastard and the tap turned more into hitting. Meanwhile he never let go of the neck crank just to be a jerk really.

I asked my bjj friend today if the nose crushing thing or the neck crank was legal and showed him how they did it and he said no. I'm not sure if it is an actual neck crank, but I get it relatively often in no gi, something like this picture Neck Crank | MMA techniques | MMA Wiki.org however someone gets a gable grip behind your neck and pulls so your neck makes a popping sound.

The nose crushing thing, the guy is bigger than me and gets on top of me and hugs my face - not sure how to counter this, its not like it happens repeatedly as I'm technically better than him so I can often avoid it but it does piss me off honestly. He does it because hes not good at groundwork and doesn't know what to do.

I think there are two groups I am having problem withs -brand new people (who I usually avoid anyway until I suss out if they go too hard) or people I've experienced have gone too hard and avoided in the past, but decided to give another chance thinking maybe they won't be such assholes this time, and it happens again.

I will just have to flat out avoid people I know to be mean on the ground, even if it comes across as rude. If my instructor asks why I can explain they are too rough. If he thinks im too weak or girly because of it well I'd rather that then get hurt just putting up with it and hating the classes. Today I had a much better session none of the mean people were there and I actually had fun.
But I'm definitely not doing no-gi ever again.

 

[oftheherd1]

Oh they can and do. What I mean by fast is not putting it on so that their opponent can have time to tap but cranking it on hard and fast. Beginners are more likely to put techniques on fast than more experienced people. Take an arm bar, where you have the arm on your hip and are pulling it down, operative word for practice is 'pulling', beginners will often yank it down so the hand is on the floor before their opponent has time to tap, then the damage is done. Often it's done because they don't understand how much it hurts when they do it that fast, they need to have an understanding of how to practice.

IT should be demonstrated to begin with so they know. In the Hapkido I learned, we usually demonstrated new techniques slowly, but up to the point they were forced to tap. Right up front they have a idea where to slow down, or even stop if their practice opponent forgets how to tap.

Yes, up to a point speed is a necessity to accomplish a technique at all. But you reach a point where if you don't stop, you may cause excessive pain, maiming, or death. In your second video of your third URL, the instructor even warns people not to do the technique too fast on a practice opponent. That should be taught during the first phases of teaching the technique imho.

This is the neck crank I know, we don't do it often because of the damage it can cause.
Neck Crank | MMA techniques | MMA Wiki.org

this one I don't know, just found it when looking for a demo to post.
Seatbelt neck crank

I also found this
Neck Crank MMA Injury

@Tez3 Does BJJ have defenses against neck cranks of different types? I can think of some like ear pounding or eye gouging which while effective, may not be legal in competition.

@Nav I am surprised in your post #104 that it seems you haven't discussed this with your instructor yet. Frankly, I should think your instructor should see this kind of stuff on his own. But maybe since your aren't complaining he just assumes it is OK with you. Part of learning a martial art should be seeking advice from fellow students, and your teacher.

 

[Steve]

IT should be demonstrated to begin with so they know. In the Hapkido I learned, we usually demonstrated new techniques slowly, but up to the point they were forced to tap. Right up front they have a idea where to slow down, or even stop if their practice opponent forgets how to tap.

Yes, up to a point speed is a necessity to accomplish a technique at all. But you reach a point where if you don't stop, you may cause excessive pain, maiming, or death. In your second video of your third URL, the instructor even warns people not to do the technique too fast on a practice opponent. That should be taught during the first phases of teaching the technique imho.



@Tez3 Does BJJ have defenses against neck cranks of different types? I can think of some like ear pounding or eye gouging which while effective, may not be legal in competition.

@Nav I am surprised in your post #104 that it seems you haven't discussed this with your instructor yet. Frankly, I should think your instructor should see this kind of stuff on his own. But maybe since your aren't complaining he just assumes it is OK with you. Part of learning a martial art should be seeking advice from fellow students, and your teacher.

Defense deoends on the neck crank. In most schools (I think) the cranks are discouraged at lower belts. The problem is that they are sometimes instinctive and white belts do them becaise they seem to work but dont understand the defense or the danger.

