Would you label this a spinning back kick or side kick or hybrid?

[jobo]

Then you agree that it is a back kick and not a side kick since I'm hardly spinning but I do turn around. Good. You refuted yourself.

ive been undecided and said so, its either a spinning side kick or a very badly done spinning back kick, the lack of kicking backwards being the main issue

 

[Acronym]

I'm a karateka who thinks it's not a back kick because of the position of the leg and foot, the back will turn to the target in a number of spinning kicks, the act of spinning means your back will be to the target at some point hence the gentlemen arguing over the speed etc.
I don't know if that's a back kick in any other style, I'll stick to my 40 years experience in karate.

Using your back as a main resource for a side kick means you aren't doing it right. That's why it's either a back kick or a hybrid in my book.

 

[jobo]

The half turn doesn't but the technique does, and the technique is usually drilled turning around rather than already standing with the back to the target

well that depends on the context of the dojo, for sports application particularly tkd sports, you almost never going to get someone attacking from behind, from an sd concept they its fairly likely so should be drilled

 

[Acronym]

ive been undecided and said so, its either a spinning side kick or a very badly done spinning back kick, the lack of kicking backwards being the main issue

I am kicking backwards enough for it to be a back recruiting technique

 

[Acronym]

well that depends on the context of the dojo, for sports application particularly tkd sports, you almost never going to get someone attacking from behind, from an sd concept they its fairly likely so should be drilled

If I simply wrote back kick, I would start with my back towards the target. The english term we use in TKD is spinning back kick or side kick whenever there is a turn.

 

[jobo]

I am kicking backwards enough for it to be a back recruiting technique

stand a couple of feet from a wall behibd you and kick it, youl notice your knee is facibg downwards, that is a back kick,

 

[Acronym]

stand a couple of feet from a wall behibd you and kick it, youl notice your knee is facibg downwards, that is a back kick,

I'm saying it's more a back kick than a side kick

Your point about the turn not generating power is mute since this is how the technique is drilled in live action and the turn does give a certain momentum that I don't have in a static position pushing it out.

 

[Acronym]

I generate considerable amount of pull from the twisting and pushing off that I don't have if I just stand in the position.. I think we've been through this..

 

[Tez3]

If I simply wrote back kick, I would start with my back towards the target. The english term we use in TKD is spinning back kick or side kick whenever there is a turn.

Ah, now in karate we start facing the target (fairly obvious not sure why you'd have your back to the target) and we turn to kick, you can jump as well if you wish. I've no idea what you mean about using your back as a resource? Not what you mean about not doing sidekicks correctly either. I am confident I do all the kicks correctly

Instead of looking at how you are doing the kick to decide what it is you should be asking 'what is it for'? Ushiro Geri is translated as 'back kick ' but what it means is that it's a kick you use to kick someone behind you. I've said we turn to kick which is usual but we don't have to, the kick can be done as a straight kick to a target behind you. Slightly different technique but still to kick someone directly behind you. What is your kick for, that usually decided what it is.

 

[jobo]

I'm saying it's more a back kick than a side kick

Your point about the turn not generating power is mute since this is how the technique is drilled in live action and the turn does give a certain momentum that I don't have in a static position pushing it out.

but we are not comparing apples and apples,

sort your back kick out so it looks like a back kick, then practice it to increase power, , with out any twists or embelishments it should produce more energy than the present example,, then if you think it helps introduce twist spin or flowers carved out of vegtables what ever you want,

your then embelishing a sound technique rather than trying to make up for poor technque by adding spin

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

stand a couple of feet from a wall behibd you and kick it, youl notice your knee is facibg downwards, that is a back kick,

It depends on whether you intend to turn round and follow with a punch after your kick or not. A knee side way back kick can help your body to turn easily than a knee down back kick. A knee down back kick can slow down your body tuning.

 

[Dirty Dog]

It depends on whether you intend to turn round and follow with a punch after your kick or not. A knee side way back kick can help your body to turn easily than a knee down back kick. A knee down back kick can slow down your body tuning.

Sure. But once the knee turns sideways it's a sidekick, not a back kick.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Sure. But once the knee turns sideways it's a sidekick, not a back kick.

By using your definition, this can be called as back kick too.

IMO, if you kick back and then turn, that's back kick. If you turn and then kick, that's side kick. But if you turn and kick at the same time, it's hard to call whether that's a back kick, or a side kick.

 

[jobo]

It depends on whether you intend to turn round and follow with a punch after your kick or not. A knee side way back kick can help your body to turn easily than a knee down back kick. A knee down back kick can slow down your body tuning.

maybe, but your giving up power for mobility , which may be a trade off worth making, but thats not why he is doing

 

[Dirty Dog]

By using your definition, this can be called as back kick too.

IMO, if you kick back and then turn, that's back kick. If you turn and then kick, that's side kick. But if you turn and kick at the same time, it's hard to call whether that's a back kick, or a side kick.

