Breaking down the spinning wheel kick

[pdg]

I will leave it to Shotokan experts to elaborate but have seen much discussion about original Shotokan stances and those who feel they follow those parameters s being much shorter than what is often currently practice. Some Allude to Funakoshi's son as having lengthened them.

Fair point - I have limited exposure to Shotokan.

I'll retrospectively alter my wording to "like Shotokan that I've seen performed".

 

[Gnarlie]

Because the body turns / Spins. Those words are synonyms.
spin
spin/
verb

1. 1.
   turn or cause to turn or whirl around quickly.
   "the girl spun around in alarm"
   synonyms: revolve, rotate, turn

It's no more of a spin or turn than any other forward kick from the back leg though. It's not logical at all.

Dollyo chagi tends to be translated as turning kick and anything that shows the back seems to pick up the word spin, whether there is actually any revolution involved or not.



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[Dirty Dog]

Did you accidentally transpose ITF and MDK when mentioning distance between feet? Way back when we were MDK only, (no WTF, KKW affiliation), long, deep stances were a staple. To me more modern KKW stances a very short (walking stance), do not "look" as good, and have no value for conditioning.
You guys ever use the term horse riding stance?

Nope. No transposition, intentional or accidental. In part, this will depend on which stance you're talking about. I was specifically talking about the ITF L stance compared to the KKW and MDK back stances.

ITF L stance:

KKW back stance

MDK back stance



The MDK front stance, on the other hand, is both longer and wider than the KKW front stance.

 

[dvcochran]

Nope. No transposition, intentional or accidental. In part, this will depend on which stance you're talking about. I was specifically talking about the ITF L stance compared to the KKW and MDK back stances.

ITF L stance:

KKW back stance

MDK back stance

View attachment 21434

The MDK front stance, on the other hand, is both longer and wider than the KKW front stance.

It appears from these photos the KKW stance truly has the weight shifted to the back leg. The MDK photo looks typical of what you see in a person doing a Taeguek poomse. Knees barely bent if at all.
Grand Master Seoung Eui Shin teaches with some variation. When practicing forms, Pyong An and Palgwe, we widen or lengthen stances considerably. Foot relationship the same. The premise being a longer, more elegant pattern. In repetitive practice drills it gives the legs a very good workout, improving balance and strength. When sparring we shorten the stance and subsequent practice technics. The ITF stance is close in width but is standing pretty high.
I think I see you reference MDK often. Which example(s) do you primarily teach?

 

[dvcochran]

Me either. They both move through 180 from stance to target. How can that be a spin?

Add in that the back kick path is linear moving out from the kickers centre. Where is the spin?


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Do you rotate the body? In the context, rotate and spin are the same. Your back shoulder becomes your front shoulder. Ala spin. If I am incorrect. please give your technical of a spin.

 

[Gnarlie]

Do you rotate the body? In the context, rotate and spin are the same. Your back shoulder becomes your front shoulder. Ala spin. If I am incorrect. please give your technical of a spin.

Spin is defined as turning around and around. Typical uses of the word spin are associated with that kind of movement.

Rotation may be only part of a spin.

The difference for me in the context if taekwondo is that if the kick has more than a full 360 degree rotation then I might call it's spin. But even then, if the kick is linear, probably not because it's a misleading word.

Most kicks involve elements of rotation, but don't really spin unless we're talking about jumping and multiple rotations.

In my experience, for example, people who call it 'spinning back kick' usually have a pretty weak technique because the name misleads their perception of the kick.

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[Buka]

"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet."

We call it a spinning back kick. Never thought of it as weak, though. Certainly doesn't feel that way when getting nailed by one.

 

[Gnarlie]

"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet."

We call it a spinning back kick. Never thought of it as weak, though. Certainly doesn't feel that way when getting nailed by one.

It's all relative.

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[dvcochran]

Spin is defined as turning around and around. Typical uses of the word spin are associated with that kind of movement.

Rotation may be only part of a spin.

The difference for me in the context if taekwondo is that if the kick has more than a full 360 degree rotation then I might call it's spin. But even then, if the kick is linear, probably not because it's a misleading word.

Most kicks involve elements of rotation, but don't really spin unless we're talking about jumping and multiple rotations.

In my experience, for example, people who call it 'spinning back kick' usually have a pretty weak technique because the name misleads their perception of the kick.

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It is an endless argument. I cannot totally differentiate even from Webster's dictionary. I know a spinning kick when I am hit by one. I cannot think of an example when turning towards one's back (right leg back turning clockwise) is not a spinning kick. We practice so many variations of turning pre-kick. I agree a back kick can be called linear but nothing else comes to mind but even then you are changing body presentation. I see a lot of spin kicks called side kicks that are linear but really they are back kicks considering body/leg/foot position. Back in the day I had two knock down submissions from spinning side kicks to the mid-section where our front shoulders were literally touching. About 240° in rotation so is that a spinning kick?


spin
spin/
verb
verb: spin; 3rd person present: spins; past tense: spun; past participle: spun; past tense: span; past participle: span; gerund or present participle: spinning

1. 1.
   turn or cause to turn or whirl around quickly
2. noun
   noun: spin; plural noun: spins
   1. 1.
      a rapid turning or whirling motion.

ro·ta·tion
rōˈtāSH(ə)n/
noun
noun: rotation; plural noun: rotations

1. the action of rotating around an axis or center.