 

[oftheherd1]

Defense deoends on the neck crank. In most schools (I think) the cranks are discouraged at lower belts. The problem is that they are sometimes instinctive and white belts do them becaise they seem to work but dont understand the defense or the danger.

That makes sense. Some of the defenses I had thought of might cause a knee-jerk reaction of cranking the neck crank too far. Especially with newer students.

 

[drop bear]

Its not like I stood up and punched him, I was in the neck crank and tapping and said why are you being such a bastard and the tap turned more into hitting. Meanwhile he never let go of the neck crank just to be a jerk really.

I asked my bjj friend today if the nose crushing thing or the neck crank was legal and showed him how they did it and he said no. I'm not sure if it is an actual neck crank, but I get it relatively often in no gi, something like this picture Neck Crank | MMA techniques | MMA Wiki.org however someone gets a gable grip behind your neck and pulls so your neck makes a popping sound.

The nose crushing thing, the guy is bigger than me and gets on top of me and hugs my face - not sure how to counter this, its not like it happens repeatedly as I'm technically better than him so I can often avoid it but it does piss me off honestly. He does it because hes not good at groundwork and doesn't know what to do.

I think there are two groups I am having problem withs -brand new people (who I usually avoid anyway until I suss out if they go too hard) or people I've experienced have gone too hard and avoided in the past, but decided to give another chance thinking maybe they won't be such assholes this time, and it happens again.

I will just have to flat out avoid people I know to be mean on the ground, even if it comes across as rude. If my instructor asks why I can explain they are too rough. If he thinks im too weak or girly because of it well I'd rather that then get hurt just putting up with it and hating the classes. Today I had a much better session none of the mean people were there and I actually had fun.
But I'm definitely not doing no-gi ever again.

For the can opener. the one where he is in your guard. Stick your fist in his throat or eye socket. Then he just hurts himself. I also do this if they start grinding their forehead into my face.

I do MMA so we can opener and neck crack all the time. Lots of neck cranks in wrestling as well.

 

[Steve]

For the can opener. the one where he is in your guard. Stick your fist in his throat or eye socket. Then he just hurts himself. I also do this if they start grinding their forehead into my face.

I do MMA so we can opener and neck crack all the time. Lots of neck cranks in wrestling as well.

Or just open your guard and work to stand up or sweep

 

[drop bear]

• Or just open your guard and work to stand up or sweep

  
  What and miss out on eyegouging a guy with their own technique?

 

[oftheherd1]

For the can opener. the one where he is in your guard. Stick your fist in his throat or eye socket. Then he just hurts himself. I also do this if they start grinding their forehead into my face.

I do MMA so we can opener and neck crack all the time. Lots of neck cranks in wrestling as well.

I had thought to mention eye gouging as well, or ear popping, or twisting the head, or even grabbing up inside the upper lip. But the way Nev describes the other student, and the school for that matter, I would fear a reaction that would actually injure or even kill. Steve's solution, when feasible, sounds better.

 

[drop bear]

I had thought to mention eye gouging as well, or ear popping, or twisting the head, or even grabbing up inside the upper lip. But the way Nev describes the other student, and the school for that matter, I would fear a reaction that would actually injure or even kill. Steve's solution, when feasible, sounds better.

You can eye gouge with a fist. Technically they are eyegouging themselves.

 

[Nev]

I am not sure what you mean by eye gouge, by pushing my fist up into their eye? I think they would get mad. If I ever get angry about getting hurt and hit anyone they say they used a "legal" move so I have no right to complain.

I understand about sweeping but usually its put onto me where they have their entire weight on top of your chest with their fists behind your neck, by this stage it is pretty hard to do anything (at least I find it so). I also think if you attempt a sweep if someone has all their body weight on your upper body and is cranking your neck you could get it twisted to one side and cause yourself an injury.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

yes but judo is not popular and there are not many gyms around...

the one I am in is known for being good. Judo stand up is fine there but we do a lot of groundwork - far more then others gyms I've heard. If I could avoid it would probably be okay.