I wouldn't call it a kick at all, in the sense of it being useful for fighting. Would have some benefit as a stretching tool, but not really something you would ever do in sparring or fighting.

 

[drop bear]

but we are not comparing apples and apples,

sort your back kick out so it looks like a back kick, then practice it to increase power, , with out any twists or embelishments it should produce more energy than the present example,, then if you think it helps introduce twist spin or flowers carved out of vegtables what ever you want,

your then embelishing a sound technique rather than trying to make up for poor technque by adding spin

That would be two different techniques though?

I mean if you are using a spin to generate power that is fine in a spinning technique.

That is the point.

 

[drop bear]

The thing is a technique is supposed to have a purpose.

So with say a front kick. I might snap it out or push it out or I jab with the ball or the heel. Sometimes I will kink it to the wrong side of the body, sometimes I throw a toesy round kick sometimes I do this gumby looking round kick to front kick thing.

And it all depends on the opening I am trying to create and what I am trying to hit.

And nothing to do with satisfying some sort of label I have given the technique.

So if a spinning back kick gets a bit of sideways knee. But can be justified by resisted testing. Then that can be your spinning back kick.

I don't understand how an image debate trumps a substance debate.

 

[Earl Weiss]

To an extent the discussion seems to be akin to debating how many Angels can fit on the head of a Pin. What has not been addressed so far is perhaps the "Why" . but first we need to define terms. Before an intelligent discussion can be had people first need to agree on how terms are defined.
There are no universally accepted definitions as to what constitutes a side kick versus a back kick or delineates one from the other. Perhaps a starting point would be that if your hips are equidistant from the target behind you this is a back kick. If the hips are rotated 90 degree so one is as close as possible to the target and the other as far as possible so you are facing sideways, this is a side kick. Now, we can argue (or not) about at what degree of rotation does one become the other, 1 Degree... 11 Degrees etc. Now with that long intro and naturally falling upon some Chang Hon distinctions the primary application for the side kick is against an opponent to the side and the Back Kick is for an opponent to the rear. all of which is variable by re orienting your body to the opponent to do the kick. BUT we need to keep in mind, unlike sport applications TMA has a goal of also preparing for the possibility of Multiple opponents anywhere around you, and the body orientation of the Back Kick allows a person to also maintain a focus on an opponent placed in the opposite direction. This type of scenario - technique after a back kick to someone 180 degrees from the kick target is found in the Chang Hon Patterns. (I will let others speak to other system. )

 

[dvcochran]

its very easy, particularly if your not kicking people very often or at all, to get abstracted from the purpise of a kick into the form of the kick, with out necessarily considering it purpose as prime.

and 5hats the way this is going.

the purpose of a kick is first to make contact, if that dorsnt happen any thing else is irelivant , and then to hurt them or at least cause enough worry about hurt to distract them whilst you do something else

the problem with spin kicks in general and this one in particular, is the extra movement substanialy reduces the likelyhood of making contract whilst not giving much if any extra umph and extra umph is no use if you dont make contqct.

so the whole question of is this a good spin kick need to be considered against, why are you doing a spin kick at all

if as seems likely its because of deficiences in his side kick or is it a back kick ? then thats the anwer right there,

now my hip issues means there, are some kicks i cant do, either at all or at least with any thing like good form enough to hurt , so i dont, they are dangerous to me
and other kicks that i do that arnt at all in the karate manual, that i do, just and only because they fit the criteria above

this had lead to some intresting chats with my instructor and other senior students about if they are really poor form karate or not karate at all, i care little, do they hit and do they hurt, yes, they will do for me

For various justifiable reasons, by your own admission you have greatly reduced to selection of kicks available to you. Which is fine and done by everyone for one reason or another.
But to then arbitrarily bash a kick because it doesn't work well for You it not good. Take the spinning kick in the OP.

If the average person practiced that kick as often as they practiced say a generic front kick it would at the very least be useful.

To drill down a litter further; a person who began training in their earlier years who practiced the same kick with frequency will have made it a very effective kick.

Drill down further still and you can see that competitive and elite fighters use this kick often Because of it's effectiveness. It is a recorded fact that many people can throw a spinning side faster than most people can throw a front kick. The rotational velocity greatly increases speed and power.
A lot of the refinement is in the spatial alignment. It simply takes some people more time to get comfortable with the spinning motion than others. Some people never really get comfortable with it.
Add to this the sheer number of variations in just the kick shown in the OP and it has great value in almost every situation.

Now, it a person never practices the kick or for whatever reason (other than laziness) cannot perform the kick well then by all means it does not need to be in their tool bag if/when they really need a good kick.

 

[dvcochran]

Okay. But that doesn't seem to change my conclusion. If two bodies starting from the same situation experience the same acceleration, and one of them is under that acceleration longer, it will be going faster.

That would be correct. But I am not certain you originally made the comparison of two entities under identical conditions except accel time.