 

[Dirty Dog]

It appears from these photos the KKW stance truly has the weight shifted to the back leg. The MDK photo looks typical of what you see in a person doing a Taeguek poomse. Knees barely bent if at all.
Grand Master Seoung Eui Shin teaches with some variation. When practicing forms, Pyong An and Palgwe, we widen or lengthen stances considerably. Foot relationship the same. The premise being a longer, more elegant pattern. In repetitive practice drills it gives the legs a very good workout, improving balance and strength. When sparring we shorten the stance and subsequent practice technics. The ITF stance is close in width but is standing pretty high.
I think I see you reference MDK often. Which example(s) do you primarily teach?

My earliest training was ITF and I still practice (but do not teach) the Chang Hon forms.
We are primarily a MDK school, but do offer KKW certification to those who want it. Off hand, I think about 80% of our active Dan holders are MDK certified. In part this may be because the ones most likely to choose KKW certification are those going off to college somewhere. They're certainly more likely to find a KKW school than MDK.

 

[dvcochran]

My earliest training was ITF and I still practice (but do not teach) the Chang Hon forms.
We are primarily a MDK school, but do offer KKW certification to those who want it. Off hand, I think about 80% of our active Dan holders are MDK certified. In part this may be because the ones most likely to choose KKW certification are those going off to college somewhere. They're certainly more likely to find a KKW school than MDK.

Being MDK, do you teach the Pyong An and Palgwe forms only or do you incorporate the Taeguek forms for all?

 

[Dirty Dog]

Being MDK, do you teach the Pyong An and Palgwe forms only or do you incorporate the Taeguek forms for all?

We teach 6 Kicho (basic) forms and the Palgwae forms as our 'base' material. People who want KKW certification are taught the Taegeuk forms.

 

[TSDTexan]

I'm describing a kick with either leg, directed to the way you are facing.

Here's walking stance:

View attachment 21432

Ahh... Fudo Dachi in the Doshinkan Karatedo..... not to be confused with the Fudo Dachi of Shotokan Karatedo.

 

[pdg]

Ahh... Fudo Dachi in the Doshinkan Karatedo..... not to be confused with the Fudo Dachi of Shotokan Karatedo.

Maybe...

I do know that "walking stance" differs depending which TKD you look at.

Same sort of idea? The same, only different?

 

[TSDTexan]

Maybe...

I do know that "walking stance" differs depending which TKD you look at.

Same sort of idea? The same, only different?

Well start in a front stance. It doesn't need to be super deep like the way Shotokan style does it.

Then straighten the forward lead leg.
But dont lock the legs perfectly straight.

The weight distribution is 50/50.

which would look just like:

This is used in the second Kata that Kanken Toyama created. Kyoku Nidan.

In this for, It is used to bring the torso up high to use in a weight drop as you "fall or fast sink" into a forward stance while simultaneously executing a hammerfist with the leadhand [chambered by the ear, above the collarbone]

If the left leg is lead, then it will be the left hand that strikes, or vice versa.

it is immediately followed with alternating reverse punches without a pause.

So it is a three strike squence.

Left Hammerfist,
right reverse punch,
left reverse punch in a continuous rapid order.

 

[pdg]

This is used in the second Kata that Kanken Toyama created. Kyoku Nidan

Don't suppose you can provide a link to a video?

I found like 10 so far, and they're all completely different...

 

[TSDTexan]

Don't suppose you can provide a link to a video?

I found like 10 so far, and they're all completely different...

Doshinkan is very camera shy... there are only two kata that have been released to the public.
I will film it at some point for you. Or at least that sequence.

 

[pdg]

Doshinkan is very camera shy... there are only two kata that have been released to the public.
I will film it at some point for you. Or at least that sequence.

Cheers.

Feel free to make it private / pm if it's 'not the done thing' to publish it widely.

 

[TSDTexan]

Cheers.

Feel free to make it private / pm if it's 'not the done thing' to publish it widely.

You will only see fudo dachi for a split second.
Because it's a transitioning stance that is held just long enough to have proper posture to strike the hammerfist from.

But when we review the kata, count by count its held for a half a count before the combo.

 

[pdg]

You will only see fudo dachi for a split second.
Because it's a transitioning stance that is held just long enough to have proper posture to strike the hammerfist from

I did find a kata video with that sequence in, so maybe I found it after all.

Is the hammer fist a horizontal strike there?

I'd made the wild assumption previously that it was almost exclusively a vertical downward strike, so I was looking for that being chambered from the ear.

Also - lifting the body to use the dropping weight?

Welcome to the sine wave (aka "that funny bouncing")