Would this work?

[Zero]

Hmmm, just when I thought I'd got the hang of things, I seem to be quoting Tony D and myself now, I always loathed self-quoting : )

 

[Zero]

i can do both. I even said that. But i want that guy secured in a position i control if i can.

if my sprawl fails i can stand up kick him sprawl again.

OK. I guess we have differing views then, or maybe not, on this situation and possibly SD and responses in general. I think we definitely have different experience with SD.

 

[drop bear]

But it's not an MMA competition is it, there's no arm being lifted by the ref at the end. You talk like it's a competition where you can get the win, there are legal considerations too, here at least self defence has to be reasonable, punching the hell out of a guy who is no threat to you is not reasonable, putting yourself back into an altercation because you want to batter your attacker after you have controlled him is not a reasonable thing to do either legally, morally or in common sense terms. If you have never seen anyone punch back in turtle why are you punching him?

just because it is not a competition does not mean the concepts go out the window. In the street these concepts still apply.

i am striking him to prevent him getting that gun. Assault by kicking is an extra offence. Assault by neck crank?

legally what are you comparing this too?

 

[drop bear]

OK. I guess we have differing views then, or maybe not, on this situation and possibly SD and responses in general. I think we definitely have different experience with SD.

ok the last time i fought a weapon off a guy. A mate of mine did kick him in the head. But i was also wrestling with him.

i posted a thread on it.

by the way the mate who kicked him had no martial arts experience at all. So i am not sure who would pay to learn kick in the head.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Agreed with all of that. But...the knee to head from top sprawl is not as quick a technique as the kick to head in that situation. There I disagree.

The actual movement of the knee, sure, but not the overall tech.

Well, yeah, you have to add the time for reaching the sprawl position in the first place. I meant once you are in the top position, then it's as fast of a finish as any standing move.

It's all trade-offs.

Kick to the head: Advantages: might be the fastest possible finish if you connect right, staying upright means you have better mobility and visibility. Disadvantages: If you don't at least stun the guy then you have no control to keep him from standing back up or scrambling for the gun. Also there's a slight risk of him grabbing your leg and taking you down.

Sprawl & control from top while striking: Advantages: Better odds of keeping the guy from standing up, moving towards the gun, or striking back. Disadvantages: Takes slightly longer, decreased mobility and visibility (which might be a factor if someone else is present to snatch up the gun.)

I do think the scenario is a bit contrived. If something like that occurred in real life, I think there are too many variables to call beforehand the "correct" response. I'd probably prioritize getting between the bad guy and the gun and then improvise from there, whether that involved striking, grappling, or some combination of the two.

 

[Zero]

just because it is not a competition does not mean the concepts go out the window. In the street these concepts still apply.

i am striking him to prevent him getting that gun. Assault by kicking is an extra offence. Assault by neck crank?

legally what are you comparing this too?

It is an interesting thing though isn't it?

In that initial situation and immediately delivering a head-kick, if you are successful you have negated the threat and may well be within the realms of legitimate self defence (you have acted immediately when faced with an assailant with a weapon and where you feared for your own safety and life, that may be seen as reasonable). It could get more complicated from a legal, criminal law point of view if you had been seen to control the assailant with a sprawl or control technique and then continued to rain blows hell marry on him, particularly if there were witnesses. Optically that could well play out worse for you when you get your moment in court.

 

[Steve]

Striking him to prevent him from getting the gun is, I think, what ballen was talking about, as well.

I don't know how we got to the point of the sprawl... missed that transition in the conversation... but a sprawl does three things that I would think we can all agree on:

1: It's a solid defense against the takedown. If you don't sprawl, you are probably on your back, which we can all agree is a bad thing.

2: It controls bad guy's head. Where the head goes, so goes the body.

3: It provides a top position from which you can stand VERY quickly.

The rest is getting too deep in the weeds, I think. Will a sprawl always be the best technique to use? Of course not. Is it sport only? Absolutely not. There is real world application here.

 

[drop bear]

Again, I never said or recommended high risk moves, I don't think anyone else here did either.
Now you are talking about a different scenario with gun in hand. I have only been talking about the initial vid of the Op.

how do you finish that fight quickly?

 

[Zero]

Well, yeah, you have to add the time for reaching the sprawl position in the first place. I meant once you are in the top position, then it's as fast of a finish as any standing move.

Thank you.


Knocking the guy over the head with a crow bar is just as quick as the kick also, if you take off that little important beginning part of going to the hardware store purchasing said crow bar and then going back to the bad guy waiting on all fours like some poor impersonation of a sick pooch (if you can "impersonate" a pooch?).
Just kidding with you there Tony D and being a dawk, I couldn't help it though : )

 

[Zero]

Well, yeah, you have to add the time for reaching the sprawl position in the first place. I meant once you are in the top position, then it's as fast of a finish as any standing move.

It's all trade-offs.

Kick to the head: Advantages: might be the fastest possible finish if you connect right, staying upright means you have better mobility and visibility. Disadvantages: If you don't at least stun the guy then you have no control to keep him from standing back up or scrambling for the gun. Also there's a slight risk of him grabbing your leg and taking you down.

Sprawl & control from top while striking: Advantages: Better odds of keeping the guy from standing up, moving towards the gun, or striking back. Disadvantages: Takes slightly longer, decreased mobility and visibility (which might be a factor if someone else is present to snatch up the gun.)