That sounds more like the way I trained Judo back in the 80's. We tended to split time between stand-up and ground work. I prefer that format, personally - Judo has some excellent ground tools.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah but these are all beginners no beginners going to be able to get a submission that fast

Not true. They sometimes stumble into a submission with too much weight or force, and while an experienced partner can dampen the entry to buy time, someone relatively inexperienced can easily be surprised by it. One moment there's almost no pressure, the next moment there's pain.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Oh they can and do. What I mean by fast is not putting it on so that their opponent can have time to tap but cranking it on hard and fast. Beginners are more likely to put techniques on fast than more experienced people. Take an arm bar, where you have the arm on your hip and are pulling it down, operative word for practice is 'pulling', beginners will often yank it down so the hand is on the floor before their opponent has time to tap, then the damage is done. Often it's done because they don't understand how much it hurts when they do it that fast, they need to have an understanding of how to practice.

Agreed. Of all the over-cranked shoulders and wrists I've seen in class, easily 95% of them were caused by students in their first few months of training.

 

[Tez3]

Agreed. Of all the over-cranked shoulders and wrists I've seen in class, easily 95% of them were caused by students in their first few months of training.

One of the best I've seen was actually the person putting on the arm bar hurting themselves. It was the arm bar where you have your legs across their upper body ( or throat lol) their arm between your legs and you 'pull' down to do the arm bar ( the one I mentioned before) and you can get your opponents hand to touch the floor, anyway we always teach taking the opponents arm across your hip to get a better result and to save what happened to one lad, he had the arm straight, the hand was in line with his chin as it were, he cranked the arm hard and fast, arching his body with the effort. However the arm he was doing it to went straight up across his genitals and oh he did shout and drop the arm quickly.

 

[MA_Student]

Its not like I stood up and punched him, I was in the neck crank and tapping and said why are you being such a bastard and the tap turned more into hitting. Meanwhile he never let go of the neck crank just to be a jerk really.

I asked my bjj friend today if the nose crushing thing or the neck crank was legal and showed him how they did it and he said no. I'm not sure if it is an actual neck crank, but I get it relatively often in no gi, something like this picture Neck Crank | MMA techniques | MMA Wiki.org however someone gets a gable grip behind your neck and pulls so your neck makes a popping sound.

The nose crushing thing, the guy is bigger than me and gets on top of me and hugs my face - not sure how to counter this, its not like it happens repeatedly as I'm technically better than him so I can often avoid it but it does piss me off honestly. He does it because hes not good at groundwork and doesn't know what to do.

I think there are two groups I am having problem withs -brand new people (who I usually avoid anyway until I suss out if they go too hard) or people I've experienced have gone too hard and avoided in the past, but decided to give another chance thinking maybe they won't be such assholes this time, and it happens again.

I will just have to flat out avoid people I know to be mean on the ground, even if it comes across as rude. If my instructor asks why I can explain they are too rough. If he thinks im too weak or girly because of it well I'd rather that then get hurt just putting up with it and hating the classes. Today I had a much better session none of the mean people were there and I actually had fun.
But I'm definitely not doing no-gi ever again.

That's rubbish if you're in a tight neck crank you're not going to be able to be any position to talk or punch and the guys doing something you can't defend...seems like he's pretty good to me. This just sounds to me like you're having ego problems to me

 

[Tez3]

a tight neck crank

The OP didn't say it was a tight neck crank just that he wouldn't let go when she tapped, which is a jack move by most people's standards.

No, no ego problem from the OP at least.

 

[JR 137]

@Nev
In all of this, I have to ask...
Where's the chief instructor? What's his/her view on the matter? It's the CI's job to set the tone and enforce said tone. Just as it's the boss's job to keep a workplace from getting out of control.

Have you addressed your concerns to the CI? If you haven't, what's stopping you from doing so?

If he/she's fine with how things are going and thinks it's all in your head or you're the problem, the school isn't the right place for you. If he/she isn't aware there's a problem, he/she can't exactly fix it.

I don't mean to sound condescending, but complaining to us isn't going to change anything. You've tried that. Complaining to the people doing it isn't going to change anything. You've tried that too.

Bring it up to the CI. If you get a satisfactory result, stay. If not, leave. Or deal with it. Don't make it more complicated than it truly needs to be. You're obviously not happy with the current situation, so something needs to change.