I do think the scenario is a bit contrived. If something like that occurred in real life, I think there are too many variables to call beforehand the "correct" response. I'd probably prioritize getting between the bad guy and the gun and then improvise from there, whether that involved striking, grappling, or some combination of the two.

Just out of interest Tony D, and you may have answered already earlier (and you are welcome to fib but please don't) - but on a gut feel, what would be your immediate response to this (what I agree is a some what contrived) position?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Thank you.


Knocking the guy over the head with a crow bar is just as quick as the kick also, if you take off that little important beginning part of going to the hardware store purchasing said crow bar and then going back to the bad guy waiting on all fours like some poor impersonation of a sick pooch (if you can "impersonate" a pooch?).
Just kidding with you there Tony D and being a dawk, I couldn't help it though : )

What, you aren't carrying the crowbar around with you at all times to begin with? C'mon now, martial arts training is about being prepared!

 

[Zero]

how do you finish that fight quickly?

What fight Drop bear, the one in the separate vid you have just posted now?

 

[drop bear]

It is an interesting thing though isn't it?

In that initial situation and immediately delivering a head-kick, if you are successful you have negated the threat and may well be within the realms of legitimate self defence (you have acted immediately when faced with an assailant with a weapon and where you feared for your own safety and life, that may be seen as reasonable). It could get more complicated from a legal, criminal law point of view if you had been seen to control the assailant with a sprawl or control technique and then continued to rain blows hell marry on him, particularly if there were witnesses. Optically that could well play out worse for you when you get your moment in court.

as opposed to a soccer kick, chest stomp,neck crank?

 

[drop bear]

What fight Drop bear, the one in the separate vid you have just posted now?

any fight.

that one you are not prolonging.

 

[drop bear]

Striking him to prevent him from getting the gun is, I think, what ballen was talking about, as well.

I don't know how we got to the point of the sprawl... missed that transition in the conversation... but a sprawl does three things that I would think we can all agree on:

1: It's a solid defense against the takedown. If you don't sprawl, you are probably on your back, which we can all agree is a bad thing.

2: It controls bad guy's head. Where the head goes, so goes the body.

3: It provides a top position from which you can stand VERY quickly.

The rest is getting too deep in the weeds, I think. Will a sprawl always be the best technique to use? Of course not. Is it sport only? Absolutely not. There is real world application here.

there was a suggestion that there were no grappling options because the street.

 

[Zero]

Striking him to prevent him from getting the gun is, I think, what ballen was talking about, as well.

I don't know how we got to the point of the sprawl... missed that transition in the conversation... but a sprawl does three things that I would think we can all agree on:

1: It's a solid defense against the takedown. If you don't sprawl, you are probably on your back, which we can all agree is a bad thing.

2: It controls bad guy's head. Where the head goes, so goes the body.

3: It provides a top position from which you can stand VERY quickly.

The rest is getting too deep in the weeds, I think. Will a sprawl always be the best technique to use? Of course not. Is it sport only? Absolutely not. There is real world application here.

Maybe Steve, we are all just obviously going to come at this with the primary experience, training (maybe some baggage) of the style or sport we train in most and even despite doing specific SD training on top of that.

Maybe a guy who focuses mainly on ground work is going to see a more immediate threat of a take down from trying to execute a head kick and so to negate that would go for the sprawl and pound option to minimise that risk. And no offense but it makes sense if they are not a well versed kicker to maybe not rate their chances of pulling of the kick in the first place. Maybe a kicker isn't going to be as fussed about that and will just go for the kick - and hopefully if that fails take it from there. Even if the kicker is a good grappler, that option may strike them as too messy or convoluted compared to just the kick.

So there you have it.


Rider:
But seriously though, the kick is the one to go for, please don't go for this sprawl and control thingy option if you find yourself on the street in this situation, particularly if there are multiples about.

 

[Tez3]

just because it is not a competition does not mean the concepts go out the window. In the street these concepts still apply.

i am striking him to prevent him getting that gun. Assault by kicking is an extra offence. Assault by neck crank?

legally what are you comparing this too?

I've no idea what you are saying, 'legally' I put in my post that here you have to use 'reasonable force' to defend yourself against attack, that mean you can attack first btw but it means that once you have controlled the situation you don't then go in for the sprawl and beat the guy up.
'In the street' an expression that actually means nothing. Most 'street' fights I've ever seen were between willing participants rather than 'attackers and defenders'.

 

[Hanzou]

Like I said, a choke is the only way to be sure. Regardless of size, weight, height, etc. everyone needs air.

 

[Zero]

any fight.

that one you are not prolonging.

Ah that fight, I don't even see that as what I would call a fight, but let's not go into the whole "fight" / "SD" thing for now : )

With what ever option is on Drop Bear, it could be a suplex or throw through the shop plate-glass window (a mate of mine, a bloody good judoka (his older brother was a national gold medallist), did just this when he was bull-rushed at a party and he put the guy through some French doors), I am fairly good at throwing people and take downs from years of judo. From my experience of what works quickly it will generally involve a lot of blunt trauma (in blunt I mean from use of body impact, in not having a blade on you), such as that soccer kick to the head you are so leery of or a fist right through their face. I would like to back myself to even being able to rip out some guy's throat with my teeth and tearing out their eyes if it is on and if it is what is immediately needed, if I found myself locked in a conflict with several opponents or someone putting my life in immediate danger.

 

[Zero]

there was a suggestion that there were no grappling options because the street.

Who made such a suggestion, where?

PS: it wasn't the "street", it was some shonky back room of a gym with some passable production skills and the presentation of a supposedly believable SD situation and response.